Purgatory

Okay, so that is why you don't, shouldn't, or couldn't, or whatever - believe in purgatory. Alright.

I was hoping to know what purgatory is from those who understand and that was that.

So then Mee, is that what the New Paradise on Earth is? Humankind's purgatory - since one can't get into heaven or hell at all? Why is there a heaven and no hell? And has God already swept up all the 144,000, so nobody else has any hope at all of going to heaven?
 
mee said:
dont worry , God has made sure that the books he wants to be there ,are there ,so no worries it is complete
The idea of atoning for one’s sins by suffering after death, or even in this present life, is foreign to the Scriptures. When Jesus cured the paralytic brought to him, Jesus simply said: "Take courage, son; thy sins are forgiven thee." That was it. Jesus said nothing about his needing to suffer for them. Likewise when he showed his disciples that "repentance and remission of sins" was to be preached, he said nothing about doing penance or suffering later for one’s sins. And so also the apostle Peter counseled the Jews: "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," but again nothing about penance or suffering for sins. Testifying to the same truth, the apostle John wrote: "If we walk in the light as he also is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin." If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, that leaves none to be cleansed by purgatorial fires.—Matt. 9:2; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 1 John 1:7
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That is your opinion. Others who read different Bibles have their opinions as well. The Latin Vulgate still has the same books that it had prior to the protestant reformation.

Nothing is complete, not even the Bible. That is not the act nor fault of God, but the actions of man who for one reason or another, decided to change things to better suit their own opinions.

What is complete LIFE, is simply that God will reveal to each of us what we need to have revealed for our lives growing closer to God.

I submit that the only people who have a personal understanding of purgatory, are those who have been raised within the church that speaks and considers it a reality. Anyone else is "on the outside looking in" so to speak.

However purgatory whether real or not, is not a show stopper. The only truth that is paramount is that Jesus is our salvation, and the way.

v/r

Q
 
mee said:
dont worry , God has made sure that the books he wants to be there ,are there ,so no worries it is complete
The idea of atoning for one’s sins by suffering after death, or even in this present life, is foreign to the Scriptures. When Jesus cured the paralytic brought to him, Jesus simply said: "Take courage, son; thy sins are forgiven thee." That was it. Jesus said nothing about his needing to suffer for them. Likewise when he showed his disciples that "repentance and remission of sins" was to be preached, he said nothing about doing penance or suffering later for one’s sins. And so also the apostle Peter counseled the Jews: "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," but again nothing about penance or suffering for sins. Testifying to the same truth, the apostle John wrote: "If we walk in the light as he also is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin." If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin, that leaves none to be cleansed by purgatorial fires.—Matt. 9:2; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 1 John 1:7
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Yes Jesus forgives us and along with forgiveness comes relief from eternal punishment but it doesn't free us from the temporal. This is obvious if one looks at baptism. Baptism forgives us of the guilt of Original sin in doing so it frees us from then eternal consequences of it (aka gives the possibility of resurrection and heaven and keeps us from Hell whether you view that as nonexistence or complete separation from God forever) but our sinful nature, our first death, the pains of childbirth, our need to toil in order to stay alive all remain. These are the temporal consequences. If you think these are gone after baptism then there is something wrong with you or no one ever is really baptized. Consider this analogy. A child is playing ball in the house and breaks a lamp. His mother may forgive him and not punish him for it but that doesn't mean the lamp doesn't need to be replaced nor that she will trust him with a baseball again. If one dies before these consequences have been rectified they don’t get off Scot free they still have to fix them before they are perfect and able to stand before the throne of God.



LIFE



These are the books that have been removed:



And in summation am I the only one who found “dear Mee” funny?:)
 
JJM said:
Yes Jesus forgives us and along with forgiveness comes relief from eternal punishment but it doesn't free us from the temporal. This is obvious if one looks at baptism. Baptism forgives us of the guilt of Original sin in doing so it frees us from then eternal consequences of it (aka gives the possibility of resurrection and heaven and keeps us from Hell whether you view that as nonexistence or complete separation from God forever) but our sinful nature, our first death, the pains of childbirth, our need to toil in order to stay alive all remain. These are the temporal consequences. If you think these are gone after baptism then there is something wrong with you or no one ever is really baptized. Consider this analogy. A child is playing ball in the house and breaks a lamp. His mother may forgive him and not punish him for it but that doesn't mean the lamp doesn't need to be replaced nor that she will trust him with a baseball again. If one dies before these consequences have been rectified they don’t get off Scot free they still have to fix them before they are perfect and able to stand before the throne of God.



LIFE



These are the books that have been removed:
And in summation am I the only one who found “dear Mee” funny?:)
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i am even funnier in the flesh its not a pretty sight:eek:
 
Just have to throw my 2 cents out as a non catholic.

The Protestant church has objected to the doctrine of Purgatory by stating that this teaching denies the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. To say that our sins are expiated by our suffering is an insult to the cross of Christ since it says that the cross was not sufficient to cleanse us of our sins. It says that we must suffer, that we must do something to have our sins fully cleansed. Instead, the Protestants maintain that Jesus’ sacrifice alone is what justifies and removes from us all guilt. We look to the cross and to the cross alone for the complete forgiveness of our sins and, though our works will one day be judged, we have passed out of condemnation. Our works reflect on rewards in heaven, not to get us to heaven. Jesus bore all our sins. There are no sins left for purgatory to cleanse because it was all done by Jesus on the cross. This is why Jesus said, "It is finished,".

That there is no bearing in the Bible as I know it also affects these feelings. I can not tell anyone they are wrong(well anyone that knows me knows thats not true) but I wont about purgatory.

To me there is no sin that Christ did not fully cleanse from me that Purgatory can.
 
Dor said:
Just have to throw my 2 cents out as a non catholic.

The Protestant church has objected to the doctrine of Purgatory by stating that this teaching denies the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. To say that our sins are expiated by our suffering is an insult to the cross of Christ since it says that the cross was not sufficient to cleanse us of our sins. It says that we must suffer, that we must do something to have our sins fully cleansed. Instead, the Protestants maintain that Jesus’ sacrifice alone is what justifies and removes from us all guilt. We look to the cross and to the cross alone for the complete forgiveness of our sins and, though our works will one day be judged, we have passed out of condemnation. Our works reflect on rewards in heaven, not to get us to heaven. Jesus bore all our sins. There are no sins left for purgatory to cleanse because it was all done by Jesus on the cross. This is why Jesus said, "It is finished,".

That there is no bearing in the Bible as I know it also affects these feelings. I can not tell anyone they are wrong(well anyone that knows me knows thats not true) but I wont about purgatory.

To me there is no sin that Christ did not fully cleanse from me that Purgatory can.
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From a catholic perspective:

We are Joseph in the well...

We don't go straight to our reward, even if we are righteous. Joseph (a most innocent), had some issues to deal with. It humbled and strengthened him.

Let me RE-EMPhasise, from a catholic perspective...

v/r

Q
 
Q didnt he also say

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Im not saying there is no purgatory cause I dont know everything. But wasnt his death enough to cleanse a man of his sins.
 
Dor said:
Q didnt he also say

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Im not saying there is no purgatory cause I dont know everything. But wasnt his death enough to cleanse a man of his sins.
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Agreed. However that man did something different. There was some kind of significant difference that was being presented to us (the future us). I still do not understand it, except Jesus did not say thou shalt be with me in heaven, but rather in paradise. Abraham and Elijah are also noted as being in Paradise with the Lord, when the rich man tries to get a favor.

See, I don't quite understand the complexities of this "game" either.

Being from the North, and used to hockey rules, I understand the penalty box concept. But try to explain it to some one who has never played Hockey on ice, is...rough at best.

Best way to teach, is to get one on skates...sometimes that ain't going to happen.

:rolleyes:

v/r

Q
 
I have thought about purgatory too, and I am afraid of it, because my catholic friends tell me you will suffer there alot, just almost like in Hell. I bought a Catholic Catechism and it says that all the suffering you do on earth is a way to take off of your time in purgatory, so you should be thankfull. I do not want to go to Purgatory. But now you all have me worried about it.
 
Chalice said:
I have thought about purgatory too, and I am afraid of it, because my catholic friends tell me you will suffer there alot, just almost like in Hell. I bought a Catholic Catechism and it says that all the suffering you do on earth is a way to take off of your time in purgatory, so you should be thankfull. I do not want to go to Purgatory. But now you all have me worried about it.
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I wouldn't sweat the small stuff Chalice. The only goal we should have in mind is to keep seeking the will of the Creator. Purgatory is not what it used to be, even among Catholics.

It is not hell, nor a place of suffering. Most people say it does not exist. Others have never heard of it.

Actually, if you think about it, purgatory is more for the living than the dead. It causes Catholics to get down regularly on their knees to pray for someone else. So it does have a logical essence to it, in that it makes people take time out to be unselfish, or self centered, and gets them to talk to God more.

v/r

Q
 
I believe that the meaning of the "meeting of heaven and earth" is related to an internal process that takes place within our own bodies .... when the seven energy centers of the bodies are reconnected (four in the body itself and three from the neck up) we have the "meeting of heaven and earth" and we open an ancient path of wisdom .... we all have the capability to do this and the reference to 144,000 is not about 144,000 chosen people, but about 144,000 genes connected with our DNA (this is where I usually begin to lose people who read the bible literally .... since I see it as a metaphor for other knowledge) .... so perhaps we are already living in purgatory (that state between reclaiming our ability to reconnect our head .... symbolically speaking .... to our bodies through the inner system of energy centers) .... also to me everyone is a son or daughter of god when they rediscover this system .... to do so will return us to "paradise" .... I hesitate to post this on the christian forum because of the strong beliefs in the literal interpretations of the bible .... all ancient religions and cultures are connected on the ancient path ..... it is this modern path that has led us astray and all the misinterpretations of the great works (at least that is my view)....Dantes was a spiritual man with much knowledge of the ancient path, he may not have been a "theologian" but that didn't take away from the meaning reflected in his works .... the clues can be found in these words "o ye who have sound intellects, discern the truth that lies concealed beneath the veil of these strange lines, and read their meaning" (canto 9) .... me ke aloha pumehana, pohaikawahine
 
Interesting, pokaiwahine. I've often thought that humankind was living in a "purgatory" here in this life on earth as well.

I also believe that because we are in the ability of free will, what we believe determines how we shall live in the physical realm and in the spiritual realm as well. Strange how monotheists believe God is infinite and yet we try to limit His abilities and wisdom.
 
enton said:
Biblically speaking, you cannot read "purgatory" in the 66 books of the holy Scriptures.
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Of course!, because it was taken out of the biblia during the reformation. The 66 books used to be at least 73, and possibly up to 82, prior to the first official "editing" taking place.

But you used ta-could...:D

v/r

Q
 
The Hebrew word Sheol is found 66 times in the Old Testament. While the OT consistently refers to the body as going to the grave, it always refers to the soul or spirit of man as going to Sheol. The meaning of Sheol moves between the ideas of the grave, the underworld, the state of death, and the state of punishment.It sometimes sounds like "hell", and often sounds like "limbo" or "purgatory" from where you can come out.

Hades is a Greek word in the New Testament, it corresponds to the Hebrew term Sheol in the OT. In the Septuagint, Hades is found 71 times. It is the Greek equivalent for Sheol. And like Sheol, Hades sometimes sounds like "hell" and other quotations sound like "limbo" or "purgatory" from where you can come out. Jesus went to Hades: David foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. (Act.2:31, Ps.16:10).

Tartarus is a Greek word used by some Bibles to translate Sheol, grave or hell in the New Testament. The Greeks believed Tartarus to be "the fabled place of punishment in the lower world. "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Hell (Tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment... (2Pet.2: 4).
The word "Purgatory", from Latin, "purgare", means to make clean, to purify. It is place of suffering, but it is temporal, not eternal. The word is not in the Bible. According to Catholicism, you are going to eternal Heaven from there, sooner or later. Without the doctrine of Purgatory all prayers for your loved ones deceased are obsolete, because if they are saved, they don't need any prayer, and if they are not saved, in hell, all the prayers are good for nothing. This of course being a Catholic teaching.






 
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