the prophet elijah

[Bandit]

In my faith, ABdu'l Baha explains this very question:

For example, there was a flower last year, and this year there is also a flower; I say the flower of last year has returned. Now, I do not mean that same flower in its exact individuality has come back; but as this flower has the same qualities as that of last year -- as it has the same perfume, delicacy, color and form -- I say the flower of last year has returned, and this flower is the former flower. When spring comes, we say last year's spring has come back because all that was found in last year's spring exists in this spring. That is why Christ said, "You will see all that happened in the days of the former Prophets."
[1 I.e., the individuality.]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 133)

yah but it is not the same thing because most of these religions who believe in strict reincarnation think that is all we ever do is just keep coming back over & over again, like paper being recycled.
i personally do not think i am reincarnated & i dont think i will be coming back to earth through the womb of woman when i die.
once around will be enough thank you.

 

[Bandit]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,


I do think its a nice idea because it seems easy but the path IS narrow.


FS

hey Faithful, are you saying you dont want to come back to earth & do it all over again?
i mean just think, you could sit at these computers for hours all over again.
i dont think i am coming back after i die either.

i had one last brainstorm from the other thread. we could all sit at a big table. put the tarot card readers on one side & the bible readers on the other. every 50 verses equals one card.
we read the passage, they read their card. we start praying & keep reading.
you know, like take turns.
do you think they would be up to it?

i guess some people just dont understand that Christians really really really REALLY REALLY believe in the bible & Jesus Christ.

 

[Faithfulservant]

hey Faithful, are you saying you dont want to come back to earth & do it all over again?
i mean just think, you could sit at these computers for hours all over again.
i dont think i am coming back after i die either.

i had one last brainstorm from the other thread. we could all sit at a big table. put the tarot card readers on one side & the bible readers on the other. every 50 verses equals one card.
we read the passage, they read their card. we start praying & keep reading.
you know, like take turns.
do you think they would be up to it?

i guess some people just dont understand that Christians really really really REALLY REALLY believe in the bible & Jesus Christ.

lol Bandit no... once is enough for me thanks. I try to limit my torment to small doses.. living life over and over again would be akin to hell. I just live for the day that this life is over and I can be where my soul yearns to be. That may seem strange to ppl that embrace this life or world.. but to me its freakin torture.

Interesting idea btw.. I dont think it would be fair tbh... a bit one-sided maybe?

 

[Bandit]

lol Bandit no... once is enough for me thanks. I try to limit my torment to small doses.. living life over and over again would be akin to hell. I just live for the day that this life is over and I can be where my soul yearns to be. That may seem strange to ppl that embrace this life or world.. but to me its freakin torture.

Interesting idea btw.. I dont think it would be fair tbh... a bit one-sided maybe?

freakin torture Amen.

you are right. it may not be fair. but hey i guess we will have to see which thumps harder on its own... the bible or the cards.
i guess what i would be looking to see is what the bible reads about the cards & what the cards read about the bible. i know it is stupid but might make for good saturday night live.

i am tossing my poker chips on the bible.

 

[wil]

Interesting as your view is, ... reincarnation ... not biblically supported. We are appointed one time to die not hundreds as we go through many lives.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
It also takes away the message of Salvation.. what point would salvation be if all you had to do was die and do it all over again because you didnt accept the gift the first time.
I do think its a nice idea because it seems easy but the path IS narrow. ..Thank you for sharing your ideas Taijasi

Seems reincarnation was popular talk amongst those at the time of Jesus and of the early Christians...

Why would one ask if someone was Peter or Elijah, or even pose, who do they say I am?? Why would one ask Jesus if the child born afflicted was due to his sins or that of his father?

There was plenty of opportunity in both those instances and more to say that reincarnation did not exist. Instead they accepted the question as normal...perfectly logical that they would think I was reincarnated...or that the child had sins from past lives...

Do we truly think a loviing forgiving father (we are talking unconditional love, love your enemy love, love your neighbor as yourself love, forgive countless times forgiving..)that this father would expect us to have the capacity to earn passage to the next realm in only one trip on this one? And if we failed send us down the stairs?

To tie with another thread, could be those church fathers that put the books together specifically took books that spoke the least to reincarnation...as that was the consensus of the council....

 

[Quahom1]

Seems reincarnation was popular talk amongst those at the time of Jesus and of the early Christians...

Why would one ask if someone was Peter or Elijah, or even pose, who do they say I am?? Why would one ask Jesus if the child born afflicted was due to his sins or that of his father?

There was plenty of opportunity in both those instances and more to say that reincarnation did not exist. Instead they accepted the question as normal...perfectly logical that they would think I was reincarnated...or that the child had sins from past lives...

Do we truly think a loviing forgiving father (we are talking unconditional love, love your enemy love, love your neighbor as yourself love, forgive countless times forgiving..)that this father would expect us to have the capacity to earn passage to the next realm in only one trip on this one? And if we failed send us down the stairs?

To tie with another thread, could be those church fathers that put the books together specifically took books that spoke the least to reincarnation...as that was the consensus of the council....

Perhaps because Elijah never died...

 

[Faithfulservant]

Perhaps because Elijah never died...

Exactly...

2Kings 2:11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


Same with Moses...


Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"


We also have Enoch...

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The fun part is the amount of unanswered questions that were left with each person..

 

[wil]

But Jesus walked up and asked who the others say he is...

And the reply was Elijah, John, Jerimiah... So they thought he was Elijah walking on earth again, or another duel incarnation of John the Baptist, or Jeremiah?

Again since Jesus simply asked...who do you think I am.. leaving it entirely open for discussion..and not denying the possiblity of the others...even the answer you are the Christ doesn't take away the possiblity that he is reincarnated from someone else..

and there were some other questions...

 

[Popeyesays]

yah but it is not the same thing because most of these religions who believe in strict reincarnation think that is all we ever do is just keep coming back over & over again, like paper being recycled.
i personally do not think i am reincarnated & i dont think i will be coming back to earth through the womb of woman when i die.
once around will be enough thank you.

Satistically I can't believe in reincarnation. There are more people alive today than have lived and died already. Where is the room for returns when facing that mathematical truth?

yet the flower that blooms one year and dies, and can be seen to bloom again is a metaphor for the return of the same flower, even though they are different generations.This means they are separate entities and a metaphorical return is not a literal return.

I was at a party once when two folks of the Hubbard persuasion were wondering why they felt they had met before. After an hour long discussion of their past lives they decided that one of them had lived as Alexander the Great and the other was his horse Bucephalus.

I don't believe in the transmigration of souls either.

Which brings up another evidence against reincarnation; how come everybody was a king or great warrior, and no one is ever the return of the guy who mucked out the stables?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quahom1]

But Jesus walked up and asked who the others say he is...

And the reply was Elijah, John, Jerimiah... So they thought he was Elijah walking on earth again, or another duel incarnation of John the Baptist, or Jeremiah?

Again since Jesus simply asked...who do you think I am.. leaving it entirely open for discussion..and not denying the possiblity of the others...even the answer you are the Christ doesn't take away the possiblity that he is reincarnated from someone else..

and there were some other questions...

Jesus never left anything open for discussion. You refuse to read the rest of the story. Not wise.

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

Which brings up another evidence against reincarnation; how come everybody was a king or great warrior, and no one is ever the return of the guy who mucked out the stables?

Regards,
Scott

i stand neutral with it. i dont see it as an absolute doctrine either way because i cant see for sure where the scriptures make it perfectly clear all the way through. i know some who feel they were here before & were just ordinary people & i do my best to try to understand that particular individual because i dont like to discredit another persons experience, especially if i can learn something from them, and i know it does not feel good when my experiences are discredited.

some people really truly feel they were here before & some people make it seem like they are off in la la land, like you say a great king with imagination or whatever.

i think it is one of those things better not to make an issue. at the same time the ones who tell us we just recycle forever & we make these choices on our own to come back & create ourselves, or turn into cows, outwits God & that is when i have think differently.

i think a lot of people do use reincarnation to try & bypass God & judgment, but we can't.
i just see it as a possiblity for some, if God has a purpose for doing that & God is the one who will do it, not us.
this of course my simple opinion.

thanks for the chat, Scott

 

[Arizona]

What about incarnanation as opposed to reincarnation? I think the bible does support Elisha? carnating agian. Another point that is made a lot is that it is appointed for man once to live and then the judgement. What if this simply means that when we die in the physical we are examined for that life. Another verse that is brought up is as a tree falleth so shall it lay. It may be that this means that once we die in the physical our state and behaviors as such dont change into something that we didnt accomplish while alive. No magic wand for example. It may mean that our lives are examined and what we learned or received in life pertaining to our hearts doesnt change without our participation. If we die in the physical with a bitter heart and attitude so shall it be when we are examined and that doesnt change without our participation and choices to desire to be more loving and caring. But does this mean that we are not incarnated again. Does receiving Jesus for example mean that we say we believe He is the Son of God or does it mean that we receive His nature? What if receiving Jesus means we receive His nature by participating in the desire to love one another. What if anyone who does fulfill the commandment of love God with all your heart and love your brother as yourself does receive Him, or, anyone who receives love does receive Him. How many people then have received Him because they chose love whether they know biblical doctrin or not or had the bible available or any book for that matter or could read english. Can not reading the bible or having the bible prevent the Word of God or His voice in our hearts. His living speaking spirit that was poured out on all flesh is His Word that is made flesh in us. His voice.

But to reiterate is there a difference between reincarnation and incarnation?

 

[Bandit]

But to reiterate is there a difference between reincarnation and incarnation?

i think we receive both- love & the Son of God when we believe & receive Jesus.

elisha & elijah, the transfiguration is all confusing for me, so i dont know.
i dont see any difference in incarnate or reincarnate. the bible does not use either one that i know of. or does it?
i just seems like 'in' is more like the first time & 're' just shows it happened before or happened again.

my aunt has a belief that the antichrist will be the literal devil who incarnates into a man, the same way some believe God incarnates into a man.
fortunately i go to a church where people are allowed to believe what they see by researching & studying for themselves. so it is interesting for sure when you talk to them because the answer often comes back as multiple choice.


nice post Arizona, on receiving Jesus, receiving love & receiving the love of Jesus.

 

[Arizona]

Thanks Bandid. Im not really all that knowledgable about the two but I dont have a problem with incarnation. I had a mind changing experience once about pre-existance and so I dont think being incarnated on more than one occation is a far strech. I think the difference between reincarnation and incarnation is that incarnation does not involve being something else or something other than what we have participated in. I think reincarnations is when the individual becomes soomething different in nature for example. For example, if I were to incarnate again I would still be me but with reincarnation I think it means I could come back and be someone or something else not already a part of my identity or person that I have not already grown and participated in. This means physically also. For example I could come back as a cow or some other animal. Incarnation just means that we come back as we are. Not that I am an expert or anything.

 

[Bandit]

Thanks Bandid. Im not really all that knowledgable about the two but I dont have a problem with incarnation. I had a mind changing experience once about pre-existance and so I dont think being incarnated on more than one occation is a far strech. I think the difference between reincarnation and incarnation is that incarnation does not involve being something else or something other than what we have participated in. I think reincarnations is when the individual becomes soomething different in nature for example. For example, if I were to incarnate again I would still be me but with reincarnation I think it means I could come back and be someone or something else not already a part of my identity or person that I have not already grown and participated in. This means physically also. For example I could come back as a cow or some other animal. Incarnation just means that we come back as we are. Not that I am an expert or anything.

you used to be a cow? (teasing)

i think you will always be you no matter what.

i see what you are saying but when people start talking cows & butterflies that goes over the edge for me for what the scriptures are trying to say. i just dont think that is what God does because people are different than all the rest of the creation.
i am not an expert either but what if this time for us is the only time for us & we go back to God? see that is the thing about it if we are not careful. we end up with all these thoughts & that is why i dont think i am reincarnated or that i will ever be coming back & i dont want to come back. i want to be sure in this life & what i long for is the same as Faithfulservant, is to live forever with the Lord in His eternal rest.

can anyone explain exactly what happened at the transfiguration with Moses & Jesus? everytime this comes up I expect to fully understand it, but i always go away still wondering.

 

[Arizona]

Hi Bandit,

Can you explain to me what you know about the Transfiguration? What you have been shown and what is typically taught about it.

Thanks !

 

[Bandit]

Hi Bandit,

Can you explain to me what you know about the Transfiguration? What you have been shown and what is typically taught about it.

Thanks !

honestly, i dont understand it at all. vision, merging of spirits, it seems to me like God lifted the vail from their eyes & let them see the spirit of Jesus beyond the flesh...the array of Gods glory & power. i dont know.
then i consider how eternal life & immortality was never understood in those days, the way wee see it today with the scriptures & the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, because the OT does not say a lot about eternal life.
i read it, i hear people talk about it but there is always something missing. one thing for sure- it was real.
it has been about a year since we talked about that here so maybe some others can explain what they see.

then i consider who was allowed to see it? peter, james & john.
if anyone wants to put up that passage for discussion again, that would be cool.

 

[Quahom1]

It is interesting to note, that once again there is a conflict here concerning a supposedly dead person being both in the etheral world and alive here on earth at the same time.


How could Elijah be with Moses, and yet John the Baptist be here on earth (still alive at the time), in the vision of transfiguration the author (in this case Matthew) writes about?
John the Baptist stated emphatically that he was not Elijah. Amnesia?

Second, if John the Baptist were "Elijah", then he would know Jesus personally, and would not have asked from his prison cell, if Jesus was the one to come (the promised one). He would have had no doubt. All he knew was that Jesus was his cousin, and a prophet, and preacher.

Third, John would not have feared death (since he would know the place he was going back to in the after life). But he did fear death.

Finally, we are told that every man is appointed to die once. So Reincarnation can go out the window. Unless there are a bunch of immortals out there in the world in new bodies...


Things that make you go Hmmmm...

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

It is interesting to note, that once again there is a conflict here concerning a supposedly dead person being both in the etheral world and alive here on earth at the same time.


How could Elijah be with Moses, and yet John the Baptist be here on earth (still alive at the time), in the vision of transfiguration the author (in this case Matthew) writes about?
John the Baptist stated emphatically that he was not Elijah. Amnesia?

Second, if John the Baptist were "Elijah", then he would know Jesus personally, and would not have asked from his prison cell, if Jesus was the one to come (the promised one). He would have had no doubt. All he knew was that Jesus was his cousin, and a prophet, and preacher.

Third, John would not have feared death (since he would know the place he was going back to in the after life). But he did fear death.

Finally, we are told that every man is appointed to die once. So Reincarnation can go out the window. Unless there are a bunch of immortals out there in the world in new bodies...


Things that make you go Hmmmm...

v/r

Q

as far as the conflict here, I agree there is one, or there appears to be one & that is why it never made sense to me. if you look at what JTB says, then see what they say in Matt 17, it seems Jesus is referencing himself with JTB & drawing a parallel with Elijah so they would know that he was going to be put to death also. yet Jesus is saying Elijah shall first come & restore all things then he says Elijah has already come. JTB was beheaded in Matt 14.
but the writer concludes the disciples understood it to be JTB.

I think JTB knew Jesus is the Son of God & i think that happened at Jordan, but JTB was also filled with Holy Ghost from birth & this is prior to the Holy Ghost being poured out at Pentecost which i feel he needed in order to recognise Jesus is the Messiah... yet like you say being in prison & not being able to see what was going on, he had doubt, like we all do at times, because he was human & yes he did say he was not Elijah.

i dont think there is a conflict in the scriptures, rather a conflict in understanding.

Matt. 17
17:10And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
17:11And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Here are the cross references in the gospels, but not limited to just these passages alone.

Mark 9:2-13
Luke 9:28-36

 

[Thomas]

This has strayed a bit - but a couple of points:

Transfiguration - Moses and Eliah represent the Letter and the Spirit, the Law and the Prophets, Transcendance and Immanence, Apophatic and Kataphatic experience ...

Standing alongside Christ, who is their Logos and Principle, signifies (among other things) the resolution of all duality in Trinity (Unity).

Again, it is the fulfillment of the Law and Prophecy in Christ.

Reincarnation - the notion of reincarnation does not and can not 'fit' in any Judeo/Christian/Moslem anthropomorphism - it just confounds itself in too many contradictions - any attempt to introduce the subject is invariably a popular borrowing from the Asiatic traditions in which the 'person' - be it man or God - is itself without any substantial reality.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam hinge on the notion of a Personal God, and a personal relationship between the two. Reincarnation renders all of this a nonsense, unless 'the person' is by nature schizophrenic.

To fully understand this requires a knowledge of 'being' founded on Scripture and developed through theology - such as the notion and meaning of 'hypostasis', etc.

Thomas