something a friend said....

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hi all-

i'm writing to get your insight on something a Baha'i friend of mine said the other day.

we were sitting on the grass, myself, this friend, and a boy we'd just met. the boy asked some questions about the Baha'i Faith and my friend answered them. he ended his brief explaination with "we're in more countries than Islam...oh yeah!"

this really shocked me. i got the impression that the Baha'i faith regards all the great religions as equal. why then this apparent haughtiness with regards to Islam? does it really matter in how many countries one's faith is practiced, so long as its fruits are good?

this is generally something that i find common with many Baha'is i meet, both in real life and on-line, and i'd like to understand why. namely, a penchant for number-dropping when ever the faith is discussed around or with non-Baha'is.

:confused:
 
ISFP said:
hi all-

i'm writing to get your insight on something a Baha'i friend of mine said the other day.

we were sitting on the grass, myself, this friend, and a boy we'd just met. the boy asked some questions about the Baha'i Faith and my friend answered them. he ended his brief explaination with "we're in more countries than Islam...oh yeah!"

this really shocked me. i got the impression that the Baha'i faith regards all the great religions as equal. why then this apparent haughtiness with regards to Islam? does it really matter in how many countries one's faith is practiced, so long as its fruits are good?

this is generally something that i find common with many Baha'is i meet, both in real life and on-line, and i'd like to understand why. namely, a penchant for number-dropping when ever the faith is discussed around or with non-Baha'is.

:confused:
Click to expand...

If it didn't matter at all then why would there be so many religions? In particular Baha'is view the religions as succeeding eachother, building on eachother. While it is true that all their Founders are viewed as equal, and each religion followed faithfully will succeed in winning the heart to its Beloved, they are not arbitrary members of the present. There is a world at hand and things going on in it no previous religion has seen in its day - that doesn't mean the inherent truth changes, but it does mean that God's guidance responds to humanity's growth and it's own agenda. Agricultural analogies aren't as appropriate today as they used to be. And if the religions are supposed to making a difference then succeeding religions should be able to delve into what "what ye cannot bear yet".

Looked at in another way, Baha'is are a tiny tiny minority. We are never included in any significant public mentions of religions and we are never accounted presence in calendars for holy days etc etc. The enthusiasm for our growth is in part to balance the sometimes extreme isolation we have to face every day in school, work, and so on.

People are also generally afraid of anything that they haven't heard of that could sound strange. So saying that we are a well spread out religion pretty much signifies that we are not a cult hold up in the local slums and if someone has an internationalist interest, the fact that Baha'is are VERY well spread out (far more per capita than ANY other religion) is not only something to be proud of but clearly something of interest among those people.
 
ISFP said:
hi all-

i'm writing to get your insight on something a Baha'i friend of mine said the other day.

we were sitting on the grass, myself, this friend, and a boy we'd just met. the boy asked some questions about the Baha'i Faith and my friend answered them. he ended his brief explaination with "we're in more countries than Islam...oh yeah!"

this really shocked me. i got the impression that the Baha'i faith regards all the great religions as equal. why then this apparent haughtiness with regards to Islam? does it really matter in how many countries one's faith is practiced, so long as its fruits are good?

this is generally something that i find common with many Baha'is i meet, both in real life and on-line, and i'd like to understand why. namely, a penchant for number-dropping when ever the faith is discussed around or with non-Baha'is.

:confused:
Click to expand...

ISFP... Thanks for your note!

Feel free to ask any questions of Baha'is here. It's true your Baha'i friend probably mentioned how widespread our Faith is, but aside from that it's really a very small percentage currently of the world religions... so he was probably just sharing with you one aspect of our Faith that was in his mind an important point.

Haughtiness is not a Baha'i virtue.

- Art
 
smkolins said:
People are also generally afraid of anything that they haven't heard of that could sound strange. So saying that we are a well spread out religion pretty much signifies that we are not a cult hold up in the local slums and if someone has an internationalist interest, the fact that Baha'is are VERY well spread out (far more per capita than ANY other religion) is not only something to be proud of but clearly something of interest among those people.
Click to expand...

smkolins-

interesting you should phrase it that way... it's just not something i see in any other "world" religion. Islam, however, does this sometimes.

"Islam is the fastest growing world religion- there are ___ million Muslims in the world today and growing."

that may be so, and that's good for Islam, but why does it keep sounding like someone's trying to sell me a car, not a faith?
 
I'm curious - is there a source for such statements outside of the Baha'i organisation??
 
Howdy smkollins,

I'm curious if when you stated that " they are not arbitrary members of the present ", you were referring to the Manifestations Themselves, the religions They established ( which as Baha'u'llah taught are but one religion ), or the mutifarious administerial, churches and religious orginizations which make claim to representing those Manifestations?

Yours Larry
 
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Excellent link, ISFP - I though religioustolerance.org might have something, and gaining any kind of figures for religious distributions is always fraught with difficulties - interesting to note the strong followings in Asia and Africa - not something I expected to see.
 
diamondsouled said:
Howdy smkollins,

I'm curious if when you stated that " they are not arbitrary members of the present ", you were referring to the Manifestations Themselves, the religions They established ( which as Baha'u'llah taught are but one religion ), or the mutifarious administerial, churches and religious orginizations which make claim to representing those Manifestations?

Yours Larry
Click to expand...

I was refering to the religions. I suppose it might be a question what a religion is but lately I've had to point out that a religion really has an administrative/organizational structure(s). Ultimately the fact that one can point to one religion vs another must depend on the fact that there are administrative/organizational structures which destiinguish themselves, and those who choose to follow one or the other. Even if one is not a formal member of a religion one can only really pretend to be some kind of neutral member, unattached to the organization, because the faith one has was had by book or similar, and said source came from some organization, and therefore it's rules of authenticity and, ultimately, faith (so that for examples, scribes were faithful in their transcription, and their painstaking work marked by their faith in doing the right thing....)

The fact that, as you correctly point out, Baha'u'llah teaches there is but one religion in essence, does not dismiss the fact that in this world of appearences there is plurality of truth when it is in fact a single point.

However it is true that the actions and Revelations and Persons of the Manifestations are as well not arbitrary members of the present, but for different reasons I would content.
 
Hello Steve,

I would agree that the Manifestations are not arbitrary members of the present through those religious Faith communities ( superstructures ) that bear Their Names, but that they are members of the present through Their 'original intention', which is ultimately one intention.

Abdu'l-Baha' had this to say:

"Thus religion which was destined to become the cause of friendship has become the cause of enmity. Religion, which was meant to be sweet honey, is changed into bitter poison. Religion, the function of which was to illumine humanity, has become the factor of obscuration and gloom. Religion, which was to confer the consciousness of everlasting life, has become the fiendish instrument of death. As long as these superstitions are in the hands and these nets of dissimulation and hypocrisy in the fingers, religion will be the most harmful agency on this planet. These superannuated traditions, which are inherited unto the present day, must be abandoned, and thus free from past superstitions we must investigate the original intention. The basis on which they have fabricated the superstructures will be seen to be one, and that one, absolute reality; and as reality is indivisible, complete unity and amity will be instituted and the true religion of God will become unveiled in all its beauty and sublimity in the assemblage of the world. "

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 161)

I would argue that over identification with the ' superstructure ' of religion is what ultimately causes disunity between and within religions; as well, that the only means to avoid this over identification is to do as Abdu'l-Baha' has suggested and "investigate the original intention".

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry
 
diamondsouled said:
I would argue that over identification with the ' superstructure ' of religion is what ultimately causes disunity between and within religions; as well, that the only means to avoid this over identification is to do as Abdu'l-Baha' has suggested and "investigate the original intention".

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry
Click to expand...

Hi Larry, welcome to CR. :)

Thank you for this reminder about the distinction between religion and Religion. I'm not sure that "overidentification" is the problem, but perhaps forgetting that in spite of the distinctions we are all truely united by the Religion of Love. Nothing wrong with having one's Baha'i-identity, Christian-identity, Buddhist-identity become one's central identity, IMO. I like your tag line.

cheers,
lunamoth/chickadee ;)
 
Hello Lunamoth,

The causes for the forgetfullness you spoke of are of course broader than overidentification with the 'superstructures' of religion.

As to religious identity Abdu'l-Baha' pointed out it is possible to be a Baha'i-Freemason, a Baha'i-Jew, a Baha'i Christian:

'A student of the modern methods of the higher criticism asked 'Abdu'l-Bahá if he would do well to continue in the church with which he had been associated all his life, and whose language was full of meaning to him. 'Abdu'l-Bahá answered: "You must not dissociate yourself from it. Know this; the Kingdom of God is not in any Society; some seekers go through many Societies as a traveller goes through many cities till he reach his destination. If you belong to a Society already do not forsake your brothers. You can be a Bahá'í-Christian, a Bahá'í-Freemason, a Bahá'í-Jew, a Bahá'í-Muhammadan. The number nine contains eight, and seven, and all the other numbers, and does not deny any of them. Do not distress or deny anyone by saying 'He is not a Bahá'í!' He will be known by his deeds. There are no secrets among Bahá'ís; a Bahá'í does not hide anything." '

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 97)

As Abdu'l-Baha' points out a person's true spiritual identity is known through their deeds and not their religious affiliation.

There is a lesson in this. That the Master Himself saw such matters in this way is a big eye opener.

It is a person's character which defines them, not the name of the religion they profess to be a member of.

I came up with the first part of my tag line about six years ago or so. I began adding the 'as one soul' to it when I truly began to tune into what Baha'u'llah is saying in the following quote:

"If any man were to meditate on that which the Scriptures, sent down from the heaven of God's holy Will, have revealed, he would readily recognize that their purpose is that all men shall be regarded as one soul, so that the seal bearing the words "The Kingdom shall be God's" may be stamped on every heart, and the light of Divine bounty, of grace, and mercy may envelop all mankind. "

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 260)

The whole fulfillment and success of all Religion is based on this one thing: " that all men shall be regarded as one soul. ".

'As one soul' in the face of all differences; of race, of ethnicity, of gender, of nationality, of sexual orientation, of religion and importantly of religious interpretation as well.

There is only us, we are them, ' as one soul '.

Yours Larry
 
You can be a Bahá'í-Christian, a Bahá'í-Freemason, a Bahá'í-Jew, a Bahá'í-Muhammadan.
Click to expand...

diamond-

but can you just be a Christian, Freemason, Muslim, Buddhist?

something disturbing i'm learning about the Baha'i Faith is that they do not actually see all religions as equal, though this is not often explained to outsiders who often see only the posters decorated with the world's religions' symbols, and hence assume this means equality... it seems (from what i've heard from Baha'is) that Baha'is believe that in light of Bahaullah's revelation, the other religions become, in a word, obsolete in that they lack what Bahaullah's message contained.

however, this is not explained at all top outsiders to the religion. the watered-down idea of "religious unity" is often used on non-Baha'is to (and i quote a practicing Baha'i friend!) "get them through the door".
 
Hello ISFP,

Triumphalism is fairly common in religionists, that some Baha'is fall victim to it should come as no surprise.

Abdu'l-Baha' understood: " the Kingdom of God is in not in any Society ".

He understood as well that:

" Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found. 'The ways unto God are as the number of the breaths of [His] creatures' is a mysterious truth, and 'To every [people] We have appointed a [separate] rite'* is one of the subtleties of the Qur'án.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 91)

Many Baha'is choose to ignore the fact of the truth that: "The ways unto God are as the numbers of breaths of [His] creatures."

There are those that accept this truth as well though.

Yours Larry

"Know this; the Kingdom of God is not in any Society; some seekers go through many Societies as a traveller goes through many cities till he reach his destination. If you belong to a Society already do not forsake your brothers."
 
diamondsouled said:
Hello ISFP,

Triumphalism is fairly common in religionists, that some Baha'is fall victim to it should come as no surprise.

Abdu'l-Baha' understood: " the Kingdom of God is in not in any Society ".

He understood as well that:

" Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found. 'The ways unto God are as the number of the breaths of [His] creatures' is a mysterious truth, and 'To every [people] We have appointed a [separate] rite'* is one of the subtleties of the Qur'án.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 91)

Many Baha'is choose to ignore the fact of the truth that: "The ways unto God are as the numbers of breaths of [His] creatures."

There are those that accept this truth as well though.

Yours Larry

"Know this; the Kingdom of God is not in any Society; some seekers go through many Societies as a traveller goes through many cities till he reach his destination. If you belong to a Society already do not forsake your brothers."
Click to expand...

Hi Larry,

I am a former Baha'i returned to Christianity. I was attracted to the Baha'i Faith because of such statements as you quote, but I found the reality of being a Baha'i somewhat different. I have seen your other posts elsewhere so I do have an idea of where you are coming from, but I'm wondering if you would be willing to clarify this apparent discrepancy here.

lunamoth
 
Hello Lunamoth,

The cause of the discrepancy as you term I understand to be human nature based.

Rob Preece elaborates on the dynamic which causes such dissonance and or discrepancy, from a Buddhist outlook.

He uses Jung's architypes of Senex and Puer Aeternus religionists to describe the dynamic that manifests itself in religion. That the parallels between his descriptions of how these natural dynamics have effected Buddhism and the present dynamic within the Baha'i Faith are stark is a big eye opener, that is if you are open to having your eyes opened.

The Universalism expressed in Baha'u'llah's and Abdu'l-Baha' Teachings is a beautiful thing to behold. As you noted the reality of membership in the Baha'i Faith is somewhat different than what the Universalism in the Teachings give us as expectations.

Humans will be humans.

When Senex religionists begin the perennial purging of their fellow Puer Aeternus coreligionists a religion has reached a certain state. What usually occurs is a break of the religion into sects which reflect more closely a Senex or Puer Aeternus interpretation of the original religion.

Read Rob's piece, as I said the parallels are both stark and informative:

http://www.mudra.co.uk/mudra_individuation.html

Yours Larry
 
Thank you for the reply Larry. But didn't Baha'u'llah (pbuh) more or less say that division into sects would not be a part of His Dispensation and Covenant?

I found it impossible to resolve myself.

lunamoth
 
Hello Lunamoth,

"didn't Baha'u'llah (pbuh) more or less say that division into sects would not be a part of His Dispensation and Covenant?"

That was His intention, Abdu'l-Baha's as well. As the saying goes " the best laid plans of mice and men ".

Shoghi was clear to differenciate between God's Plan and the Faith's Plans. He admitted that at some point God's Plan may override Baha'i Plans.

With Shoghi's death, without having in his own lifetime appointed a successor, it became impossible to fulfill the Covenant as It is clearly spelt out in Abdu'l-Baha's W&T. The Universal House of Justice was to have as It's permanent head a Guardian. A Guardian who could act as a check and balance, a Guardian who had the authority to remove members from the Universal House of Justice as well as the authority to insist on a reconcideration of enactments of the Universal House of Justice which he felt did not reflect the meaning and spirit of Baha'u'llah's revealed utterances. The Baha'i Faith today is sorely missing such a check and balance.

I personally believe that Shoghi was, unfortunately, the first and last Guardian.

I don't believe that the Hands were intentionally misguided when they took over authority in the Faith with no scriptural basis to back them up. They felt they had no alternative and perhaps they didn't, but to let the "superstructure" of the Faith pass and to investigate and run with the "original intention".

Being Senex sort of individuals, as was Shoghi, they chose the former. What we have today in the Baha'i Faith comes about through that Senex bias.

My dream of Baha'u'llah's tent and Taj bears out this interpretation.

In the dream I am camped out on the grounds of Bahji in Baha'u'llah's tent. Within His tent sits His Taj. Raidiant and pristine the illumiation His Taj gives off takes my breath away. When I take pause from contemplating His Taj I'm at first surprised to notice that His tent is quite ordinary. It not only gives off no illumination it is worn and patched in places. All of a sudden it made perfect sense. The tent represented the outer form ( superstructure ) of Baha'u'llah's religion, that form it has it common with all other reiligions; His Taj represented the inner form, the 'original intention' as Abdu'l-Baha' termed it.

I believe it is quite possible to be Baha'i, to be a person of Baha' and not be involved with the 'superstructure' but to focus on the 'original intention'.

This 'original intention' I interpret to mean the purpose for all scripture as Baha'u'llah worded it; the purpose that all men regard one another ' as one soul '.

Without adherence to this 'original intention', this pivotal teaching of the oneness of humanity, without adherence to the most great unity implied in this oneness, all 'superstructures' fail us, including the 'superstructure' of the Baha'i Faith.

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry
 
Some discipline and some responsibility...

First, I that it's true that many people want their religious life independent of any structure and want few responsibilities and cares.

i also think for some that's a necessary part of their growth ...that is to challenge "authority" in their religion and explore truth for themselves.

In the Baha'i Faith we call this independent investigation of truth...and discovering reality for themselves. We become Baha'is as a result of our own search and discovery.

Secondly and no less important is that the Baha'i Faith in most of it's communities around the world calls for a great deal of responsibility on the part of the individual believer. So unlike some other religions where the minister or priest has the responsibility for planning the programs and seeing that the church is vibrant and alive.. the Baha'is themselves in probably most of our communities have the responsibility for the Feasts and how the community is administered through the Local Spiritual Assembly, this is a difficult thing for many who are unused to this kind of discipline and responsibility.

Regarding the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha the following should be noted:

"The sacred and youthful branch, the guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice, to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abha Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both). Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him!"

The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 11.

AND

"All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. The Glory of Glories rest upon you!"

The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 26.

With the passing of the Guardian, his precepts and principles did not pass away but are used continually by the House of Justice in it's deliberations so as an "Institution" the Guardianship is very much with us.

For us Baha'is the unity of our Faith involves recognition of the Center of the Cause and this requires discipline and continuing responsibility which I think are essential to spiritual growth.

- Art

;)
 
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