Christians and Magic/Harry Potter

Quahom1 said:
Hate to break it to y'all, but Christians love magic. In fact they expect it everyday (and get it). Q
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Well I guess ...............If you are a person of prayer for example.........:

Praying...........thinking or saying thoughts to your perceived God.........and then expecting and/or actually receiving an answer.......hmmmmmmmm

Thoughts on waves to an entity and then the entity sending thoughts.. waves...events ....back.:confused: Magic?????

Yes this is one of the issues that has always quite puzzled me.......any believers in any god..................believing the weirdest things and then pointing fingers at others of other faiths that believe in weird things and then calling them weird.

Or is it? Good magic equals a Christian/Bad magic equals a witch?

Don't mind me I am just thinking aloud and getting my feet wet here.

But this subject does resonate with me .............

My mother was a Catholic.....................now she is Wiccan/Mother Earth etc.......I professed myself as Christian to her and to myself for many years. I never told her I dissapproved of her practices ...............we just didn't talk religion.

This year for Christmas(early family christmas party) I gave her a Halloween Barbie (found it on clearance). She loves witch stuff. I came right out and told her that I did not want her to feel like she could not share her religion with me. I told her ...........I follow Jesus............He was of a good spirit......and "Mom............if you are a witch...........you are a good witch.......you are of a good spirit......good spirits are good spirits"
 
harticulate said:
Well I guess ...............If you are a person of prayer for example.........:

Praying...........thinking or saying thoughts to your perceived God.........and then expecting and/or actually receiving an answer.......hmmmmmmmm

Thoughts on waves to an entity and then the entity sending thoughts.. waves...events ....back.:confused: Magic?????

Yes this is one of the issues that has always quite puzzled me.......any believers in any god..................believing the weirdest things and then pointing fingers at others of other faiths that believe in weird things and then calling them weird.

Or is it? Good magic equals a Christian/Bad magic equals a witch?

Don't mind me I am just thinking aloud and getting my feet wet here.

But this subject does resonate with me .............

My mother was a Catholic.....................now she is Wiccan/Mother Earth etc.......I professed myself as Christian to her and to myself for many years. I never told her I dissapproved of her practices ...............we just didn't talk religion.

This year for Christmas(early family christmas party) I gave her a Halloween Barbie (found it on clearance). She loves witch stuff. I came right out and told her that I did not want her to feel like she could not share her religion with me. I told her ...........I follow Jesus............He was of a good spirit......and "Mom............if you are a witch...........you are a good witch.......you are of a good spirit......good spirits are good spirits"
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Magic is magic neither good nor bad. The intent of the magic maker determines the good or evil of it. What is considered magic today, often enough becomes "science" tomorrow. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Thomas said:
Remember that a 'spell' is a superimposition of your will upon another person or thing to force them/it to perform according to your desire.
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Uh, no. Not in Wicca, at least. Forcing anyone or anything to do anything is a great big no-no in Wicca, and will inevitably turn around and bite you in a big way. A spell is a means to focus your energy and your will in order to change the circumstances of your own life. In fact, most Wiccans I know preface their spellwork with a call to the Deities, something along the lines of "If it is not contrary to Your will..."

Remember also that there is evidence enough to believe that the practitioner will evoke any spirit, demonic or otherwise, to support him/her in this endeavour to bend another to his will?
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I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're meaning to say here. What sort of evidence are you talking about? Practitioner of what, exactly? Are you referring to someone in particular (even a hypothetical someone) or to any practitioner of any sort of magic or spellwork? If that last, then again, no. Many Wiccans, and other Pagans too, I dare say, do absolutely no evocations of any sort of spirit. And of those that do, I don't think anyone with any sense of cause-and-effect would care to evoke a demonic spirit. As any Christian would agree, there's a big difference between recognizing the existence of evil spirits and wanting to work closely with them.

Reading any text will also highlight the fact that steps must be taken to ensure one's safety in the event of 'backfire'. The circle in which the magician stands is there to protect him/her against any 'fallout' from the invocation going wrong - against 'collateral damage' as modern parlance has it.
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Well, not necessarily. The circle is also to protect you from disturbing outside influences - like how you close the door, turn off the TV, and ask your kids to keep it down when you're about to make an important phone call. It's also an aid in focus - like talking into a megaphone. And the strongest circle in the world won't protect you from the "fallout" you'll incur on yourself by attempting to "force" anyone or anything.

Besides which, in the HP books casting a circle is never really mentioned, except, I believe, when Dark Wizards are doing magic.

How many times does it have to be said? Ask any magician or Pagan, there's no way you could learn magic/k or spellwork by reading a Harry Potter book or seeing a movie. Kids wanting to learn HP-style magic who look into Paganism or ritual magic/k will be sorely disappointed. In that sense, Thomas, I agree with you - it's just a story.
 
I agree that it is just a story and probably bears little or no relation to any real pagan practices, I think we can all agree on that.

My point is that any attempt to ban this book, even to certain audiences (like children for example) on the basis that it portrays paganism and witchcraft, is a form of discrimination.

It would not be acceptable to ban children from reading a book which portrays Islam or Judaism for example, and any attempt to do so would surely (and rightly) be met with great opposition, not least on this forum. But this attempt to keep children away from any reference to witchcraft is met with a kind of mildly irritated amusement.

We westerners have spent centuries oppressing an ancient and noble religion, spreading lies about its practices and practitioners and at times, horribly killing anyone suspected of being involved in it. In this age of reason (dare I call it that?) isn't it about time to call off the witchhunt and show our brothers and sisters some real tolerance and maybe ..... even love?
 
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We westerners have spent centuries oppressing an ancient and noble religion, spreading lies about its practices and practitioners and at times, horribly killing anyone suspected of being involved in it. In this age of reason (dare I call it that?) isn't it about time to call off the witchhunt and show our brothers and sisters some real tolerance and maybe ..... even love?

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about Catholicism!

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
We westerners have spent centuries oppressing an ancient and noble religion, spreading lies about its practices and practitioners and at times, horribly killing anyone suspected of being involved in it. In this age of reason (dare I call it that?) isn't it about time to call off the witchhunt and show our brothers and sisters some real tolerance and maybe ..... even love?


Thomas
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Well said Thomas. :D
 
wandering_wind said:
Hey everyone!

Hope everything's going well lol

Okay, well I read this kind of... well message on a website while browsing around and it was about how it was wrong for a christian to have anything to do with magic whether it be directly or as entertainment like Harry Potter and all. The link is at the bottom. So yea I was wondering what you guys thought of magic and if it really is a form of satan language or whatever. I won't go into my opinion haha, but all in all, I do Not agree with what the message says. I'm just curious to see what you think.

Thanks!

Jess

[url="http://www.ericbarger.com/potter-christians.htm"]http://www.ericbarger.com/potter-christians.htm[/url]
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Hi Jess!!

Its been a while since you posted this, but Im not on here alot, so thats why Im a bit late with my reply! Im a Catholic, so, Im Christian but I have to say, I dont believe magic is the tool of satan or what ever and regardin Harry Potter, I love the books and the movies too and I love alot of fantasy books and such, I think its really cool and theres nothing wrong with it, at least thats what I think! I know people that dont think like me, so I never talk to them about Harry Potter or anything, but, I let them be the way they are and they let me be the way I am :) So yeah, I guess this answers your question, not all Christians/ insert religion here think the same way :)

Peace and Love,
Sr Anna
 
I don't condemn HP, and I'm not sure on whether HP is spiritually moral or not because I heard both sides and both of them have good points. However here is one question I want you guys to ponder...

What does God say about our Imagination? or If you can't find it in the bible, What would God say about our Imagination? Is imagination the gift of God planted in the human mind? If so then can that imagination become curropted?

TV, Video games, Media, Magazines, and other worldly sources can curropt our imagination or distract us from spending time with God as well. Can books do the same?
 
I certainly wouldn't try to 'prevent' anyone from reading HP books or watching the flicks... I think it would be just plain stupid and an infringement of another's right to choose their own entertainment (so long as it is not harming another)...

However... That said...

While I don't think that anyone and everyone who watches a HP flick is going to run off and become a demon worshipping psychopath - which *rolls eyes* I've heard some (who should know better) claim - I do see the potential that a small number of the total number of viewers/readers will be influenced into thinking that magick is all fluffy, harmless bumpf... any serious practitioner of Magick will tell you that there ARE dangers... *shrugs* hey! I was a pagan (on the Left Hand Path) myself... (you can read a bit more about that at my site - link in my profile)

Now that I am a Christian I feel that it is only right (and a responsibility to - for want of a better term) to warn ppl of the dangers in Magick (both those acknowledged by practitioners) and those defined in Scripture... the old analogy of "If someone was in a burning house would you warn them to get out?" comes in here... yeah I know it's not a 'perfect fit' but few analogies are but I think you see what I'm getting at...

As someone mentioned earlier (I think), Harry Potter makes no mention of the Wiccan Rede, the Sabbats etc etc... but Wicca is not the only form of Witchcraft nor is it even the only form of Neo-Pagan Witchcraft... My old Coven did not practice the Wiccan Rede and in fact 'The Rite of Vengence' was officially accepted into the Coven's 'Book of Shadows'. This was even reflected in the Coven's Motto: "Sic Gorgiamus Alius Subjectatus Nunc" ("We Gladly Devour All those Who Would Subdue Us")...

I personally think much more is made of Harry Potter than is neccessary - others will disagree - but as I said that's my personal view...

But as I said above and I say it again so there is no ambiguity here - and I say this as one who was the High Priest of a Neo-Pagan Coven before coming to Christ... Harry Potter is NOT a 'training manual' designed to intruduce kids to Witchcraft!!!! AND... Reading the books or watching the filns does NOT mean that your child will become a demon worshipping, blood drinking maniac (as I have herad some claim)...

That said...

It does have SOME impact however... in much the same way as TV shows and movies like Charmed, The Craft et al...

When I was High Priest of a Coven here in Western Australia out of every 100 enquiries re Coven membership only a handful were NOT from teenaged girls who wanted to be like Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Shannon Doherty from Charmed... Yes it is a false view of Wicca and Neo-Pagan Witchcraft and certainly not what my Coven was about... but that's what they were after and to a large extent the likes of $ilver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne catered for them and lined their pockets with the proceeds...

In much the same way, when Oberon Zell (founder of the Neo-Pagan 'Chucrch of All Worlds') is putting out stuff like this...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1564147118/qid=1114144249/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-8310467-2099831?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.greyschool.com/main.asp

To say Harry Potter has NO effect ... well... it kinda rings hollow now-a-days...

I must admit that with Hogwart's being such AGGRESSIVELY protected trademark (HP fan-sites are always being shut down for copyright breaches) old Oberon has been quite clever in his presentation of his Hogwarts 'clone' "School of Wizardry" and - dare I say specific - in his 'target audience'...

Must be really miffed about all that lost income from potential CAW memberships that $ilver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne nabbed by NOT larfing at those teen girls that liked The Craft and Charmed et al and wanted to be "just like Shannon Doherty"...
 
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hello everyone

it was very interesting all the replies.

In my opinion, magic in movies are based in imagination, which we should never allow our children to stop their imagination. so, when you go to a book store to buy a HP edition, in which section is it? i think its in fiction right? it just makes me feel really bad when people just want to get attention from anywhere.

I grew up in mexico, although most of the population are cristians ( catholics, jehova witnes, advents of the sevent day) magic and witch-craft is very common and very is nearly a must when you have a problem and you dont know what to do.

so in this theme of not accepting magic because the bible says; its obnocious!!!!

love

seeta:) ;)
 
out of every 100 enquiries re Coven membership only a handful were NOT from teenaged girls who wanted to be like Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Shannon Doherty from Charmed...
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that is very telling...

but the question is 10, 20, 100 years ago...what were the high percentage of inquiries stemming from... and has the number of inquiries increased with movies, books, tv shows? and the ratio of converts to inquiries...has it substantially changed?
 
seeta said:
hello everyone

it was very interesting all the replies.

In my opinion, magic in movies are based in imagination, which we should never allow our children to stop their imagination. so, when you go to a book store to buy a HP edition, in which section is it? i think its in fiction right? it just makes me feel really bad when people just want to get attention from anywhere.

I grew up in mexico, although most of the population are cristians ( catholics, jehova witnes, advents of the sevent day) magic and witch-craft is very common and very is nearly a must when you have a problem and you dont know what to do.

so in this theme of not accepting magic because the bible says; its obnocious!!!!

love

seeta:) ;)
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Indeed, and welcome to CR! ;)

One of the problems with the Christian faith, is the fact that the moral majority, is not the majority of Christians. The loudest of the Christian advocates in the United States for example are the "fundimentalists". Their motto, is to keep it simple, clean, and pure. They are not however, the majority of Christianity, in the states or world wide. However, since the squeaky wheel gets the grease, they get alot of attention, and hence Christianity is more or less judged by their projection and behavior.

Of course with "power", comes "authority", whether presumed or real. And they declare usually there is nothing magical in the Christian faith.

The rest of the Christian fold quietly thinks different. Christianity is nothing if not mystical on all fronts. And to any onlooker, it smacks of ritual and magic. I suspect to the unknowledgable, it is magic.

Even fundimentalists express a kind of magic, based on the faith they place in the Word of God. The Power of the Word of God is everything, and nothing can override it. That too is a kind of "magic" to those who do not understand Christianity.

Also, as a side note: The author of HP has promised all a surprise with her last book...and she alluded to the surprise as something Christians might be caught off guard with...that is all she said about it.

I look forward to the last book of HP. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Here's an idea.

The films Dogma and Constantine, do they make people want to be Christian?
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Don't know, however the "Passion of Christ" certainly shook up some folk...
 
I teach Middle School and I agree with those who said if it gets kids reading
then I'm all for it. I further agree that HP is not a threat to our immortal souls.

For those who think that is , I offer this advice : Don't read it !!
 
To my mind - coming at this from the perspective of being a Christian exWitch - this ties in VERY MUCH with 1 Corinthians chapters 8-10


Unfortuneately what I intended to post (a repost of two blog entries of mine) was faaaaarrrr to long for the system here to handle over 1500 words too long in fact I'll just post the links here...

I hope that people will be open minded enough to take the time to read both..

An exWitch's Thoughts on Harry Potter - This is just a repost of my earlier post on this thread for those that haven't read it already...

More thoughts on Harry Potter - This is a continuation of my previous blog entry An exWitch's thoughts on Harry Potter...

Just my opinion - albeit a rather long winded one - as a Christian exWitch...
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Ive been thinking again about this topic.

Is it possible that children will pick up witchcraft from Harry Potter.

I dont know.

But if they do, why is it so undesireable?



Forever
Awaiting The Fifth.
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I had to smile when I read this. Kids canot pick up the Craft of the Wise from the HP books, because it's not in the books.

They're full of magic the way our inner children would like magic to be - wave a wand, pronounce the words the right way, and ~poof~ you enemy is paralyzed.

It doesn't work that way, IRL
 
Käthe said:
I had to smile when I read this. Kids canot pick up the Craft of the Wise from the HP books, because it's not in the books.

They're full of magic the way our inner children would like magic to be - wave a wand, pronounce the words the right way, and ~poof~ you enemy is paralyzed.

It doesn't work that way, IRL
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I CERTAINLY agree that it just doesn't work that way in real life and I for one certainly would not try to 'prevent' anyone from reading HP books or watching the flicks... I think it would be just plain stupid and an infringement of another's right to choose their own entertainment (so long as it is not harming another)...

However... That said...

While I don't think that anyone and everyone who watches a HP flick is going to run off and become a demon worshipping psychopath - which *rolls eyes* I've heard some (who should know better) claim - I do see the potential that a small number of the total number of viewers/readers will be influenced into thinking that magick is all fluffy, harmless bumpf... any serious practitioner of Magick will tell you that there ARE dangers... *shrugs* hey! I was a pagan (on the Left Hand Path) myself...

Now that I am a Christian I feel that it is only right (and a responsibility to - for want of a better term) to warn ppl of the dangers in Magick (both those acknowledged by practitioners) and those defined in Scripture... the old analogy of "If someone was in a burning house would you warn them to get out?" comes in here... yeah I know it's not a 'perfect fit' but few analogies are but I think you see what I'm getting at...

As mentioned previously Harry Potter makes no mention of the Wiccan Rede, the Sabbats etc etc... but Wicca is not the only form of Witchcraft nor is it even the only form of Neo-Pagan Witchcraft... My old Coven did not practice the Wiccan Rede and in fact 'The Rite of Vengence' was officially accepted into the Coven's 'Book of Shadows'. This was even reflected in the Coven's Motto: "Sic Gorgiamus Alius Subjectatus Nunc" ("We Gladly Devour All those Who Would Subdue Us")...

Now I personally think much more is made of Harry Potter than is neccessary - others will disagree - but as I said that's my personal view...

But as I said above and I say it again so there is no ambiguity here - and I say this as one who was the High Priest of a Neo-Pagan Coven before coming to Christ (details at MY WEBSITE)... Harry Potter is NOT a 'training manual' designed to intruduce kids to Witchcraft!!!! AND... Reading the books or watching the filns does NOT mean that your child will become a demon worshipping, blood drinking maniac (as I have herad some claim)...

That said...

It does have SOME impact however... in much the same way as TV shows and movies like Charmed, The Craft et al...

When I was High Priest of a Coven here in Western Australia out of every 100 enquiries re Coven membership only a handful were NOT from teenaged girls who wanted to be like Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Shannon Doherty from Charmed... Yes it is a false view of Wicca and Neo-Pagan Witchcraft and certainly not what my Coven was about... but that's what they were after and to a large extent the likes of $ilver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne catered for them and lined their pockets with the proceeds...
In much the same way, when Oberon Zell (founder of the Neo-Pagan 'Church of All Worlds') is putting out stuff like this...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1564147118/qid=1114144249/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-8310467-2099831?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1564147118/002-2797232-8278442?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.greyschool.com/main.asp

To say Harry Potter has NO effect/impact ... well... it kinda rings hollow now-a-days...

I must admit that with Hogwart's being such AGGRESSIVELY protected trademark (HP fan-sites are always being shut down for copyright breaches) old Oberon has been quite clever in his presentation of his Hogwarts 'clone' "School of Wizardry" and - dare I say specific - in his 'target audience'...

Old Oberon and CAW must be really miffed about all that lost income from potential CAW memberships that $ilver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne nabbed by NOT larfing at those teen girls that liked The Craft and Charmed et al and wanted to be "just like Shannon Doherty"...

If nothing else HP is certainly being used quite effectively - and profitably too I would imagine - as a "recruitment tool" by Oberon Zell and the Church of All Worlds...
 
exwitchoz said:
It does have SOME impact however... in much the same way as TV shows and movies like Charmed, The Craft et al...
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I imagine that if anything, the impact is minimal in terms of "recruitment"'. And, frankly, if the impact is that folks who read HP books and/or watch "Charmed" and "The Craft" come away thinking that perhaps the old condemnation of all Witches as inherently evil is inaccurate, then all to the good, IMO.
 
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