Re: whatever,why you closed the thread?
GTv13 said:
Why you close the thread befor giving me a chance to responde I dont get it.
I closed it cause I didnt care to see your "responde" after you had,being given a chance to clarify, said that you considered the Companions(May Allaah be pleased with them) as liars. Nothing good can come from you after such statements.
OK;look you right I was wrong and I accept it I hope God forgives me for saying: maybe some Prophet companions could have lied at some point in time,maybe some told a smal lie,I dont know for sure.So what else did I say thats unislamic in your opinion.
The fact that you can even consider them possible of lying and that too regards the Messenger(pbuh) is enough for you to violate the Quranic verse i mentioned. I'm not going to discuss this further.
Prophet Muhammed was born ca.570 in Mecca,al-Bukhari was born in the year 810.
Which makes it about 200 years later when he first started collecting Prophet Muhammed Hadith,most Muslims follow his books tho.
Did you even read the links I gave you?? It contains proof of a mid-1st century AH (7th century) collection. Stop repeating the same things you were saying there and wasting time and consider what was in the link. The thing is you were obviously unaware of this collection. Didnt you read where it said "We can see that of the 138 narrations in the
Sahifa, 98 of them are faithfully witnessed in the later collections of al-Bu
khari and Muslim, both through narrations of Abu Hurrairah and witnessing narrations from other Companions"?
Don't you see how isnad (chains of narration) work and transmissions of traditions take place?
There is a Hadith that says this:
"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Muslim)
You see the problem,the Hadith contradict,not to mention the Hadith you posted is not even Prophet Muhammed's.Is not hard to make the Hadith say what people want,people have to understand that,we know that there are way more false than true Hadith.Which can not be said for the Quran.
I dont know what to say,if there is a Hadith that has been made up than this deffinetly has to be it.This has to be a joke, I dont see how anybody can prove anything with this except how lost they are.
Firslty, you didnt respond to the importance I attached to the two narrations combined relevant to the science of hadith. Secondly, the first hadith quotes the answer Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) gave to
'Abdallah bin Amr. The second one is a statement of Abu Hurairah (May Allaah be pleased with him) confirming the first hadith even though it was said by another Companion(May Allaah be pleased with him) and there you go again accusing the companions of the Prophet(pbuh) of being liars when you said "
not to mention the Hadith you posted is not even Prophet Muhammed's"
Thridly, yes, i know the hadith you just quoted and had you actual knowledge, you would know the answer to the question you are raising with that hadith. If you wanted to know about this, you could have easily asked before you accused the Companions (May Allaah be pleased with them) of being liers; I would tell you but what you said regarding the Companions of the Prophet(pbuh) was unacceptable then and it is still so. And thats why I closed the thread and I will do the same with this one if i deem it necessary. And you are already on a thin wire. Still, I will explain in reference to the hadith you quoted as it is a crucial matter but in a seperate post as this is already very long.
What on earth is wrong making lawful that what God tells us in the Quran is lawfull and making unlawfull that what God tells us in the Quran is unlawfull???
How can anybody argue with that,I dont get it.If somebody says follow the Quran,than no real Muslim can argue with that.
Ok, you have accused me of not being a Muslim without proof. I'll let it go for this time, dont say it again especially when you quoted only a part of the text of the hadith. The
complete hadith was conveying the message of not abandoning the Sunnah. Why didnt you speak of the
complete hadith? Why did you just take out the convenient part??
004.064
SHAKIR: And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
This verse which is just befor the verse 4.65 and is clearly directed at the people at the time of Prophet Muhammed.
I know what you think of it. I didnt write it for you to answer, thats why I closed the thread. it was just for you to think of. We have gone over this before, we dont agree with you.
You seem you not familiar with God's miracle in the Quran,click on the link to get the basics how the Quran is being preserved,how every letter has been numberd.If you like to know how God is protecting the Quran read about it.
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p4_01.php
The problem was with the method used in that website you gave before to explain how you know the number of rak'ah of each prayer. Goto(
http://www.submission.org/salat19.html) In one place it said that:
We learn from [2:37] that we can establish contact with God by uttering the specific Arabic words given to us by God in Sura 1,
the Key, which is a combination of sounds that unlocks the door between us and God:
This is
2:37:
Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful. [Pickthal's Translation]
Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. [Yusuf Ali's Translation]
Where does it mention Sura 1?
And then later the webpage suddenly mentioned that "The five prayers consist of 2, 4, 4, 3, and 4 units (Rak'ahs), respectively." Where did this come from? How is this known? This is what I actually wanted answered. If the answer is written somewher else, then please simple paste the material and/or give the exact link as you would obviously know better where to find it on that website. This will save us all some valuable time.
As a side thing, from what i read of the details of 'the key', i have more questions like this but i think mine and Iyad's questions are enough for now.
You know what I said and what you are saying I said, is two different things.
I cleary said I dont know for sure if anybody ever lied,but some could have,now you should keep in mind that I clearly said I dont know for sure, which I dont.
I gave you a chance to clarify and you did. You made it clear that you considered it
possible for them to lie. Since you rejected the hadith on this basis, it is equivalent to calling them liers. that was enough I believe. I dont want to hear anything else from you on this.
Never did I even ment any close Prophet Muhammed companions ever lying about him,but thats what you made it look like,this what I said: So even if the companions of Prophet Muhammed did not ever lie as Muslims,not even told any small lies ,but they could have befor they became Muslim,but now I dont know this for sure,but it is fair to say that some have if very few,after all we are humans,we are not perfect.
I didnt even quote that in my reply as far as I can tell. Anyway, did you forget what you said besides that? let me refresh your memory. This was you saying in post #46 of the
Hadith thread.
To your question, I did not ment just the companions who were at the time with Prophet Muhammed but all the people who are given the credit for the Hadith
now, here you are again making sure we understood you in post #47 that you didnt mean
just the companions but pretty much everyone else.
But anyway I'll just say this no I did not mean just the companions who were with Prophet Muhammed,but I ment the hole generation of people who brought us the Hadith and who get credits for it.
Thats exactly what you said. You cant deny it. Dont play games and waste our time! and what I said was not in response to the text you quoted. You know this. Go back to the thread. You are beginning to become a trouble maker. Either keep track of what people are saying and stop misquoting what reponse is made to which statement or I might have to close this thread as well or even ask the administrator to restrict your posting ability. Your behaviour is hampering any constructive dicussion.
And this statement you quoted (from post #46) above was made by you only as an extreme case and I countered a similar statement you made in post #47 by telling you that it is irrelevant because it would have been
before they were Muslims and it would obviously not matter to science of hadith and neither to anyone else cause these wouldnt be considered. As for after they became Muslims, again, I ask you to recall
9:100.
If you can not understand the above than forget it,think what you like is up to you.But as you can see I never said for sure anybody ever lied,not to mention never ment anybody of telling any big lie,lying about Prophet Muhammed or religion is not a small lie,so no never ment it.So next time it be nice if you dont try to read peoples thoughts if you like to know for sure what they ment,than ask.But now the reason for me talking about if anybody ever lied, was the reason what the science of the Hadith says:If anybody has ever lied at any point the Hadith from them cant be accepted as authentic.Again my point was how can anybody know if anybody ever lied,at all,cuz most people lie,at least people tell small lies.
asked and answered above.
we just cant obey Prophet Muhammed,if God ment to follow or obey his Hadith than He would have said so.
God did say so. We've gone over this before. Lets move on.
Finally, I strongly suggest you read the
Code of Conduct and watch what you say. If you feel that you must continue like this, then I strongly suggest you go to the
Comparative Studies board where they might entertain you.
