"I know that my Redeemer liveth"

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Virtual_Cliff

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The passage from the book of Job that inspired Handel's famous music, everyone knows it and loves it - "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

But is this really what it means? Job is not a book of prophesy in the predictive sense, and there is no context given for this apparent reference to Christ. I took a closer look at this passage, using some study tools, and came to the conclusion that it was a classic piece of translator's wishful thinking, or at least translating with hindsight. Personally I find this deeply dishonest.

I have my own translation lurking somewhere on my computer, which I will reveal later. For the time being, what does the team think? Has anyone got an alternative translation to offer?
 
Hi VC,

Interesting analysis. I'm curious to hear your translation when you are ready to reveal it. In the meanwhile, just wanted to say it's good to see you back! :)

lunamoth
 
I've been so overwhelmed by the avalanche of interest from this forum that I can't hold out any longer. Here it is, the Virtual_Cliff translation:

"When I'm dead I want these words cast in lead and written on my tombstone: I may be dead but God still lives, and in the end He will turn up in person to clear my name. He will stand over my ashes and even though I've rotted away I'll be there to see him face to face."

This passage has to be seen in the context of the preceding text and within the story of Job as a whole. Job is exclusively concerned with his good name, and that one day the truth will out, even if not in his lifetime. One of the key words here is the word for ashes, dirt, rubble, soil - which has been erroneously rendered as Earth (our planet) thus throwing the whole thing completely out of joint.

As you see there is no hint of Christ and nothing to support the physical resurrection. That's just not what Job is about.
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
I've been so overwhelmed by the avalanche of interest from this forum that I can't hold out any longer. Here it is, the Virtual_Cliff translation:

"When I'm dead I want these words cast in lead and written on my tombstone: I may be dead but God still lives, and in the end He will turn up in person to clear my name. He will stand over my ashes and even though I've rotted away I'll be there to see him face to face."

This passage has to be seen in the context of the preceding text and within the story of Job as a whole. Job is exclusively concerned with his good name, and that one day the truth will out, even if not in his lifetime. One of the key words here is the word for ashes, dirt, rubble, soil - which has been erroneously rendered as Earth (our planet) thus throwing the whole thing completely out of joint.

As you see there is no hint of Christ and nothing to support the physical resurrection. That's just not what Job is about.
Click to expand...

O that in She´ol you would conceal me,

That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,

That you would set a time limit for me and remember me

If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?

All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait

Until my relief comes....Job 14;13-14 Job had faith in the resurrection , that is why he said this to Jehovah , sheol is the common grave of mankind ,and he knew that at Gods apointed time there would be a resurrection .............

Let his flesh become fresher than in youth

Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor....Job 33;25

 
I'm convinced that Job knew of the afterlife and what it entails, but more importantly, that he had faith of what would occur. Seeing as he was a very religious man, fearing God in all things, he would make such a statement. He didn't doubt that he had a Redeemer, which is why he could bear his hardships at the moment. He knew that he would have life everlasting as well, and that a physical ressurrection was a part of that. He plainly states that he would see God in the flesh. Whether or not the Redeemer stands upon the Earth itself or on ashes in the latter day, it doesn't change the fact that Job would indeed receive a body after physical death. Anyway, you can disagree with that if you want, but it probably won't change what I believe.
 
  1. dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish
  2. dry or loose earth
  3. debris
  4. mortar
  5. ore
It means earth also

dust 93, earth 7, powder 3, rubbish 2, ashes 2, morter 2, ground 1

Job 14:19 The waters wear the stones: thou w ashes t away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.

The previous verse is an example of how "`aphar " is used in context.

 
Well, awesome. So what do YOU think the passage means? What do you personally believe? Did Job know what he was talking about? Did the translator make an error? Is the resurrection physical or do you believe in a spiritual resurrection (Christ's resurrection was physical...we are to follow him, y'know).
 
Awesome Possum said:
Well, awesome. So what do YOU think the passage means? What do you personally believe? Did Job know what he was talking about? Did the translator make an error? Is the resurrection physical or do you believe in a spiritual resurrection (Christ's resurrection was physical...we are to follow him, y'know).
Click to expand...

Interestingly, the actual word "resurrection" does not appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, but the resurrection hope is clearly expressed there. We see it, for example, in the words uttered by Job in the midst of his suffering: "O that in Sheol you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!" (Job 14:13) Similarly, at Hosea 13:14, we read: "From the hand of Sheol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Sheol?

 
    1. dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish
    2. dry or loose earth
    3. debris
    4. mortar
    5. ore
    It means earth also
    Click to expand...
Yes it means earth, soil, dirt - not The Earth, and incidentally not "in court", as rendered in some bibles. Job says, "God will stand over my ashes" - that means that he will be physically dead. And yes, he asks that when he rests in Sheol, God will remember him and clear his name - vindicate (redeem) him.


The point is, Job tells us that bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own. It is a teaching story, some say of very great antiquity. It is not a prophesy or an autobiography. We can learn a lot from it.
 
mee said:

Interestingly, the actual word "resurrection" does not appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, but the resurrection hope is clearly expressed there. We see it, for example, in the words uttered by Job in the midst of his suffering: "O that in Sheol you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!" (Job 14:13) Similarly, at Hosea 13:14, we read: "From the hand of Sheol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Sheol?
Click to expand...

So how does one know when they're interpreting scripture correctly? I've always had problems with that...people interpreting scripture, saying: "I'm pretty sure it means this." You guys...in many cases you're just relying on your own wisdom. I don't think God ever intended for that, in fact, he warned against it many a time. We should really seek to find answers from a more divine source.
 
Awesome Possum said:
So how does one know when they're interpreting scripture correctly? I've always had problems with that...people interpreting scripture, saying: "I'm pretty sure it means this." You guys...in many cases you're just relying on your own wisdom. I don't think God ever intended for that, in fact, he warned against it many a time. We should really seek to find answers from a more divine source.
Click to expand...

If by "a more divine source" you are referring to the bible then you have to interpret the bible (or someone does) and you're back where you started. BTW I'm sure God did NOT want us to eschew wisdom. He gave us this marvellous faculty to make choices and to choose the wisest course. We may take guidance from the bible and other sources but in the end it's up to us to make the call. That's what free will is all about.
 
Awesome Possum said:
So how does one know when they're interpreting scripture correctly? I've always had problems with that...people interpreting scripture, saying: "I'm pretty sure it means this." You guys...in many cases you're just relying on your own wisdom. I don't think God ever intended for that, in fact, he warned against it many a time. We should really seek to find answers from a more divine source.
Click to expand...
the bible you mean?
Jesus Christ pointed out to the Sadducees, a sect that did not believe in resurrection, that the writings of Moses in the Hebrew Scriptures, which they possessed and claimed to believe, prove there is a resurrection; Jesus reasoned that when Jehovah said He was "the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (who were actually dead), He counted those men as alive because of the resurrection that He, "the God, not of the dead, but of the living," purposed to give them. God, because of his power, "makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were." Paul includes this fact when speaking of Abraham’s faith.—Mt 22:23, 31-33; Ro 4:17

 
Virtual_Cliff said:
Yes it means earth, soil, dirt - not The Earth, and incidentally not "in court", as rendered in some bibles. Job says, "God will stand over my ashes" - that means that he will be physically dead. And yes, he asks that when he rests in Sheol, God will remember him and clear his name - vindicate (redeem) him.


The point is, Job tells us that bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own. It is a teaching story, some say of very great antiquity. It is not a prophesy or an autobiography. We can learn a lot from it.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I come away with a totally different perspective of Job. The book (in my opinion) states emphatically how much God can not stand self pity, nor those who enable the same. Self pity destroys confidence in God's ability to move in our lives. Job's lot in life (no pun intended), is to prove to the Devil that man is a noble being. Job nearly screws that up, and his friends don't help matters much. When Job finally sees the "light", and stands up like a Man (one with self dignity), God approves. God's point to the Devil is that he could not steal the dignity of man (hence reduce him to that of an animal). But it came close...

I am reminded of the movie "Dances With Wolves". The white woman taken as a child to be the daughter of the tribal chief. Her Indian name means "she stands defiant, with closed fist".

God said to the Devil "Have you considered my servant Job?" God knew what Job was made of. He pitied himself (which we all are guilty of from time to time), but then grew angry when his so called friends did the same.

We expect our friends to lift us up, not keep us low. Job realized that his only true friend was God Himself. Once he acknowledged that, God came in like a whorlwind, and fixed things faster than Greenspan can change the interest rate. But Job (to his credit), stood up and expressed himself as a Man (Human being).

As imperfect as we are, we have our dignity. We should live with it, and die with it. It defines us. Ours is a unique dignity. Yet the animals on earth can teach us a lesson or two about it.

Ever meet someone dying, who has a strong sense of self? As they take their last breath, we don't cry for their loss of life. We cry for our own loss (we've lost them). Even in death and dispare we take heart in their strength.

Deep inside we think "I want to be just like that person..."

Job was teetering on tepid and nobility...he chose to be noble...and God approved...and the devil lost.

"Have you considered my servant, Job?..."

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Interesting. I come away with a totally different perspective of Job. The book (in my opinion) states emphatically how much God can not stand self pity, nor those who enable the same. Self pity destroys confidence in God's ability to move in our lives. Job's lot in life (no pun intended), is to prove to the Devil that man is a noble being. Job nearly screws that up, and his friends don't help matters much. When Job finally sees the "light", and stands up like a Man (one with self dignity), God approves. God's point to the Devil is that he could not steal the dignity of man (hence reduce him to that of an animal). But it came close...



Deep inside we think "I want to be just like that person..."

Job was teetering on tepid and nobility...he chose to be noble...and God approved...and the devil lost.

"Have you considered my servant, Job?..."

my thoughts

v/r

Q
Click to expand...

Nice post Q. i feel the same. Job is my favorite book & possibly my favorite person. i would not want to be like Job, but learn what to expect & how to be a better person through understanding Job.
When all family & friends forsake, God will still be true to the end & that is one thing Job had to learn.

the book of Lamentations keeps calling me lately for some reason. i have only read it once, but i am thinking there may be a deep reason beyond my understaning in the purpose of lamenting, like Job did.
Not sure why, i keep feeling a connection between those two books.

then i think of the two times the bible tells us Jesus Wept & what he must have been feeling & going through.
 
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