Mark of the Beast

[smkolins]

they are not interested in who serves 'God', they want to know who serves Jesus & these are the ones being denied spending money & loans & things to fix or build there churches. ...

If "the government shall be upon his shoulder" and "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end" from Isaiah 9:6-7, wouldn't an identification program of some sort go along with an increasing singular governmental system? Wouldn't the spread of such a system seem to some pov? It could be the system you fear happened a while ago and has already been overrun by the increasing system foretold by Isaiah.

 

[lunamoth]

wouldn't an identification program of some sort go along with an increasing singular governmental system?

Why would this be so? If you are part of the One why do you need to differentiate yourself from anyone or anything? Seems to me like giving up those ID cards would be more meaningful.

just my 2c
lunamoth

 

[Bandit]

If "the government shall be upon his shoulder" and "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end" from Isaiah 9:6-7, wouldn't an identification program of some sort go along with an increasing singular governmental system? Wouldn't the spread of such a system seem to some pov? It could be the system you fear happened a while ago and has already been overrun by the increasing system foretold by Isaiah.

there was no such thing as fingerprinting & eye retna for ID. there is no way possible to do this on a full scale before computers. Part of Is. 9:6 seems to still be in part in prophecy as far as I can see & is talking about a spiritual government not an earthly one, to me.
the world has NEVER been under a one world rule for anything. it most certainly is a reality right this very minute in many countries & those people do face fear, torture & even death if they even speak the name of Jesus. Having it on there ID card just puts them right into the UNWANTED list right from the start.

i think your timing is mixed up but if you want to believe it already happened that is up to you.
i do see it as a gradual crescendo, not something that happened or will just happen over night.

 

[smkolins]

Why would this be so? If you are part of the One why do you need to differentiate yourself from anyone or anything? Seems to me like giving up those ID cards would be more meaningful.

just my 2c
lunamoth

The process is gradual according to Isaiah. Otherwise why would a government increase? Some would be part and some not.

 

[smkolins]

there was no such thing as fingerprinting & eye retna for ID.

Of course not. But the idea of a country knowing it's people, like in a census, is very old. I don't know if it dates back to Isaiah's time or not. And irregardless even if it was totally unknown in his time, the point is that setting up a government that is going to progressively rule the world will require something of its citizens by way of identification.

Part of Is. 9:6 seems to still be in part in prophecy as far as I can see & is talking about a spiritual government not an earthly one, to me.

Now where in this does it say this is not an earthly government?

having it on there ID card just puts them right into the UNWANTED list right from the start.

I think it common knowledge that most places on the planet are hazardous to part of a variety of religions. For example Baha'is in Iran have a long history of martyrdoms.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bandit]

Of course not. But the idea of a country knowing it's people, like in a census, is very old. I don't know if it dates back to Isaiah's time or not. And irregardless even if it was totally unknown in his time, the point is that setting up a government that is going to progressively rule the world will require something of its citizens by way of identification.




Now where in this does it say this is not an earthly government?



I think it common knowledge that most places on the planet are hazardous to part of a variety of religions. For example Baha'is in Iran have a long history of martyrdoms.

[/QUOTE]

because Jesus said it. his kingdom is not of this world though in the world NOW, but not of the world. sorry but it is not an earthly power or national government if that is what you think- i do not believe that & i dont think IS. 9:6 has anything to do with this.

it seems like you think this is no big deal?. it is not just about being murdered or taking a census & it is about going after the remnant of the righteous seed not just knowing what religion you are.

 

[truthseeker]

I think it is an earthly government. CNN doesn't cover everything, you know.
And should it be an earthly government, it would suit the perpetrator that most of those that would have some clue as to the happening would have their heads and eyes stuck in the sky instead of looking directly at them. Why couldn't it be that the writers Isaiah and John (of Revelation) not be aware of a plan among a group to, like Pinky, 'take over the world'? Do you really believe it is not possible? That you actually and really truly do vote for your American President no matter what the international situation may be? Do you really think that an elite would leave the decision to a bunch of 'workers' (modern day slaves) for their benefit? There was a time when it was clear that only those in a particular social status were allowed to vote. Now, it is all an illusion - especially since workers outweigh the elite; wouldn't want anything like the French Revolution/Haitian Revolt occurring again, now would we? We all like to think that we are highly intelligent but everything written in black and white just isn't so. Remember when the layman was not allowed to own a bible? You think the writers of the bible were average folk among society? They were not - they all had high social status. The bits of history that you read was not written by the average Joe getting a break in the town's newspaper.

 

[smkolins]

to the extent it is a government mentioned, whatever the circumstances, I wonder what kind of government it would be? Would it resemble a monarchy? Would it have democratic forms at all?

I wonder if the Bible has any clues....

 

[lunamoth]

The process is gradual according to Isaiah. Otherwise why would a government increase? Some would be part and some not.

How do you get this gradual change out of Isaiah?

 

[Bandit]

I think it is an earthly government. CNN doesn't cover everything, you know.
And should it be an earthly government, it would suit the perpetrator that most of those that would have some clue as to the happening would have their heads and eyes stuck in the sky instead of looking directly at them. Why couldn't it be that the writers Isaiah and John (of Revelation) not be aware of a plan among a group to, like Pinky, 'take over the world'? Do you really believe it is not possible? That you actually and really truly do vote for your American President no matter what the international situation may be? Do you really think that an elite would leave the decision to a bunch of 'workers' (modern day slaves) for their benefit? There was a time when it was clear that only those in a particular social status were allowed to vote. Now, it is all an illusion - especially since workers outweigh the elite; wouldn't want anything like the French Revolution/Haitian Revolt occurring again, now would we? We all like to think that we are highly intelligent but everything written in black and white just isn't so. Remember when the layman was not allowed to own a bible? You think the writers of the bible were average folk among society? They were not - they all had high social status. The bits of history that you read was not written by the average Joe getting a break in the town's newspaper.

Truthseeker, you totally lost me on your post . Why would CNN care about the Kingdom of God? all they care about is the crap that keeps the world screwed up & pretend like we are making some kind of huge progress.

this kingdom is an eternal kingdom with eternal power & glory of the almighty God through Jesus.
not a an earthly president or religious leader with bloodshed & money on there minds.
Jesus would never issue in something like the mark of the beast, that is coming right out of the dragons mouth & the beast supports it.
CNN will be focusing on the mark of the beast as a good thing, but the bible tells us what it is for.
can you please explain what you mean? because if i missed something i need & want to know.

 

[Bandit]

to the extent it is a government mentioned, whatever the circumstances, I wonder what kind of government it would be? Would it resemble a monarchy? Would it have democratic forms at all?

I wonder if the Bible has any clues....

one thing for sure it is not going to be about money & fighting other countries.
that government in Is. is an eternal government that will squash & trod the wicked of earth.
are you really looking for a weak flesh & blood earthly democracy in this?

 

[smkolins]

How do you get this gradual change out of Isaiah?

"of the increase of his government there shall be no end" - seems to refer to growth, expansion, and that it shall have no end sounds gradual to me - if it spread quickly would it not encompass everything quickly? Thus gradual.

 

[smkolins]

this kingdom is an eternal kingdom with eternal power & glory of the almighty God through Jesus.
not a an earthly president or religious leader with bloodshed & money on there minds.

I don't see this. If Isaiah was refering to a heavenly government how could the government expand? It shall grow without end. Where in Heaven could God's will not be done already?!

 

[Bandit]

I don't see this. If Isaiah was refering to a heavenly government how could the government expand? It shall grow without end. Where in Heaven could God's will not be done already?!

then just keep looking for an earthly, material, faulty government, i am not going to try & convince you.

 

[Bandit]

"of the increase of his government there shall be no end

shall be no end as far as i am concerned is an eternal kingdom. eternity has no end. it may have a beginning & a middle but it has no end.
the increase to me is a power above all powers a KING above all kings & that is Jesus & the kingdom of God.

but if you think someone or something else I am not going to try & convince there either. it has actually been an interesting topic, but i am not changing my mind either

 

[smkolins]

one thing for sure it is not going to be about money & fighting other countries.
that government in Is. is an eternal government that will squash & trod the wicked of earth.
are you really looking for a weak flesh & blood earthly democracy in this?

No. But it could be that another way this government could grow is to more faithfully reflect God's will, on earth as it is in heaven, more and more completely, once started by Jesus' Return.

And don't forget it isn't just the government that increases - peace also increases. That speaks of a transition from less peace to more, and at least partly in relation to the fact that the government established by God grows in parallel - that is to say both grow.

But in some ways it seems to clearly reflect a monarchy - there is a King, no? But perhaps beyond that - the seems to be a council of elders - similar to a Congress at least in concept, and a leader of the elders as well. But I wonder if there are other references.....

 

[smkolins]

i am not going to try & convince you.

I've been doing email discussions about religion for about 15 years and I have NEVER seen one person convince another.

At most I've seen people learn. Is that so much to ask? Why always defensiveness of being convinced of something?!

 

[smkolins]

shall be no end as far as i am concerned is an eternal kingdom. eternity has no end. it may have a beginning & a middle but it has no end.
the increase to me is a power above all powers a KING above all kings & that is Jesus & the kingdom of God.

I'll grant that's one possibility, or even one part of the combination of ways this reference can be understood. But it seems to me what is being spoken of here is a big change in the end and I can't see Heaven changing that much, and while a kind of eternity can be in this world too, that doesn't speak of a progresive, establishment, of real change such as an increasing government established by God, and a peace that grows in being of His will. That I don't see it doesn't make it not so, but I have a mind and judgement, and use it to seek understanding, and make my mind up as I go along.

 

[Bandit]

I've been doing email discussions about religion for about 15 years and I have NEVER seen one person convince another.

At most I've seen people learn. Is that so much to ask? Why always defensiveness of being convinced of something?!

well that is pretty much what i said. you are convinced of something & so am I. you keep looking for what you are looking for & i will do the same. IOW, it would be pointless for me to add any more from here. i dont see that as being defensive, i see it more as unprofitable. sorry but i am not one to keep going over the same thing & asking questions for very long in a group discussion like this because it creates confusion. maybe if you want to talk about it, one on one someday, smkolins, that would be fine.

 

[smkolins]

here's an interesting quote about governments - 2nd Peter 9-10:

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled...."

I don't see it explicitly related to the government spoken of by Isaiah, but still, interesting....