B
Bandit
Guest
this is so true as well as your other statements. i think we are seeing the same thing all the way through on that.Dondi said:
Are Christian narrow-minded?
- Thread starter Dondi
- Start date
B
Bandit
Guest
Abogado del Diablo said:
true again. i think some things are quite the same, but some things are different. a lot of things have a meeting point if we try, though some do not.
B
Bandit
Guest
Faithfulservant said:
true again. i think it is a pretty box Faithful
dont let anyone discourage you.
some Christians are narrow-minded, some are not. Just as some people of other faiths fall into either camp as well. It's very individual.
I post this periodically, because it seems that alot of people are unaware that this is not a statement just confined to Christianity. Most of the major religions have a similar statement.
CHRISTIANITY, John 14:6
1. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through Me.
BUDDHISM, Dhammapada 20:274
2. This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.
ISLAM, Imam'Ali, Hadith
3. Whoso seeks guidence elsewhere, God will lead him astray.
BAHA'I, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, P.169
4. He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from
all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.
HINDUISM, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
5. Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.
ZOROASTRIANISM, The Teachings of the Magi, P.22
6. There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good
thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of
light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.
So to me this points that the Christ spirit is the same spirit of God whom comes to us through all of His messengers. This is what is referred to as the Way. The Spirit of God is the Way. In whatever form He appears.
I post this periodically, because it seems that alot of people are unaware that this is not a statement just confined to Christianity. Most of the major religions have a similar statement.
CHRISTIANITY, John 14:6
1. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through Me.
BUDDHISM, Dhammapada 20:274
2. This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.
ISLAM, Imam'Ali, Hadith
3. Whoso seeks guidence elsewhere, God will lead him astray.
BAHA'I, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, P.169
4. He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from
all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.
HINDUISM, Bhagavad Gita 18:66
5. Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.
ZOROASTRIANISM, The Teachings of the Magi, P.22
6. There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good
thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of
light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.
So to me this points that the Christ spirit is the same spirit of God whom comes to us through all of His messengers. This is what is referred to as the Way. The Spirit of God is the Way. In whatever form He appears.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
9Harmony, I didn't realise that there were so many similiar exclusive claims in some of the other religions. My thinking is that it serves to keep members in the "flock". I thought that Baha'i, for one, was an all inclusive religion, but evidently Baha'u'llah is basically saying the same thing as Christ.
Faithfulservant said:
Faithful servant,
Jesus rarely spoke of himself in the first person. The many "I am" statements that you make reference to from the Gospel of John originated from the Gospel author, not from Jesus.
The Gospel of John represents a religious tradition that is independent from the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, and Luke). They differ so much that either John or the Synoptic Gospels must be largely abandoned in the quest for an understanding of Jesus' actual sayings and acts.
Please note: that most other faiths recognise the historical existence of jesus.
I take the viewpoint that Jesus is ONE of the many ways to god
Dondi said:
Hi Dondi,
I think alot of confusion results due to the fact that each of the prophets really speaks with 2 voices. The voice of man, and the voice of God. These statements i believe are relating more to the voice of God. So in essence there is no contradiction, they are all saying that God is the Way. Yet man in our inadequate understanding takes it to be the voice of the man speaking. And if we look at it that way, then they do all appear to be exclusive, yet, if we change our perspective and consider the possibility that it is really the voice of God, then they are all saying the same thing. (imho)
have a great day!
-Amy
Dondi
Well-Known Member
9Harmony said:Hi Dondi,
I think alot of confusion results due to the fact that each of the prophets really speaks with 2 voices. The voice of man, and the voice of God. These statements i believe are relating more to the voice of God. So in essence there is no contradiction, they are all saying that God is the Way. Yet man in our inadequate understanding takes it to be the voice of the man speaking. And if we look at it that way, then they do all appear to be exclusive, yet, if we change our perspective and consider the possibility that it is really the voice of God, then they are all saying the same thing. (imho)
have a great day!
-Amy
Ah, that clears it up...I think.
Quahom1 said:
How do you know that jesus did say he is "I am"?. All of the original copies of the gospels have been lost. We must rely upon hand-written copies which are an unknown number of replications removed from the originals. The oldest known surviving part of a gospel dates from about 125 CE.
Throughout most of the history of the church, the Gospel of John was believed to have been written by Jesus' disciple. A majority of theologians today believe that it was written by a group of authors. There is also speculation that much of the gospel was written by a single, unknown writer, and that a second, later individual reworked the text in order to make it conform to contemporary church teaching. Because of its theological principles and the emphasis on "Jesus as the Son of God", it rapidly became the favorite gospel.
Ciel
in essence
Hi 9 Harmony,
I may be as suggested, only a pretty empty box, but your words fill me with hope, in the understanding of one voice translated through many, when we truly listen to each other we understand the elements of human nature, and it's causes, apart from faith it is the way to find peace in this world in the understanding of each other.
I may be as suggested, only a pretty empty box, but your words fill me with hope, in the understanding of one voice translated through many, when we truly listen to each other we understand the elements of human nature, and it's causes, apart from faith it is the way to find peace in this world in the understanding of each other.
At_the_Wellspring
...always learning
Dondi said:
Sorry guys, this doesn't fit exactly what you are talking about right now, but thought I'd add my thoughts to the thread before I take off for the weekend
In my experience I have always struggled with the idea of what I would call the 'dividing line'. The idea that our way of doing things is the correct and right way, the way that church does this... that etc is a bit funny or wrong...
While I know that many churches work well together and come together in unity, I seem to have experienced more of churches talking against eachother. And I haven't been able to accept that one particular ritual, or way of thinking makes one group of people just that little bit more right.
As I have become more interested in other cultures, religions etc, I guess this has extended to the way that I see all religions. My interpretation (though I could be wrong) is that the idea of 'we're right, you're wrong', is more 'humanlike' than 'godlike'. I guess I've come more and more to believe that 'all paths lead to God'. While this beliefs sits comfortably with me and my experience of life, I know it doesn't for others - my cousin once told me I was just a "watered-down Christian".
Maybe my disillusionment with the phrase "no-one comes to the Father except through me" puts me beyond the 'dividing line', no longer a 'Christian'?
I've never particularly liked 'labels' anyway, as to me, all labels are a method of categorising people into one box or another, rather than recognising that, as I believe, we are much more complex than that. But at the same time I still feel a strong connection with my Christian upbringing and personal experiences and spiritual study that has all been within the sphere of Christian faith.
I haven't thought this through much, but I'm just pondering over whether all these statments of being the 'One Way' as 9Harmony mentioned - firstly, if they are actually all the 'One Way' (equal or the same?), or that they recognise the 'One Spirit' - but secondly that also they were talking about themselves in the context in which they lived and taught? Meaning they were the most 'Divinely enlightened' of their time and environment, and so were advising others to only follow them, rather than other false/ unreliable (or whatever) other sources that were around them. But actually, now that I've written that down it doesn't sound quite right, it sounds too similar to 'come to our church, not others, we are the closest to God'...
Hmm... don't know if that makes too much sense...
B
Bandit
Guest
just from my observation..i did not hear anyone call any person an empty box or any person an ugly box.
what i think it was is...'THE BOX' is empty & 'THE OTHER BOX' is not pretty.
i dont exactly like everyones BOX either, that does not mean I do not accept the person.
my observation could be wrong, but seeing this is a comparative study, everyone should be able to speak honestly without taking offense.
2 cents
what i think it was is...'THE BOX' is empty & 'THE OTHER BOX' is not pretty.
i dont exactly like everyones BOX either, that does not mean I do not accept the person.
my observation could be wrong, but seeing this is a comparative study, everyone should be able to speak honestly without taking offense.
2 cents
Dondi
Well-Known Member
At_the_Wellspring said:
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Even Jesus said at one point that "...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Perhaps He was the Only Way at that time because He was trying to get Israel back to the rightful worship of God, rather than the legalistic religion that the Judiasm devolved to. Many times He blasted the scribes and Pharasees saying they "... shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matt 23:13). He came to turn the peoples thinking beyond the Law that they had imposed their traditions on. In Matt. 5, Jesus expounds on the commandments, equating it against one's brother without cause with "Thou shall not kill" and lusting after another woman with "Thou shall not commit adultery." He came for His people Israel. And at that period in time, in light of the legalistic teachings of His day, no one can come to the Father unless they went through Him. Just a thought.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Ciel said:
I think its interesting that you took my metaphor as a personal strike.. That was not my intention I was likening your concept of what Christ is to my concept of Christ and how inacceptable it was to my way of thinking. We are attempting to discuss the narrow mindedness of Christians and I happen to fall into that catergory so I feel I must speak for myself and others of my faith. The attack if you could call it was originally at my doorstep.
I definitely am disheartened that you think that I/we would ever wish hell on anyone.. I have had people in my life do horrible horrible things that anyone in their right mind would hate them for and wish them to go to hell and I DO NOT wish that on anyone!! If anything these people are in my prayers more than anyone else because we are supposed to pray for our enemies and I believe that it is so we dont fall into that hate mentality.. You cannot truly hate someone and pray for them.
Just because I dont want them to go to hell does not diminish the reality of it. I dont want someone to get cancer but that doesnt mean it wont happen if they keep smoking..
It seems to me that you think that I get to choose what I believe.. That simply because something is horrible it means I shouldnt believe in it.. Think about that for a second. It looks good... feels good... but its not realistic to me.
I also do not know what your concept of hell is.. Its not the same as mine and Im not entirely sure if either one of us has the correct idea of it.. I do know one thing.. God isnt in hell .. divine mother and father.. whatever term we use. God certainly is in New Orleans right now.. He is with everyone there that much I do know so as long as God is there we have hope and love and compassion and the courage of our good people.. I also know that satan is there doing what he can to circumvent the work of God and my prayers are for these people as well.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Cobber.. Its very difficult to discuss the bible with someone who wont accept its validity.. Anything I say.. you would say "but how do you know he said that.. the copies were lost" Know what I mean? Its an unending circle of he said she said... gets nowhere fast and too much of a headache. This is why I usually stay in the Christianity forum.. you get a lot less of this kind of argument and even if someone does.. it gets squelched fast.
oh yeah theres also the " well I dont accept those books but I think these books are ok" people. And they use those certain books for their arguments but disregard the rest.. Im wondering if you are in that group. Im not sure though.. You never did specify your beliefs lol.
usually you can tell what group people are in by the terminology they use... like the divine mother and father.. or Jehovah or G-D.. Sometimes its not so easy..
Anyways.. This scripture is my guide in witnessing to people..
Romans 14
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.
He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
-----------------------------
I love that chapter..
oh yeah theres also the " well I dont accept those books but I think these books are ok" people. And they use those certain books for their arguments but disregard the rest.. Im wondering if you are in that group. Im not sure though.. You never did specify your beliefs lol.
usually you can tell what group people are in by the terminology they use... like the divine mother and father.. or Jehovah or G-D.. Sometimes its not so easy..
Anyways.. This scripture is my guide in witnessing to people..
Romans 14
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.
He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
-----------------------------
I love that chapter..
Ciel
in essence
Hi Bandit,
The box remark was made about my original post to faithfulservant.
It was said, a pretty box but empty.
It seemed the words contained no value to her.
This box is so empty of any wish to argue.
It can only state it's case, and allows it's self to be gently carried where one turns off the mind and floats downstream. It is created in it's own consciousness. There never was a box. The box is out.
The box remark was made about my original post to faithfulservant.
It was said, a pretty box but empty.
It seemed the words contained no value to her.
This box is so empty of any wish to argue.
It can only state it's case, and allows it's self to be gently carried where one turns off the mind and floats downstream. It is created in it's own consciousness. There never was a box. The box is out.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
lol flashback to a certain Star *pinches self*
Ciel.. I was not trying to offend you with my box analogy..it seems to me you are sensitive about your words being accepted as some sort of divine truth or mystical understanding of what spirituality should be. Or I might be confusing you with that certain Star.. If so, then my apologies. Like Ive said before.. CR would be boring if everyone had the same thoughts and beliefs and it wouldnt be very stimulating conversation.
c'est la vie..
Cant please everyone all the time...
Ciel.. I was not trying to offend you with my box analogy..it seems to me you are sensitive about your words being accepted as some sort of divine truth or mystical understanding of what spirituality should be. Or I might be confusing you with that certain Star.. If so, then my apologies. Like Ive said before.. CR would be boring if everyone had the same thoughts and beliefs and it wouldnt be very stimulating conversation.
c'est la vie..
Cant please everyone all the time...
Cobber said:
I choose to accept what I've learned, or I choose to not accept. I have studied the scrolls and other materials considered ancient. I cross reference "things" to attempt corrolation (it is the detective in me)
Finally, I try very hard to keep an open mind about the piece meal history we seem to have.
Of all the "historical" references we have at our disposal, religious scripture remains the most intact, wherein secular history is swiss cheese at best.
When all is said and done my friend, I have absolutely nothing to lose, by believing in a God of such kindness, magnitude, and confidence as the one who calls Himself Jesus of Nazareth. I have nothing to lose by trying to live by His example. And I have nothing to lose by believing in a Savior such as one Jesus professes himself to be. So it is all good.
v/r
Q