Brief history of the Baha'i Faith

Hello Imran!

According to Baha'i sources the father of the Bab was Siyyid Muhammad Rida (not Mirza Ali Bazzaz??? as you wrote) and His mother was also regarded as a descendent of Imam Husayn.

According to H.M. Balyuzi in his book The Bab:

"Through both His father and mother He descended from Imam Husayn." - p. 32

The mother of the Bab was Fatimih-Bagum the daughter of Mirza Muhammad Husayn.

A cousin of the Bab through his father was Haji Mirza Muhammad-Hasan (1815-1895). Mirza-i-Shirazi as he was also known as forced a cancellation of the tobacco concession in 1892.


As I explained earlier the views of Who the Bab was changed ...some thought in the beginning He was only a "Gate" for the twelfth Imam and later some regarded Him as fulfilling the prophecy of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi. So you disagree with this...

Baha'is have available to them extensive material about the Bab not all available yet in English, among these are the "Selections From the Writings of the Báb" in which the Bab revealed:

GOD had, in truth, proposed Our Mission unto the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to bear it and were afraid thereof. However, Man, this ‘Alí, Who is none other but the Great Remembrance of God, undertook to bear it. Hence God, the All-Encompassing, hath referred to Him in His Preserved Book as the ‘Wronged One’, and by reason of His being undistinguished before the eyes of men, He hath, according to the judgement of the Book, been entitled ‘the Unknown’…(See Qur’án 33:72)

Erelong We will, in very truth, torment such as waged war against Husayn [Imám Husayn], in the Land of the Euphrates, with the most afflictive torment, and the most dire and exemplary punishment….

God knoweth well the heart of Husayn, the heat of His burning thirst and His long-suffering for the sake of God, the Incomparable, the Ancient of Days; and unto Him God is verily a witness.

- p. 70

The new dispensation of the Bab was historically announced at the Conference of Badasht in 1848 but it had already been announced to those who were guided in 1844.. Reading the Persian Bayan one can also gather the new ordinances propoised by the Bab although many of these were later abrogated by "Him Whom God would make manifest" - Baha'u'llah at a later time.

The thread here is on Baha'i history and I think basically you have your own ideas from your perspective that are in conflict with Baha'i views... It seems you have a decided bias against the Faith.

Our purpose here is only to present the Baha'i perspective. If you disagree I'd suggest contacting Brian Turner and make a complaint to him.

- Art
 
imranshaykh said:
Hi:

You have got it right and wrong...
Unfortunately, the Bahais have used the culture as a mask to hide the fact that the Bab was not a Sayyed. His father was a Mirza - Mirza Ali Bazzaz.

Bab was a Sayyed only in title and not by birth. Which automatically disqualifies him as the claimed 12th Imam

Regards
Imran Shaykh
Click to expand...

No one has made the claim that Baha`u'llah was Siyyid.

The Fatwa against the Bab identifies Him as "Siyyid". He must have been such for the fatwa to call Him such.

Regards,

Scott
 
imranshaykh said:
Mirza in any culture means that the father is not a Sayyed - the mother is.
...

Unfortunately, the Bahais have used the culture as a mask to hide the fact that the Bab was not a Sayyed. His father was a Mirza - Mirza Ali Bazzaz.
Click to expand...


"Mirza short for Amirzadeh meaning born of a leader or chief, therefore Prince, but also came to describe those who could read and write thus describing a male secretary."A citation closer to my definition. Looking back to the 1800's Mirza as a matter of being literate might have ment being much better educated than the average person and so linking to my definition. Here's another and another and another. After searching the internet for definitions I find NONE following your proposed definition.

As for who the father of the Bab is:
"The Bab, whose name was 'Ali-Muhammad, was born in Shiraz, on the first of Muharram, in the year 1235 A.H. He was the descendant of a house renowned for its nobility, which traced its origin to Muhammad Himself. His father, Siyyid Muhammad-Rida, as well as His mother, were descendants of the Prophet, and belonged to families of recognised standing."Here.

The only "Bazaaz" in all of Baha'i literature I can find is an obscure and breif fellow travelor of the Bab on His pilgrimage to Mecca. He is mentioned in one paragraph and is certainly no relative. Clearly you have been mislead. In fact in all the internet the only place to make such a contention is http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bahai03.html which cites no facts whatsoever about this "information" which also happens to be authored by someone using your name.
 
smkolins said:
"Mirza short for Amirzadeh meaning born of a leader or chief, therefore Prince, but also came to describe those who could read and write thus describing a male secretary."A citation closer to my definition. Looking back to the 1800's Mirza as a matter of being literate might have ment being much better educated than the average person and so linking to my definition. Here's another and another and another. After searching the internet for definitions I find NONE following your proposed definition.

As for who the father of the Bab is:
"The Bab, whose name was 'Ali-Muhammad, was born in Shiraz, on the first of Muharram, in the year 1235 A.H. He was the descendant of a house renowned for its nobility, which traced its origin to Muhammad Himself. His father, Siyyid Muhammad-Rida, as well as His mother, were descendants of the Prophet, and belonged to families of recognised standing."Here.

The only "Bazaaz" in all of Baha'i literature I can find is an obscure and breif fellow travelor of the Bab on His pilgrimage to Mecca. He is mentioned in one paragraph and is certainly no relative. Clearly you have been mislead. In fact in all the internet the only place to make such a contention is http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bahai03.html which cites no facts whatsoever about this "information" which also happens to be authored by someone using your name.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I went and checked it out and Imran Shah did write that article in 1997. I notice he also lists a trio of Baha`i books on the right margin of his site, but strangely, none of them is written by the Bab or Baha`u'llah - he only lists A Traveller's Narrative, and Some Answered Questions by Abdu'l Baha and God Passes By, by Shoghi Effendi. I guess he thereby avoids refering anyone to the words of the Twin Manifestations directly.

The Bab's father passed away early in the Bab's life and it was His maternal uncle who raised Him. He had three maternal uncles, all merchants of high regard.
http://bci.org/bahaistudies/courses/Iqan/circumstances.htm

Hájí Mírzá Habíbu'lláh, an Afnán who was one of the custodians of the House of the Báb in Shíráz, has recorded the following account by his father, Áqá Mírzá Núru'd-Dín, a follower of the Báb, of a series of discussions which he held with Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad. These discussions appear to have been the turning-point in the spiritual life of the Báb's uncle.
...During the initial stages of our discussions Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad maintained a negative attitude and would repudiate any proof or argument that I put forward. These discussions lasted for several meetings. Once when I was talking with great fervour and conviction about the Faith, he turned to me in astonishment and exclaimed: 'Are you really saying that my nephew is the promised Qá'im?' When I reaffirmed my belief that He was, Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad became perplexed and expressed his view that this was all very strange. He then began to meditate and was lost in thought. Seeing him in this reflective mood, I could not prevent myself from laughing. He asked my reason for laughing, but as it would reflect badly upon him I was reluctant to tell. However, he insisted, so I told him: 'Your view that your nephew cannot be the promised Qá'im is similar to the objection which Abu-Lahab had. He also said "how could it be possible for my nephew to become a prophet?" But Muhammad was the true Prophet of God. Now it is up to you to investigate this Cause. You must be very proud that this Sun of Truth has dawned from your family and its Light shone forth from your home. Do not hold back from it and be not surprised. For God is able to make of your nephew the Promised One of Islám. Be assured that the hands of God are never tied.'

Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad was moved by these words. He said: 'This is an irrefutable answer. Now what shall I do?' I suggested to him that he might go as a pilgrim to the holy Shrines in 'Íráq, where he could also visit his sister (the mother of the Báb) who had been living there since the martyrdom of her son, then go to Baghdád, attain the presence of Bahá'u'lláh, ask his questions of Him and put forward his difficulties. I urged him to persevere in his search and to rely upon God. I expressed the hope that the veils which now prevented him from seeing the truth might be lifted from his eyes and that he might attain to the true Faith of God... He agreed to my suggestion and said that he felt in his heart that this was the right course to take.

Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad thereupon wrote a letter to his youngest brother Hájí Mírzá Hasan-'Alí, who was a merchant in Yazd, acquainted him with his plans to visit the Shrines and their sister, and invited him to join him in the journey. Hájí Mírzá Hasan-'Alí accepted and asked his brother to wait until he joined him in Shíráz... They both travelled to 'Íráq via Bushihr. Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad, however, did not intimate the real purpose of his journey to his brother until they arrived in Baghdád. There he informed him that his primary object in travelling to 'Íráq was to investigate the authenticity of the Faith and then to visit the Shrines and the mother of the Báb. He invited his brother to remain in Baghdád for a short period so that they both could attain the presence of Bahá'u'lláh and afterwards proceed to visit the Shrines.

On hearing this Hájí Mírzá Hasan-'Alí became angry and, although his junior in age, he spoke harshly to his brother. He warned that under no circumstances would he become a partner in these matters and that he did not wish to hear about the Faith. On that day he left Baghdád. [10-2]


When this happened, Hájí Mírzá Siyyid Muhammad decided to accompany his brother to the Shrines. It was on his return to Baghdád that he was taken to the house of Bahá'u'lláh where he attained His presence alone. This was in the year 1278 A.H. (A.D. 1862).

Of the three uncles two were Babi - one immediately, the other following his visit to the presence of Baha`u'llah. The third never became a follower of the Bab.

Regards,
Scott
 
Opposition to the Baha`i Faith is of course, nothing new. I quote here from:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/bahi.html

"Contemporary Issues and Controversies




  1. Since the Baha'i Faith's birth it has faced resistance and persecution from Iran. Many Baha'is have become martyrs and many are imprisoned due to the Iranian's government intolerance. Since the time of the Bab, his followers dealt with opposition. Iranian clergy have felt threatened by the Baha'i Faith principles and have acted upon their fears. The Shi'ite clergy views the Baha'is as heretics. Some of the Baha'is views are in contradiction to Islamic beliefs such as the Baha'is beliefs that there are more prophets to come after Muhammad, that the Koran has been abrogated in favour of Baha'u'llah's writings, that women should play an active role in society, that there is no importance of the holy war (jihad), and that clergy are not essential due to increased literacy. (Cole, 1990:28)

    Anti-Baha'i sentiment increased under Ayatollah Khomeini. Although in late 1988 oppression slightly lessened, Baha'is were still being accused of prostitution since their marriages are viewed as illegitimate, of spying since some of their conferences were in foreign cities, and of being Zionist supporters since their headquarters are in Haifa, Israel. Shi'ite clerics have arrested many Baha'is and tortured and executed them. (Cole, 1990:28-29)

    In Iran, the Baha'is are viewed as threats to aspects of modernity. They are seen as ruthless financiers. Their emphasis on education places them in prominent occupations in society and this power and influence is threatening to Shi'ite clergy. They are viewed as heretics who threaten the purity of Muslim women. Baha'is deny the authority of Shi'ite jurisprudence and therefore the essence of Iran's government. (Cole, 1990:29) All these components of the Baha'i Faith cause tension within Iran. Although in Iran Christians and Jews are permitted to freely practice their religion, Baha'is are denied that right. (Ostling, 1984:73)"

    The similarities of the experience of Jesus Christ at the hands of the Sanhedrans, Muhammed at the hands of the Meccans, and the Bab and Baha`u'llah at hands of the clergy of the previous religions is prodigious. I quote from Baha`u'llah:
    "Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which hath been the cause of such denial on the 5 part of those who have searched with such earnestness and longing. Their attack hath been more fierce than tongue or pen can describe. Not one single Manifestation of Holiness hath appeared but He was afflicted by the denials, the repudiation, and the vehement opposition of the people around Him. Thus it hath been revealed: "O the misery of men! No Messenger cometh unto them but they laugh Him to scorn."[1] Again He saith: "Each nation hath plotted darkly against their Messenger to lay violent hold on Him, and disputed with vain words to invalidate the truth."[2]"
    [1 Qur'án 36:30.]
    [2 Qur'án 40:5.]
    (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 4)

    Opposition has raised the Baha`i Faith from obscurity in many ways. The blood of martyrs has watered the tree of faith, when those who feel compelled raise their voices against the faith, the result is more and more people HEAR about the faith for the first time. As Baha`i's we owe somewhat a debt of gratitude to those opponents who bring about the growth of this faith.

    Regards,
    Scott
 
Since most of this oppression happens in Iran there are precious few western accounts of any detail. One of the most prominant is the biographical elements of a scholarly book by a recent participant who ultimately fled Iran and recanted his deeds.

The book as a whole may be bought - it is Debating Muslims. This specific reference curiously skips by the topic of oppressing Baha'is but this review mentions the chapter reviewing the issue - chapter 4. Some of that material has been excerpted online here. Please note "This autobiography includes descriptions and language that some might find offensive.
This excerpt of Debating Muslims presents Abedi's recollections of his involvement in organized opposition to the Baha'i Faith in Iran. The other section of this book that deals with the Baha'is is Fischer's 30-page essay "Social Change and the Mirrors of Yazd: Baha'is of Yazd." That essay was later reprinted in the book The Baha'i Faith and Islam, published by the Association for Baha'i Studies (Ottawa: Baha'i Studies Publications, 1990). It is not yet online. -J.W."
 
I also note bahaiawareness relies on quotes from Nuqtatul Qaf, aka Nuqtat al-Kaf .

This "book" has a pedigree, and books aught to have only an author. It seems that some element of truth might be in the text but it has certainly been altered and amended. Some scholars are trying to sift through the work to find relevant parts hoping to find meaningful information. Baha'is generally don't trust such materials - you can never be sure about what to exclude. For those familiar with the "Q" theory of the Gospels, this is a quantum leap in confusion.

Another example of being mislead I fear.
 
Greetings.

imranshaykh said:
At the outset, I find it quite interesting that while the Bahais do not permit interpretation of their own books, yet they do not hesitate to interpret the books of others to suit their purpose.

the Bahais have used the culture as a mask to hide the fact that the Bab was not a Sayyed.

I also find it quite interesting that the Bahais are now trying their best to remove the Bab from public memory.
Click to expand...

1. This is simply incorrect: every Baha'i is quite free to interpret the books! What is forbidden is one's interpretation as "THE ONLY TRUTH" and expecting others to obey it.

2. Nonsense. As others have already quoted, He most certainly was a Siyyid!

3. More nonsense! The Shrine of the Bab is the CENTRAL ORNAMENT of the Baha'i World Center as well as that of Mount Carmel. And it's an extremely significant landmark in the City of Haifa overall, please note (others' assertions, not the Baha'is'). So your accuation is simply silly.

Just the facts.

Bruce
 
Shi'ih opposition is well-entrenched and admantine, of course. Imran Shaykh is only following a well-worn rut of argument.

This is from The Baha`i Faith and its relationship to Islam, Christianity and Judaism; the Brief History by Adam Berry. The original article appeared in: International Social Science Review 2004-09-22

"Without doubt, acceptance of the Bahá'í faith by many Babis greatly displeased the ulama who had hoped to see the movement die with the Bab. This was most evident in villages which previously had large concentrations of Babis, which now had equally sizable Bahá'í populations. Combined with "effective missionary activity [which] ... broadened the network of rural Bahá'í communities," the popularity of the Bahá'í faith among rural Iranians presented a dire threat to the ulama as the Bahá'ís encroached on one of their more reliable sources of religious and political support, the villages. (13) The conversion of many urban, well-educated, and well-off Iranians also represented an encroachment on the ulama's critical urban power base, the bazaaris. (14) This diverse (though certainly not exclusive) makeup of Bahá'í converts suggests that, in addition to directly absorbing some of the clergy's most reliable political supporters, the Bahá'ís, because of their successes in converting Jews and Zoroastrians, directly challenged the primacy of the hierocracy within Iran. The Shi'i ulama likely viewed the religious minorities in Iran as prospective converts to Islam; these were effectively "their" religious minorities. The Bahá'ís' success among these groups was a feat the ulama had been unable to achieve despite enjoying several centuries of religious monopoly in Iran. Regardless of the relatively small numbers of converts involved (especially as a portion of Iran's total population), the ulama saw this development as undermining their authority and support."


You may view the article in its entirety at: http://bahai-library.com/?file=berry_bahai_islam_christianity


Regards,

Scott
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top