If not Jesus, then who?

Hi, not Jewish but was pentecostal for a long time.

Nephilim48 said:
The Bible was dreamt up by those in power to keep the rest of humanity in their place.
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This is many claims in a single breath. How do you know it was dreamt up? How do you know it was by 'Those in power' to 'Keep humanity in their place?' What place?

Additionally, what lies are you referring to, and why did you say 'Full' of lies as opposed to 'Has lies in it'? You are implying it is all untruth.
 
Nephilim48 said:
Jews like followers of all organised religions are misguided and wrong. There is NO god to follow. One does not exist. The Old testament is full of lies and inaccuracies. The Bible was dreamt up by those in power to keep the rest of humanity in their place.Typically promising us jam tommorrow if we behave. Utter bunkum.
Wake up and smell the coffee
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If you read my post to come up with this reply of yours, did I say anything about following organized religions or gods? I don't think so. Then, would you be able to show me where in the OT, the Bible promises anything if we behave? IMHO, the law of cause and effect applies to all, including yourself. How you behave will define what comes to you here on earth. No promise of anything in the afterlife. Jews do not believe in an afterlife. We harvest what we have planted. And all here on earth. I think you are the one who must wake up and smell the coffee.

Would you like to try me about the inaccuracies of the OT? I think you must be a member of the literal interpretation club. That's how I used to think when I was one. Have you ever heard about metaphorical language? You might need some help on that page.
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Peace,

I have been reading some other threads about how Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Can I just say that I accept this 100%, Im not recruiting Jews for Jesus or anything.

I was wondering though, what do Jews mean when they say messiah? Who will he be? What is his purpose? When is he expected etc.

One thing I have heard (from the discovery channel so probably not too reliable) is that the messiah is to be a warlike leader who would free the Jews. But of course, the Jews are free today. What's that about? Please feel free to correct me here.

I would like to stress that I mean no offense to the Jewish religion, but I was raised a Catholic and was taught that Jesus was the messiah, I would like to hear the other side of the argument.
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The Jews are and have been in a state of Exile since the destruction of the second Temple.... the Messiah will redeem us from that exile and bring every Jew back to the land of Israel.

That said we must first take a look at the word Messiah:
Christians often confuse the word Messiah.
The word literally translates as Anointed one.... therefore all kings and priests were Messiahs.

However The Messiah, The anointed one is the one that the Jews pray to arrive.

Some scholars debate that the Messiah will come by the year 6000 (it's 5773), they say that this is the maximum date for the Messiah to arrive.... we will know the Messiah is here by the last verse in Malachi:

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.
 
Menassa said:
The Jews are and have been in a state of Exile since the destruction of the second Temple.... the Messiah will redeem us from that exile and bring every Jew back to the land of Israel.

That said we must first take a look at the word Messiah:
Christians often confuse the word Messiah.
The word literally translates as Anointed one.... therefore all kings and priests were Messiahs.

However The Messiah, The anointed one is the one that the Jews pray to arrive.

Some scholars debate that the Messiah will come by the year 6000 (it's 5773), they say that this is the maximum date for the Messiah to arrive.... we will know the Messiah is here by the last verse in Malachi:

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.
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Hi Menassa, I would like to tell you that the Jews are no longer in a state of exile. Mos of them are still in the Diaspora but not exile.

The exile has been over since the end of WW1. And it was in preparation for that end that Theodor Herzl spent the rest of his life since the Dreyfus' Affair in France trying to inspire the Messiah with love for Zion. I say the Messiah. That's the Messiah you said above the Jews pray to arrive.

I can't think of the Messiah on an individual basis. The individual is born, lives his span of life and eventually dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah cannot die.

According to Jeremiah 31:35-37 the Messiah is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever. And why do I refer to the Jewish People as the Messiah? If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." As you can see, the anointed one of the Lord here is Israel the People. Therefore, the Messiah is the collective in the People of Israel.

The concept of a coming Messiah had its origin in the mind of the Jews who had stayed in the Land of Israel when most of the People were in exile. So, those back in the Land would pray for the Messiah to arrive back home. That's what we have in Ezekiel 37:12 with the sybolical resurrection of the Jews from the graves of the nations and return to the Land of Israel. That's what we call Aliyah.
 
2013 I read thrugh this whole dialogue, and find
1; It is difficult for people to stay on message.
2: Seldom does anyone understand the other persons pov.
3: A question about automobiles (or other things) seems to be an opening to disucss alfalfa hay (or other things.)
4: definitions are not definitions but points of discussion.
Goodness, what I have learned from the question "If not Jesus, then who?"
 
One of the apostles (Paul) said that Jesus is a stumbling block to the Jews and worse to the greeks. It is very hard to make a paradigm shift in any thing let alone your life time of study concerning God. We each know the right thing, and when the new thing comes along we balk. For instance in this day Baha'u'llah is a stumbling block to the Christians and worse to every one else. A prophet arrives and instead of accepting the progressive revelations, we kill him. That is the human way.
 
You are correct! What I believe has no relevance to you. What I say is from time to time worthy of comment. Baha'u'llah is to Christians and others as Jesus is to Jews and others. For lack of training I can't address other belief systems.
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Peace,

I have been reading some other threads about how Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Can I just say that I accept this 100%, Im not recruiting Jews for Jesus or anything.

I was wondering though, what do Jews mean when they say messiah? Who will he be? What is his purpose? When is he expected etc.

One thing I have heard (from the discovery channel so probably not too reliable) is that the messiah is to be a warlike leader who would free the Jews. But of course, the Jews are free today. What's that about? Please feel free to correct me here.

I would like to stress that I mean no offense to the Jewish religion, but I was raised a Catholic and was taught that Jesus was the messiah, I would like to hear the other side of the argument.
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There really is NO other side of the argument.
If Jesus was not the messiah then there never will be a messiah at any other time in the future.

The messianic lineage was to be out of the" house of David."
There's no way to prove which of the Jews has a clean bill of health that extends back to the house of David in an unbroken chain.

All Jew are of mixed heritage . Meaning intermixed among the various tribes and clans of Jews.

Jews do claim the koen lineage to be clean but I don't believe it.
This lineage supposedly extends back to Aaron.
Besides, judaism is not the same religion as it once was.

Once the great temple was destroyed all animal sacrifices ended and without animal sacrifices you can't have an O.T. judaism.

So ,what would a messiah do ,if there were no true old fashioned O.T. believers for him to save?
 
A) Everyone is hypersensitive
B) You don't understand that you are actually offensive.

Do you think we are going to agree on which one is true?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
A) Everyone is hypersensitive
B) You don't understand that you are actually offensive.

Do you think we are going to agree on which one is true?
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Just wanted to point out that Cup of Tea was not responding to me, but rather a rude post from another member that has now been deleted by the moderators.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Just wanted to point out that Cup of Tea was not responding to me, but rather a rude post from another member that has now been deleted by the moderators.
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Well...yes that's right. I sent a message to the admin last night, he's quick.
 
How about, "If not Jesus, then what?" The Law. That's what Jesus came to confirm down to the letter: The Law and the Prophets. (Mat. 5:17-19) Isaiah also says that if we do not speak according to the Law and the Prophets, it is because there is no truth in whatever we say." (Isa. 8:20)

Interesting to notice, when Isaiah mentioned the Law and the Prophets, he said that if we do not teach according to "this word" it is because there is no truth in what we say. He mentioned two words: "Law and the Prophets" and continued, "According to THIS word" and not these words. Do you guys have any idea what word he had in mind? Judaism there is. What form of religion on earth teaches according to the Law and the Prophets if not Judaism? Jesus did it but because his Faith was Judaism.
 
Iyad said:
Can I ask a somewhat relative question?

Do the Jewish people think Jesus was a Jew? Is that by faith or by anncestry?

Thanks...

Oh and just a little FYI (Just an FYI not a debate)
Muslims think that Muhammad (S) is the Messaiah. He was an Arab and not Jewish and Muslims think that this was the reason the Jewish people rejected his Message. They still wanted the Messiah to come from amongst them.
Jewish people who accepted Islam at the times of Muhammad thought that he was the last prophet they were promised in their books albiet not being Jewish himself.
No offence intended. Just thought to shed some "external" light on the concept.
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dauer said:
Iyad,
There is no official position of Judaism on whether or not Jesus was Jewish if he existed. But my personal guess is that those Jews who think Jesus existed also think he was Jewish. There's no way to be Jewish by faith alone. Judaism is determined by ancestry.
I thought Muslims think Jesus is Masikh.
There is actually nothing in Judaism that says there cannot be non-Jewish prophets. But the Moshiach is ben David, descendant of David. But the fact is that the Jews rejected muhammad. That's why he changed the direction of prayer away from Jerusalem for his followers. He had to preach to non-Jews when the Jews rejected him.
Dauer
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Hello Everyone good chat,

Am an avid reader of the Tanakh, but also a Muslim. Iyad is incorrect in his assertion that Muhammad(saw) is the promised Messiah (Mesih) or annointed one. Muslims Universally recognize that Jesus was the final Jewish prophet and the anointed messiah. Much of his mission was unfulfilled because the majority of it is an end of time revelation/prophecy reserved for his second stint to come.

Islam rejects the claim that Jesus in any shape or form is any kind of saviour or l-rd, and his mission is to execute jewish law, and to bring the jews back to the Elohim strictly. Prophet Muhammad was simply the final revelation and prophet sent by G-d, and his message(the Noahide Laws) were universal and not just to the Jews.

Salam/Shalom!
 
cliftor said:
One of the apostles (Paul) said that Jesus is a stumbling block to the Jews and worse to the greeks. It is very hard to make a paradigm shift in any thing let alone your life time of study concerning God. We each know the right thing, and when the new thing comes along we balk. For instance in this day Baha'u'llah is a stumbling block to the Christians and worse to every one else. A prophet arrives and instead of accepting the progressive revelations, we kill him. That is the human way.
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Paul was not an apostle and, when he applied to join the Sect of the Nazarenes organized by the Apostles of Jesus, they rejected him based on the fact that he could be even a disciple; let alone an apostle. (Acts 9:26)

So, Paul did say that Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jews, didn't he? Well, I am an exception to the rule. Jesus is not a stumbling block to me. Rather the opposite is true, for Jesus becomes a stumbling block to Christians that are unable to distinguish the "Christ" of Paul from the Jesus of Nazareth in the NT.

Tell me Cliftor, was Mohamed killed? If yes, by who, one of their own or from outside of Islam?
 
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