something a friend said....

[diamondsouled]

Re: Some discipline and some responsibility...

Howdy Art,

"All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. The Glory of Glories rest upon you!"

The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 26.

With the passing of the Guardian, his precepts and principles did not pass away but are used continually by the House of Justice in it's deliberations so as an "Institution" the Guardianship is very much with us.

For us Baha'is the unity of our Faith involves recognition of the Center of the Cause and this requires discipline and continuing responsibility which I think are essential to spiritual growth.

- Art
-------
As you mentioned recognition of the Center of the Covenant in the present tense I am assuming you are referring to the Universal House of Justice and not to Shoghi Effendi.

That the Universal House of Justice has taken apon Itself the title of Head of the Faith as well as Center of the Covenant, an authority and title not granted them scripturally, is a sign of the measure of their arrogance.

As to the independant search for truth it has be thrown by the wayside by the Universal House of Justice; along with unity in diversity, along with the freedom of conscience, along with investigation into the 'original intention'.

What Shoghi warned of has come to pass. The Faith has become so fixated on the 'minute details', on Ruhi instead of the idependant search for truth, on quarter of a billion dollar terraces, on worldly Baha'i prestiege, that the administration of the Cause use as an instrument has been forgotten, to be replaced by an adminocentric fixation which has come to substitute for Faith in Baha'u'llah and His pivotal Teaching of the oneness of humanity.

" the administration of the Cause is to be conceived as an instrument and not a substitute for the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, that it should be regarded as a channel through which His promised blessings may flow, that it should guard against such rigidity as would clog and fetter the liberating forces released by His Revelation."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

" It is surely for those to whose hands so priceless a heritage has been committed to prayerfully watch lest the tool should supersede the Faith itself, lest undue concern for the minute details arising from the administration of the Cause obscure the vision of its promoters, lest partiality, ambition, and worldliness tend in the course of time to becloud the radiance, stain the purity, and impair the effectiveness of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh."

( Shoghi Effendi World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

Faith in Baha'u'llah has now become secondary to Faith in the Universal House of Justice.

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry

 

[arthra]

Re: Some discipline and some responsibility...

diamondsouled wrote:

"As you mentioned recognition of the Center of the Covenant in the present tense I am assuming you are referring to the Universal House of Justice and not to Shoghi Effendi.

That the Universal House of Justice has taken apon Itself the title of Head of the Faith as well as Center of the Covenant, an authority and title not granted them scripturally, is a sign of the measure of their arrogance."

My reply:

We will have to disagree on this diamond... and part company on this issue.

As I mentioned earlier the House of Justice is always congnizant of the precepts and principles of the Beloved Guardian and so the Institution of the Guardianship continues.

Also we shouldn't forget that the Terraces which were completed a few years ago have only served to beautiful and enhance the "arc" as envisioned by the Beloved Guardian Himself.

And I'd recommend the following article to you and anyone else interested though to read at their leisure:

http://bahai-library.com/articles/flow.html

- Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Luna!

Thank you for the reply Larry. But didn't Baha'u'llah (pbuh) more or less say that division into sects would not be a part of His Dispensation and Covenant?

The point is not that divisions won't occur: they always have, and this is hardly surprising.

The point is that no division or splinter group will last: so far, every such attempt has died out within a generation. Many of the most vocal splinter groups of fifty years ago are now totally gone, and those that still haven't completely died out are still further splintered and arguing with each other.

The Baha'i Covenant, in contrast, is strong, and will endure, just as it has for over a century and a half already!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Re: Some discipline and some responsibility...

I'm sorry, Larry, but that's pure nonsense.

The Baha'i Covenant remains strong, and the Baha'is are doing their best to follow it.

And not only does this include the House of Justice, but it has repeatedly refused to attempt to take on new roles not already assigned to it in our scriptures (interpretation of scripture being a good example).

Nor do study classes, etc. in any way interfere with all this: they are simply tools to assist in furthering the Baha'i Faith as a whole.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Re: Some discipline and some responsibility...

... the House of Justice has repeatedly refused to attempt to take on new roles not already assigned to it in our scriptures (interpretation of scripture being a good example).

Just to clarify what I meant here, the House has REFUSED to take on the role on interpretation of scripture assigned not to it but to the Guardianship.

(This is thus an example of how the House is not trying to expand its scope.)

Bruce

 

[ISFP]

what i will say regarding diamond's comments is this:

that i have found amoung many non-Baha'is looking objectively at the Baha'i Faith an agreement with at least some of diamond's opinions and beleifs.

another point of tension with non-Baha'is regarding the nuances of Baha'i doctrine is the doctrine that, while all religions are part of the same unfolding revelation, that these religions' messages become obsolete in light of Bahaullah's revelations. this is not something often addressed in Baha'i inter-faith gatherings and something that many non-Baha'is (and in truth some practicing Baha'is) are ignorant of.

it's a lack of alignment with what is presented on the outside (i.e. equality of world religions and their continuing validity) with what is believed in truth that has made me a skeptic.

 

[arthra]

Progressive revelation:

what i will say regarding diamond's comments is this:

that i have found amoung many non-Baha'is looking objectively at the Baha'i Faith an agreement with at least some of diamond's opinions and beleifs.

another point of tension with non-Baha'is regarding the nuances of Baha'i doctrine is the doctrine that, while all religions are part of the same unfolding revelation, that these religions' messages become obsolete in light of Bahaullah's revelations. this is not something often addressed in Baha'i inter-faith gatherings and something that many non-Baha'is (and in truth some practicing Baha'is) are ignorant of.

it's a lack of alignment with what is presented on the outside (i.e. equality of world religions and their continuing validity) with what is believed in truth that has made me a skeptic.

That image you've posted is a favorite of many in our Inter-faith Council where I live..

I don't think though that Baha'is are going out of their way to keep non-Baha'is ignorant. What is "obsolete" is not the spiritual validity or core of past religions or that they had a divine origin.

What changes are the religions ordinances and social principles from age to age... Jesus in the Sermon of the Mount abrogated Deuteronomic Codes... Baha'u'llah abrogated Jihad and so on...

So we are upfront with this when we proclaim the Baha'i principles that are relevant to this age that Baha'u'llah revealed suchas the equality of men and women, the oneness of humanity, and the need for a representative world government and international court to achieve peace and justice.

So i don't see Baha'is deceiving people of other faiths as accepting their spiritual heritage is a part of our faith.

There's also an article by Robert Stockman on the subject of progressive revelation that you may interest you at

http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/revelation.html


- Art

 

[diamondsouled]

Howdy all,

The main things which have confirmed for me that the Universal House of Justice is off kilter in left field, and no longer is center of anything let alone a Covenant between God and humanity, are that their words do not reflect their deeds, as well as the fact that it is only appointees of the Universal House of Justice who are now being admitted into its ranks. I don't see this as a nefarious thing I see it as the result of human nature and the all too human propensity to make a posession of all things, including religion.

The Universal House of Justice gives voice to words such as these:"beyond all diversity of cultural expression and human interpretation, religion is likewise one."*Yet their actions in regards to their own coreligionists (Alison Marshall and Michael McKenny) puts the lie to their own words. If religion is one beyond all diversity of human interpretation just exatctly what business does the Universal House of Justice has removing fellow coreligionists from that 'one religion' simply because of their 'human interpretations'? The Universal House of Justice's meddling with the spiritual identities of their fellow coreligionists belies the fact that their words far exceed their deeds, that they are only mummers of such words and have not taken them to heart themselves.

That the Universal House of Justice has taken it apon themselves the judgement of "the convictions", "the ideas", as well as the very "consciences" and "beliefs" of their fellow coreligioinists shows that they are delusionally equating themselves with " the Lord of hearts" Himself, with "the King of kings" Himself. They no longer see themselves as servants of God but as gods themselves:

"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of creation, and manifestation of the hidden verities of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found. 'The ways unto God are as the number of the breaths of [His] creatures' is a mysterious truth, and 'To every [people] We have appointed a [separate] rite'* is one of the subtleties of the Qur'án."
(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 91)

Former Universal House of Justice member Douglas Martin's attitude towards conscience is a proof that the Universal House has strayed far from the Teachings. He not only sees conscience as not being sacred he sees it as something to be supressed, something to be surrendered and handed over to him, a hallmark of cult behavior.

The Universal House of Justice is most obviously a ship without it's pilot.

Shoghi foresaw what the consequenses would be should the World Order of Baha'u'llah become divorced from the institution of the Guardianship:

"Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh would be mutilated and permanently deprived of that hereditary principle which, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá has written, has been invariably upheld by the Law of God."

" Without such an institution the integrity of the Faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire fabric would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a series of generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary guidance to define the sphere of the legislative action of its elected representatives would be totally withdrawn."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 148)

Art's answer that Shoghi Effendi has somehow become Guardian in perpetuity is curious in light of the fact that he and most other Baha'is are all too willing to ignore, overlook, and discount the above words of his.

My only advice to the Universal House of Justice and to Baha'is in general is too: " investigate the original intention ", as Abdu'l-Baha' advised; to turn away from fixation on the "superstructure(s)" of religion and begin showing that they truly understand and are willing to show through their deeds that: "beyond all diversity of cultural expression and human interpretation, religion is likewise one."

"Thus religion which was destined to become the cause of friendship has become the cause of enmity. Religion, which was meant to be sweet honey, is changed into bitter poison. Religion, the function of which was to illumine humanity, has become the factor of obscuration and gloom. Religion, which was to confer the consciousness of everlasting life, has become the fiendish instrument of death. As long as these superstitions are in the hands and these nets of dissimulation and hypocrisy in the fingers, religion will be the most harmful agency on this planet. These superannuated traditions, which are inherited unto the present day, must be abandoned, and thus free from past superstitions we must investigate the original intention. The basis on which they have fabricated the superstructures will be seen to be one, and that one, absolute reality; and as reality is indivisible, complete unity and amity will be instituted and the true religion of God will become unveiled in all its beauty and sublimity in the assemblage of the world."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 161)


There is only us we are them, ' as one soul '.

Yours Larry Rowe

*(The Universal House of Justice, One Common Faith)

 

[arthra]

Larry,

I understand you have some strong feelings about the Universal House of Justice but feel they are probably out-of-place here...

and off topic..

Also your reference to Douglas Martin is out of place here and I'd prefer you not mention specific people.

- Art

 

[iBrian]

the Universal House of Justice but feel they are probably out-of-place here...

Would you recommend another thread to discuss the Universeal House of Justice??

Also your reference to Douglas Martin is out of place here and I'd prefer you not mention specific people.

I'm not sure what the exact position is being taken, but if someone is in authority within the Baha'i faith, then are they not also held account to it, as with any leading figure in any religious group?

This of course presumes that we're still dealing with issues of faith and that we're not verging into libellous territory...

 

[diamondsouled]

Dear Art,

I would never pass judgement on the spiritual state or the spiritual identity of any person, including Universal House of Justice members.

I point to actual facts of behavior and of words though, words which are in the public record.

For example, Universal House of Justice's Peter Khan's ranting and railing against the entire Baha'i community in New Zealand is a matter of public record. That he personally called into question the spiritual state of that entire community is factual. If you wish I will quote those words from both Douglas Martin as well as Peter Khan.

Words of Douglas' which not only do not recognize the sacredness of the freedom of conscience, the freedom to conscientiously give voice to conscience, but which do not even recognise that such sacred rights are as well unalienable human rights. Words of Peter Khans' which not only pass judgement on the spiritual state of one individual Baha'i but which pass judgement on the spiritual state of an entire national community of Baha'is simply because Alison Marshall calls that nation home.

That the members Universal House of Justice will be called to account for setting up their own interpretational standard of qualification for Baha'i membership, something they are neither scripturally or spiritually authorized to do, is between them and God. When I point out actual words and behaviors of individual House members which clearly contradict the Teachings it is not only my right to do so, it is my duty.

There is only us, we are them, ' as one soul '.

Yours Larry Rowe

 

[arthra]

Would you recommend another thread to discuss the Universeal House of Justice??




I'm not sure what the exact position is being taken, but if someone is in authority within the Baha'i faith, then are they not also held account to it, as with any leading figure in any religious group?

This of course presumes that we're still dealing with issues of faith and that we're not verging into libellous territory...

Regarding the initial topic yes I think Larry's direction is offtopic..

Regarding a former member of the House of Justice if they speak for themselves they have no authority and besides there was no direct quote or source given.

Brian, if you'd like to assume moderator status here go ahead... I'll resign.

- Art

 

[iBrian]

there was no direct quote or source given.

That would certainly be interesting - Larry, do you have any cites or links to the material you're attributing to Universal House of Justice members?

Brian, if you'd like to assume moderator status here go ahead... I'll resign.

Simply asking the direction that this thread needs to go, and how points it raises need to be addressed - I've already received a couple of PM's about this thread, so I'm interested to see in what way we should ensure it remains most constructive.

 

[diamondsouled]

Dear Art,

The topic is triumphalism in the Baha'i Faith.

I would argue that this triumphalism can be traced directly to the top administrative body in the Baha'i Faith Iself, the Universal House of Justice. I would argue as well that this triumphalism has been facillitated and fostered through the myth of the infallibilty of that body, a myth the Universal House of Justice encourages. I point to such words and behaviors that I have shared, of the Universal House of Justice Itself as well as individual members of that House, as a proof that belief in the Universal House of Justice's infallibility is in fact a myth and not a reality.

Triumphalism within religion can always be traced to the leaders of religion as Baha'u'llah so eloquently pointed out in His Kitab-i-Iqan. Whether the leaders of religion call themselves Popes, Mullas, Rabbis, Lamas or House members does not differenciate them. What would differenciate them are their words and their deeds.

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry

 

[smkolins]

... it seems (from what i've heard from Baha'is) that Baha'is believe that in light of Bahaullah's revelation, the other religions become, in a word, obsolete in that they lack what Bahaullah's message contained.

however, this is not explained at all top outsiders to the religion. the watered-down idea of "religious unity" is often used on non-Baha'is to (and i quote a practicing Baha'i friend!) "get them through the door".

In being a Baha'i, the idea of the respect for all the religions is not an arbitrary idea. It has implications. I've had prolonged discussions with fundamentalist Christians about Bible verses. We would write long treateses to eachother (and this was in the day before many texts were available for easy cut and paste.) While we differed on interpritation often, there was a grudging respect expressed that we took the Bible seriously. And the very same feeling, I would content, is a bias Baha'is have about all the religions and faith traditions of the world - one of respect, of wanting to learn what is said thoughout, and looking for the truth of it. However from more than alittle experience I would content that many members of religions favor their own scriptures to the exclusion of others, and when given license by majority and political power often enforced some scheme by which unrespected religions would be systematically, and forcefully, oppressed.

I have continued to study religions and scriptures since becoming a Baha'i and I am hardly unique. But I am a Baha'i. I read a very great deal of Baha'i scripture and that seems thoroughly natural and appropriate.

Moreover I feel your sense of how Baha'is act with outsiders and insiders a bit strained compared to my experience. There are many Baha'is who even find the terminology of "us" and "them", Baha'is and non-Baha'is, as bothersome. However there is a realm of terminology Baha'is have from their Scripture. Her in public we tend to use the terms in common use - Prophets, Jesus as Son of God, denominations etc. Nor am I saying Baha'is use these words purely for the sake of communication - they are very real terms to Baha'is. But we have other terminology as well - Manifestations, Jesus as the Face of God, Covenants, and so on. To use specific terminology among those who hardly know it would seem rude, would it not?

It is also true that the Founders of the Religions, and Their Scriptures, are not arbitrary events and documents. Among other things, they often speak of eachother. People find such comments distressing sometimes because it means the meaning handed down with some teaching is wrong somehow. While the point is not to dwell on differences, it isn't to ignore what is said either. To the extent that every Revelation was meant to awaken the heart they each "save" and are worthy. But in accepting a plurality of Revelations, one must deal with what they say, or hazard a blind spot that was actually pointed as something that needed further comment and guidance. This does not mean in any simple way that one scripture supercedes the prior and one aught not read it. Indeed since one comments on the other, it would be a failure to understand the scripture at hand if one did not read the other!!

 

[smkolins]

Hello Lunamoth,

The cause of the discrepancy as you term I understand to be human nature based.

Rob Preece elaborates on the dynamic which causes such dissonance and or discrepancy, from a Buddhist outlook.

He uses Jung's architypes of Senex and Puer Aeternus religionists to describe the dynamic that manifests itself in religion. That the parallels between his descriptions of how these natural dynamics have effected Buddhism and the present dynamic within the Baha'i Faith are stark is a big eye opener, that is if you are open to having your eyes opened.

Another investigation could be done in light of the Baha'i scripture _The Seven Valleys_. These are my own views of course - any simple summary of a scripture can only be a pov about it. It is itself what it is.

First one is all about questions, and not really wanting answers. Then one is all about an Answer undeniable - finally the truth is revealed and the questions fade to their proper nothingness. There is a natural tension between one only wishing questions and one wanting only the answer. Resolving the tension requires understanding the relationship of truths and that things depend on a point of view or of process. Then, as truth in our lives is something we choose to accept on our own terms, we can find, like the wind, that any pov can relate to the truth if it but turned in the right direction, it's own direction, but in harmony to all others. But people can as easily turn in every other direction, distracted from the truth by whatever captivates. And the adventure continues much further, because all along one has thought one knew what the truth was, even as it continued to reveal greater depth and detail as one grew in appreciation of it.

Just because one is a Baha'i doesn't place one automatically at the end of that journey!! Indeed one could be a Baha'i and not even started the journey. There are people who feel they can only declare themselves Baha'i when they have achieved an illumined state that does not fail. Others sign a paper when a friendly face presents it and no other reason.

People are in different places about this journey.

 

[smkolins]

another point of tension with non-Baha'is regarding the nuances of Baha'i doctrine is the doctrine that, while all religions are part of the same unfolding revelation, that these religions' messages become obsolete in light of Bahaullah's revelations.

I suppose it comes down to whether you wish to examine the Baha'i Faith on the basis of the Baha'is you find, in whatever state they may be in just like everyone else on the planet, or how the Faith has changed them, which will require getting to know them rather better than in an average public meeting, and beyond even that, there is the question of what you think the Scripture of the Baha'i Faith actually says. I hazard you will find some not changed at all while others would be unrecognizable for all the right reasons - and most inbetween.

As you are fond of noting that other notes, the Baha'i Faith is a growing religion. Clearly some must feel impressed, and willing to be changed by it, accepting the truth they find, and find truths they didn't expect.

 

[smkolins]

If religion is one beyond all diversity of human interpretation just exatctly what business does the Universal House of Justice has removing fellow coreligionists from that 'one religion' simply because of their 'human interpretations'?

Because religion is one, despite human interpritation, and allowing faulty human stances on the truth to supplant truth itself, is, among other things, Their duty to prevent, as it was of all the Central Figures of the Faith before.

The above statement is not simply an affirmation of every possible way of thinking. It is a statement that truth is something that can be reflected in every single human life, but which need not be a governing principle of every single human life - indeed that life can be corrupted and a cause of great suffering. Such suffering itself testifies that there is truth, but unappreciated.

 

[smkolins]

... if someone is in authority within the Baha'i faith, then are they not also held account to it, as with any leading figure in any religious group?

This of course presumes that we're still dealing with issues of faith and that we're not verging into libellous territory...

Indeed and a thin path that can become.

But to answer your question, members of the Universal House of Justice, the final authority available in the present Baha'i Faith, are elected every 5 years. It is a secret ballot and in procedure.

 

[smkolins]

Dear Art,

The topic is triumphalism in the Baha'i Faith.

I would argue that this triumphalism can be traced directly to the top administrative body in the Baha'i Faith Iself, the Universal House of Justice.

If you were still a Baha'i which you are not by your own testimony, then such issues would be possible topics, within bounds of responsible discourse, through Baha'i channels - I concede such an extreme position would be hard to gain enough respectability to get much of an audience for discussion. But I have heard it in a few cases.

As you are not a Baha'i, and the Faith has no mechanism to change is structure or norms on the basis of social commentary or influence, I suppose your comments serve no purpose for the Faith itself.

As for the topic of triumphalism, I would note some very explicit references that the Baha'i Faith is not endless - that there will be future Manifestations of God. However there surely is some sense that this is the day the truths of the Baha'i Faith are meant for - and that the triumph of the Baha'i Faith (not truely in numbers but in the promulgation of the teachings and guidance of Baha'u'llah) is something we feel would be a very good thing - that the partisan politics, and religious intolerance be turned into respect and care and support and community would do very well by the world!

But at the essence of triumphalism is the sense that "I" or "we" a *right* and others are wrong. I would suppose everyone feels this way sooner or later. But a far more enduring understanding is that we are at our best when we commit ourselves to the truth, and we are at our worst when we forget the truth and become preoccupied with ourselves. The topic is certainly refered to in the Baha'i Scripture (as in others.)