Isn't beleif in God overrated?

[presser_kun]

I think you are thinking of militant atheists who are so extreme in their views they find themselvs hating God. In their case they would be in a world of hurt, but so would any theist who led an immoral life.

I fear I've not made myself clear. By world of hurt I simply mean this: If there is a God and you choose to not believe, then the part about being condemned to hell is true. Hence your life ends badly.

My overall point in the last part of my last post was that The God issue should not be stressed, living morally should.

I completely agree here. Living morally is more important than believing in God. But that's exactly what many theists see as the problem.

Emphasis on the God issue, i.e., overrating God, leads to distortion of the very thing that God supposedly wants from us: compassion. Gandhi said:

"I like your Christ.
I do not like your Christians.
They are not very much like your Christ."

If that stings, well, it should. Jesus stood for compassion, not theological position.

peace,

press

 

[Bellator]

I fear I've not made myself clear. By world of hurt I simply mean this: If there is a God and you choose to not believe, then the part about being condemned to hell is true. Hence your life ends badly.

It dosen't make any sense that an all knowing, all loving God would be so petty as to condem anyone to eternal suffering for simply not beleiving in him.

 

[presser_kun]

It dosen't make any sense that an all knowing, all loving God would be so petty as to condem anyone to eternal suffering for simply not beleiving in him.

You're right. But many Christians (mostly fundamentalists) believe just that: that an all-knowing, all-loving God sends non-believers to hell.

I used to be an evangelical, so I know. And I even understand the reasoning behind this belief, though I no longer subscribe to it.

 

[Quahom1]

It dosen't make any sense that an all knowing, all loving God would be so petty as to condem anyone to eternal suffering for simply not beleiving in him.

So, it is ok to say to God, I don't believe in you. But it isn't ok for God to say, "well then I don't believe in you."

Seems to me that is an awlful big chance one is taking with eternity. And the suffering could be seperation from that same God.

Kind of like ignoring someone your whole life, only to find out when they are gone, that behind the scenes and unknown to you, they were always looking out for you, and always in your corner. Now that you find out how much they made a difference in your life, it is too late, because they are gone. The result is surprise at how much they impacted your life, an emptiness, and sorrow, because you can't even thank them for what they did.

My observation of people has lead me to conclude that most staunch atheists, are in reality, angry agnostics. Those that have no anger, and say there is no God, actually are kidding themselves. For they have made themselves their god.

It is of course their choice and right. But I believe in Newton's second law, and so far, no one has been able to disprove it.

v/r

Q

 

[Jaiket]

So, it is ok to say to God, I don't believe in you. But it isn't ok for God to say, "well then I don't believe in you."

When there is no reason warranting belief in a diety of any description it would be rather absurd to speak to one, don't you think?

If despite the lack of evidence your all-powerful and all-loving god does exist is it likely it will cast people to suffering for using their ability to reason?

Seems to me that is an awlful big chance one is taking with eternity.

Pascal's Wager has been discredited so many times it deserves no more mention.

My observation of people has lead me to conclude that most staunch atheists, are in reality, angry agnostics. Those that have no anger, and say there is no God, actually are kidding themselves. For they have made themselves their god.

Which observations led you to conclude this?

I have plenty anger, but I will assume you mean anger towards god/s, of which I off-course have none. A person who is angry or hateful of god/s is not an atheist but a raging theist.

From your argument I have instilled myself as a god which, to be honest, mystifies me. Could you clarify?

I believe in Newton's second law, and so far, no one has been able to disprove it.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[presser_kun]

Pascal's Wager has been discredited so many times it deserves no more mention.

Sorry to sound ignorant (and to mention PW again), but could you direct me to a site that explains this?

 

[Bellator]

Those that have no anger, and say there is no God, actually are kidding themselves. For they have made themselves their god.

Are you saying that a beleif similar to your own is absolutely nesessary to have in order to be humble?

 

[Uriella]

Okay, now I'm going to put my stick in the spokes of this wheel. I am a pagan, and I believe in the divine inherent in each and every one of us. I believe that we very much underrate ourselves and our own spark of divinity and that is why we, as human beings, often behave so arrogantly. We try to build ourselves up and be the masters of this planet and, indeed, of the universe if we could. But if we could just see and accept the divine within us, we would not need to treat the earth and the people around us so badly. So, no, I don't believe that belief in God/dess is overrated. I think it is quite the opposite.

Blessings, Uriella

 

[Bellator]

Indeed belief in God is a powerful thing that provides humility and security, which are both spiritual necessities. I am looking for truth however, and in order for something to be considered truth, it has to be backed up by substantial evidence. I have not seen very much evidence for the existence of God, but there is also not very much evidence that he doesn’t exist either, so I don't rule out the possibility. There certainly is something bigger than our universe and something that caused the existence of the universe, but no one knows what it is. If there is a higher power like God, I don't believe it would have the characteristics of a being like we usually give to God. This is just a thing people use to relate to God better which I can't see being reality.

As for the humility and security that belief in God gives people, there are other ways to get them. Things that obviously are truths can make us humble, such as the vastness of the universe-- there clearly are things greater than ourselves considering the vastness of the universe. It is also apparent that there is no reason for my wants and needs to be any more important than the wants and needs of anyone else. I'm not as sure about how to obtain the security one gets from belief in God, but I know Buddhists have figured it out. I think being compassionate can give security in itself because seeing that you are making someone else happy by giving up some of your needs can bring great joy.



I have no problem with other people believing in God, I try to respect everyone's beliefs. What I don't like is when people are exclusivist about their views. Open-mindedness is essential.



2c.

 

[Quahom1]

When there is no reason warranting belief in a diety of any description it would be rather absurd to speak to one, don't you think?

If despite the lack of evidence your all-powerful and all-loving god does exist is it likely it will cast people to suffering for using their ability to reason?

Pascal's Wager has been discredited so many times it deserves no more mention.

Which observations led you to conclude this?

I have plenty anger, but I will assume you mean anger towards god/s, of which I off-course have none. A person who is angry or hateful of god/s is not an atheist but a raging theist.

From your argument I have instilled myself as a god which, to be honest, mystifies me. Could you clarify?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?

Is the arguement that:

1. There is no God? or

2. I don't believe in God?

As a human, how does one know there is no God? On the other hand any human can say "I don't believe in God".

For example, there are Americans who say "I don't believe in the government of the United States". Does that mean that the government of the United States can't reach out and touch the disbelievers?

To say that there is no United States government is a foolish notion. To say I don't believe in the United States government is a declaration, in which one potetentially places themselves at odds with a very powerful "entity". This is either brave or very cavelier.

To say there is no God, whithout evidence to prove this claim, is like saying what is past the four walls surrounding me does not exist. That one has just narrowed the universe to self. That means there is nothing, and life is meaningless. However, those past those four walls surrounding the one, would beg to disagree, and would be perfectly content to let the one sit within the four walls, thinking there is nothing but them.

Me, I just poked my head in to see if the one wants to come out past the four walls...

If not, I'll be on my way.

v/r

Q

 

[presser_kun]

There certainly is something bigger than our universe and something that caused the existence of the universe, but no one knows what it is.

You may be right, but you may be wrong. I know of no evidence to support the idea that there is something bigger than our universe, much less that that something created.

Beginninngs, origins, first causes -- all of these things are quite interesting to me. If you have data to support your thought here, please pass it along to me.

As for the humility and security that belief in God gives people, there are other ways to get them.

Quite true; I agree.

Why do we as a race, a species, persist in pursuing this via belief in God.

That's another thread, I think, and one I'd also be interested in following.

I think being compassionate can give security in itself because seeing that you are making someone else happy by giving up some of your needs can bring great joy.

Not sure about your reasoning here.

Seeing someone else become happy due to your contributions can, indeed be very rewarding. But I don't think it follows that security necessarily or even occasionally flows from acts of compassion. To the contrary, it's possible that acts of compassion can undermine your sense of security, if you give to the point of not being able to feed yourself, for example.

In my view, security, which is absence of fear and presence of a sense of safety, comes from trust, first in yourself, then in others around you. Compassion feeds this trust, but is not the genesis of it, I think.

 

[Quahom1]

You may be right, but you may be wrong. I know of no evidence to support the idea that there is something bigger than our universe, much less that that something created.

Beginninngs, origins, first causes -- all of these things are quite interesting to me. If you have data to support your thought here, please pass it along to me.



Quite true; I agree.

Why do we as a race, a species, persist in pursuing this via belief in God.

That's another thread, I think, and one I'd also be interested in following.



Not sure about your reasoning here.

Seeing someone else become happy due to your contributions can, indeed be very rewarding. But I don't think it follows that security necessarily or even occasionally flows from acts of compassion. To the contrary, it's possible that acts of compassion can undermine your sense of security, if you give to the point of not being able to feed yourself, for example.

In my view, security, which is absence of fear and presence of a sense of safety, comes from trust, first in yourself, then in others around you. Compassion feeds this trust, but is not the genesis of it, I think.

I'd like to know who messed with your CornFlakes...such a pull back, astounding!

v/r

Q

 

[Bellator]

Originally Posted by StarshipEnterprise
There certainly is something bigger than our universe and something that caused the existence of the universe, but no one knows what it is.


You may be right, but you may be wrong. I know of no evidence to support the idea that there is something bigger than our universe, much less that that something created.

True! I guess what I was trying to say is that it does not make sense for us to exist without a cause for that existence. It seems the big bang couldn't have happened on its own. At this point in time, existence is something no one can comprehend.

To say there is no God, whithout evidence to prove this claim, is like saying what is past the four walls surrounding me does not exist. That one has just narrowed the universe to self. That means there is nothing, and life is meaningless. However, those past those four walls surrounding the one, would beg to disagree, and would be perfectly content to let the one sit within the four walls, thinking there is nothing but them.

Me, I just poked my head in to see if the one wants to come out past the four walls...

If not, I'll be on my way.

v/r

Q

I don't understand your reasoning here. I know there is plenty beyond myself in the universe. First of all there is this room, then there is this city, this country, this world, this galaxy, countless other galaxies, and possibly something unknown outside the universe. Much more than four walls

Quote:
I think being compassionate can give security in itself because seeing that you are making someone else happy by giving up some of your needs can bring great joy.


Not sure about your reasoning here.

Seeing someone else become happy due to your contributions can, indeed be very rewarding. But I don't think it follows that security necessarily or even occasionally flows from acts of compassion. To the contrary, it's possible that acts of compassion can undermine your sense of security, if you give to the point of not being able to feed yourself, for example.

In my view, security, which is absence of fear and presence of a sense of safety, comes from trust, first in yourself, then in others around you. Compassion feeds this trust, but is not the genesis of it, I think.

Well, yeah. You thought it through more than me.

 

[presser_kun]

I'd like to know who messed with your CornFlakes...such a pull back, astounding!

Erm...I've read back through my posts, and don't see what I've pulled back from. Not being sarcastic, not at all, just a bit flummoxed.

Could you show me where you think I've erred?

Thanks!

press

 

[Uriella]

Indeed belief in God is a powerful thing that provides humility and security, which are both spiritual necessities. I am looking for truth however, and in order for something to be considered truth, it has to be backed up by substantial evidence. I have not seen very much evidence for the existence of God, but there is also not very much evidence that he doesn’t exist either, so I don't rule out the possibility. There certainly is something bigger than our universe and something that caused the existence of the universe, but no one knows what it is. If there is a higher power like God, I don't believe it would have the characteristics of a being like we usually give to God. This is just a thing people use to relate to God better which I can't see being reality.

I have no problem with other people believing in God, I try to respect everyone's beliefs. What I don't like is when people are exclusivist about their views. Open-mindedness is essential.

2c.

Hi Starship, what you are looking for is proof, not truth. Truth is a very subjective thing, that is it depends upon your point of view whether or not something is a truth. If truth were one and the same thing for each and every one of us, then we would not be having this conversation. And wouldn't that make life boring?

Blessings, Uriella

 

[Quahom1]

Erm...I've read back through my posts, and don't see what I've pulled back from. Not being sarcastic, not at all, just a bit flummoxed.

Could you show me where you think I've erred?

Thanks!

press

You used to believe? Now you don't? I wouldn't call that an error, simply astounding!

then again I might call it an error. But then I'm not you.

v/r

Q

 

[presser_kun]

Hi Starship, what you are looking for is proof, not truth. Truth is a very subjective thing, that is it depends upon your point of view whether or not something is a truth. If truth were one and the same thing for each and every one of us, then we would not be having this conversation. And wouldn't that make life boring?

Blessings, Uriella

Ah. You're right. But one of the "truths" we disagree on is whether or not there is an objective, absolute truth or not. it's the very reason there are different religions at all.

peace,

press

 

[Jaiket]

Is the arguement that:

1. There is no God? or

2. I don't believe in God?

Which am I arguing? Neither really, but "I don't believe in god" is the nearest to my position.

As a human, how does one know there is no God? On the other hand any human can say "I don't believe in God".

For example, there are Americans who say "I don't believe in the government of the United States". Does that mean that the government of the United States can't reach out and touch the disbelievers?

To say that there is no United States government is a foolish notion. To say I don't believe in the United States government is a declaration, in which one potetentially places themselves at odds with a very powerful "entity". This is either brave or very cavelier.

To say there is no God, whithout evidence to prove this claim, is like saying what is past the four walls surrounding me does not exist. That one has just narrowed the universe to self. That means there is nothing, and life is meaningless. However, those past those four walls surrounding the one, would beg to disagree, and would be perfectly content to let the one sit within the four walls, thinking there is nothing but them.

I'm confused, what are you saying here?

 

[Quahom1]

Which am I arguing? Neither really, but "I don't believe in god" is the nearest to my position.

I'm confused, what are you saying here?

Just because one does not believe in something, does not make it unreal, or nonexistent.

v/r

Q

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Just because one does not believe in something, does not make it unreal, or nonexistent.

Im going to have to disagree with you on that one.