What did the Pharisees represent?

Moses is important only to the Jews.
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Seems to me Moses is important to Christians, Muslims and Jews....in the US the movie the Ten Commandments has been shown and watched every year for what 40 years! Anytime a quasi historical religious picture is presented that many times to a prime time audience says the theme means a little bit to somebody...and this picture mainly portrays the life of Moses...

Do the current studies still indicate the books were penned by Moses? I thought that has been modified. Does anyone know the age of the most ancient of these books and how much of the book is intact? (I'm inquiring as to an actual artifact here)
 
wil said:
Seems to me Moses is important to Christians, Muslims and Jews....in the US the movie the Ten Commandments has been shown and watched every year for what 40 years! Anytime a quasi historical religious picture is presented that many times to a prime time audience says the theme means a little bit to somebody...and this picture mainly portrays the life of Moses...
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It has taken me all my life to finally understand that Moses, being a Jew, and the Torah, being a Jewish document, are of primary importance to Jews. I, as a Gentile, am not called to be Torah observant. I attempt to follow the Seven Laws of Noach. With that being said, I find there to be great amounts of fruit to be gleaned from the rest of the Tanakh; however, it is a Jewish document that outlines Jewish history. Christians and Muslims have an interest in it, because of their own metaphorical/allegorical situations, but the fact of the matter is that it's Jewish.

wil said:
Do the current studies still indicate the books were penned by Moses? I thought that has been modified.
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Forgive me, wil, for not clarifying. I am speaking of rabbinic tradition. The same tradition that says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch is also decidedly quiet on any existence of Jesus. That's the perspective I was coming from.

wil said:
Does anyone know the age of the most ancient of these books and how much of the book is intact? (I'm inquiring as to an actual artifact here)
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Not my area of knowledge, sorry.
 
Does anyone know the age of the most ancient of these books and how much of the book is intact?
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I'm not totaly sure But I think the dead sea scrolls are the oldest we have. I'd google it.


Personally, I wouldn't put Moses and Jesus on the same level
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Both Had a big part to play in history(traditionaly speaking). Both according to tradition played apart in setting people free. Both are only recognized by their followers, but not by other parties involved in their own unique situation. As I agree both are on different levels, but both play very important roles. Kinda like a floor of a building and a roof.


I am speaking of rabbinic tradition. The same tradition that says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch is also decidedly quiet on any existence of Jesus.
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Tradition meaning the Talmud? I just read its history ( Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) WOW It would not surprise me if You found any Christianity stuff in their. From the Pope Forbidding it, to the jews rewriting it. Man what a terrible History and sad. But We both Know the world has never fully accepted either religion to its purist form, and mostly persecuted us, or we each other. But Some of what I've read, would confirm to me why their is not much writing of Christ if any in the Talmud. Being that the Christians of that day didnt seem very Christ like. Of course not much has changed :( .

I also did a google search on Christ in the Talmud, and couldnt find any middle ground all was pretty much one way or the other with hate and anger in their writings about either Christ or the Talmud.......

But I did find a Talmud sight which doesnt seem hatefull The Talmud (Translated by Michael L. Rodkinson) ....

Could I get one of you guys to glance at it and tell me if it is cosure: OR maybe one of you guys Recognize this guy? I am interested in this, beucase before I came in here I never knew their was a talmud aside from tradition of the elders and the books of the old testament.

One thing that supports Moses' actual existence is that he penned five books. Jesus never wrote a thing (at least that we have record of).
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Jesus lived to be 32 or 33, and was only in his ministry for 3 years, and was pretty much hated by the scribes and preist. That would kinda of make it a little hard to write and publish a book in that era. But their was a lot of his deciples writtings about him after words. Moses lived much longer, and wasnt totally hated, though I'm sure he musta wondered a few times;) .

Anyways being that we have gotten off topic, we may have to agree to disagree on certian things, but I have learned a lot. And found some new reading material :) . THANX VERY MUCH.:) But maybe we should start a discussion similar to this on the compare section if their is not one? :)
Thanx guys
 
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i've always found sacred-texts.com, to be reliable, rather than kosher, which for me would imply affiliation with a recognised jewish authority, group or institution, if you get my drift.

if you are an academic or a historian, there is very little of what would be considered hard and fast "proof" that such a person as moses actually existed. i mean, it was 3000 years ago and he didn't build monuments. apparently books don't count because they're not large, immovable stone objects. i don't think anyone seriously doubts jesus existed as a human being, as opposed to absolutely everything else about him - what he said, what he meant, who his parents were, what his opinions and practices were and so on. with moses, there's a lot of consensus around all of these things, but absolutely no "hard" evidence.

for religious people, whether jewish or christian, i think relying on secular/academic/supposedly impartial and objective validation for a religious belief or viewpoint is a waste of time; that's why it's called "belief". i don't believe in the postman, because i don't have to.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
for religious people, whether jewish or christian, i think relying on secular/academic/supposedly impartial and objective validation for a religious belief or viewpoint is a waste of time; that's why it's called "belief". i don't believe in the postman, because i don't have to.
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That wasnt quite the point I was pointing out. Both men Existed, but Aparently the ones that was persecuting them didnt want it in history.

But this point aside you may find this sight very interesting, about the proof of Isreals biblical history:


Debate Topics: Historical


ps: Its the same sight I was asking yah to look it. :) ( sacred text)
 
This may appear to be off-topic, but it is related .... there is no proof that King Arthur ever existed .... yet the search for the holy grail, a central part of the legend of Arthur, is related to many biblical references .... the grail itself has been described as many things: as a stone, fallen from the crown of the Angel of Light during the war in Heaven; as a cauldron of celtic antiquity; as the cup used by Christ to celebrate the last supper and the first eucharist, or a jewel (the philosopher's stone?) .... the idea was to search for the castle where the vessel was kept and upon finding it, it would bring healing to the wounded king and the land over which he ruled or the healing of the waste land .... this almost sounds like it could be connected with the exile and the dry wilderness .... but as far as I can tell (from the symbols) the tales of arthur are metaphors and they relate to metaphors found in the bible .... yet how many of us grew up believing that arthur was a real king .... follow the yellow brick road .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine
 
I'd be very interested in hearing what the current Rabbinical view is on the authorship of the 5 books of Moses. The Christian Scholars today are leaning toward 5 different groups of authors/writers..and then more that edited. And I read some discussion amongst Jewish Scholars as well. Of course it is all theories and quite disputed, but as the direction away from the books being authored by Moses have been growing since before I was born, I would think these discussions are also going on in the Jewish community. Now of course in Sunday school we were taught that these books were dictated from G!d to Moses who wrote them...and many are stilll learning in this fashion.

My question is, what are the Rabbi's who are studying this issue saying?

Jewish Learning

Straight Dope

Devarim

Probe Ministries

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the pharisees looked down on others ,and they had a self-righteous attitute,
They completely lost sight of the important matters, namely, justice, mercy, faithfulness, and love of God.
 
Watch Out for Self-Righteousness!


A Superior Attitude

"Stop Judging"


Misguided Zeal



God Favors the Humble Ones
 
bananabrain said:
what, like you JWs, you mean? sheesh, it's like talking to a brick wall. but then, that's cults for you, i suppose.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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humility works wonders and it leads to great blessings :) from the Almighty .


and it also leads to spiritual food in abundance matthew 24;45-47 Daniel 12;4


and i have found those faithful to God ...................Jehovahs witnesses :)
 
The Pharisees found fault with Jesus and his disciples because of their not practicing the traditional washing of hands. (Mt 15:1, 2; Mr 7:1-5; Lu 11:37, 38)

But Jesus exposed their wrong reasoning and showed them to be violators of God’s law on account of their adherence to man-made traditions. (Mt 15:3-11; Mr 7:6-15; Lu 11:39-44)
 
ok, so from a reading of those verses, jesus is condemning hypocrisy, rather than being a pharisee per se. he's criticising people who are punctilious in commandments that are "bein adam le-Maqom" (between man and G!D) at the same time as they transgress commandments between man and man. jesus is maintaining a correct jewish moral stance and is clearly using the transgression of a ritual commandment to make it obvious to all that a sin has been committed! i actually think this is a lovely bit of teaching, albeit breaking commandments publicly in order to educate is probably a bit halakhically suspect. i don't see anything here which is not in the spirit of precisely the pharisees that i have described. the problem is here that you are using "pharisee" as a label to describe moral hypocrisy, when in fact it was these same pharisees that held precisely the views that you ascribe to jesus.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
The Pharisees may have been highly esteemed by men, but not by God.
On another occasion Jesus said to these Pharisees: "You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight."—Luke 16:15.





howPharisees "Shut Up the Kingdom"

Moreover, the Jewish clergy sought to block those seeking to enter through the narrow gate. ​



"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in." (Matthew 23:13) ​



The Pharisees’ method was just as Jesus warned. They would "cast out [his disciples’] name as wicked for the sake of the Son of man." (Luke 6:22) ​



Because the man born blind and healed by Christ believed that Jesus was the Messiah, they expelled him from the synagogue. His parents would answer no questions because they feared expulsion from the synagogue.


For the same reason, others who believed Jesus to be the Messiah hesitated to admit it publicly.—John 9:22, 34; 12:42; 16:2.​



 
chokmah said:
I apologize for over-stepping my bounds. I should have just said that there is no mention of Jesus in the Talmud. There are many passages that people try to tie to the Jesus of Christianity; yet, I have seen refutation after refutation regarding each and every supposed passage.
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It requires a ridiculous level of special pleading not to understand this one:
"Think you that Yeshua was treated unfairly? Not so, for he was a beguiler and deceiver, who sought to leave Israel astray, and of such a one it is written, you shall neither pity nor spare him. Moreover, he was near to the civil authority. So runners were sent out, crying, Is there anyone who will speak in defense of this man? But none were found, so they hanged him on the eve of Passover."
 
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