Buddhist Mindfulness vs Taoist Flow

[Netti-Netti]

Hello again SG,

In the Tao Te Ching for one. Regarding flow: "It takes no effort and requires no understanding." ...In other words, our actions interfere with it.

There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
​

~the Satipatthana Sutta

The term ardent suggests that there is exertion. That seems different from the concept of Flow = automaticity + effortlessness.

Also, the emphasis on remaining alert and mindful seems different from the notion that there is no need for an effort to be directed toward understanding. The Sutta is telling us about the importance of an ongoing and persistent mental effort.

 

[seattlegal]

Hello again SG,

There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
​

~the Satipatthana Sutta

The term ardent suggests that there is exertion. That seems different from the concept of Flow = automaticity + effortlessness.

Also, the emphasis on remaining alert and mindful seems different from the notion that there is no need for an effort to be directed toward understanding. The Sutta is telling us about the importance of an ongoing and persistent mental effort.

Doesn't ardent mean naturally enthusiastic? (Fire-in-the-belly sort of thing?) Isn't that more spontaneous than contrived?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Doesn't ardent mean naturally enthusiastic? (Fire-in-the-belly sort of thing?) Isn't that more spontaneous than contrived?

Flow seem like a property of the Tao. Whereas Mindfulness is a kind of Buddhist practice. If Flow is the quality of practice, it would seem rather passive - tending toward quiet and non-action. Tibetan Buddhism being concerned with transformation, seems more active and goal-directed.

Most of the practicing Taoists I have known do not operate from the idea of escaping suffering or dukka but have talked to me about restoring balance and harmony. Perhaps when it is all said and done it is all the same.

But the approach may be very different. When people talk about restoring balance and harmony, it sometimes has a quality of avoiding specifics. Buddhism is very clear and very specific about what we can work on: ignorance and desire.

 

[seattlegal]

Flow seem like a property of the Tao. Whereas Mindfulness is a kind of Buddhist practice.



But the approach may be very different. When people talk about restoring balance and harmony, it sometimes has a quality of avoiding specifics. Buddhism is very clear and very specific about what we can work on: ignorance and desire.

Match colors:
Tao Te Ching 1 (Legge translation)

1

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.
​

Different expressions of the same thing, imo.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Match colors:
Tao Te Ching 1 (Legge translation)

1

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.


(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.
​

Different expressions of the same thing, imo.

To my way of thinking the concept of flow suggests that the person is carried away by some universal process. If that's how it is, why should anyone apply themselves to mental discipline?

 

[seattlegal]

To my way of thinking the concept of flow suggests that the person is carried away by some universal process. If that's how it is, why should anyone apply themselves to mental discipline?

To keep ourselves from interfering with/negating our natural means of harmony and balance:

"Therefore it is said, 'In representing the Dao of Heaven, one uses the terms Yin and Yang, and in representing the Dao of Earth, one uses the terms Soft and Hard, while in representing the Dao of Man, one uses the terms Love and Righteousness.'"
--Zhou Dunyi
​

 

[Netti-Netti]

To keep ourselves from interfering with/negating with our natural means of harmony and balance:

"Therefore it is said, 'In representing the Dao of Heaven, one uses the terms Yin and Yang, and in representing the Dao of Earth, one uses the terms Soft and Hard, while in representing the Dao of Man, one uses the terms Love and Righteousness.'"
--Zhou Dunyi​

Intertial tendency - the tendency toward inaction - could be considered a natural state of affairs. Yet Buddhists try actively to counteract it because it keeps us from making progress.

 

[seattlegal]

Intertial tendency - the tendency toward inaction - could be considered a natural state of affairs. Yet Buddhists try actively to counteract it because it keeps us from making progress.

Is zazen active? Does zazen counteract progress?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Is zazen active? Does zazen counteract progress?

Neuroimaging studies suggests that the psychophysiology of meditation involves higher levels of activation in some areas of the brain.

Btw, what do we make of the heart rhythm irregularities among Zen practitioners?
Zazen and Cardiac Variability -- Lehrer et al. 61 (6): 812 -- Psychosomatic Medicine

I wanted to add: there is more than one kind of meditation. Tai Chi is obviously more active than sitting.

 

[seattlegal]

Neuroimaging studies suggests that the psychophysiology of meditation involves higher levels of activation in some areas of the brain.

Btw, what do we make of the heart rhythm irregularities among Zen practitioners?
Zazen and Cardiac Variability -- Lehrer et al. 61 (6): 812 -- Psychosomatic Medicine

Science has long known that heart rate is tied to breathing. What's your point?

(To go into the Taoist side of this, you might want to check out The Secret of the Golden Flower regarding this.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

Is zazen active?

Are you saying it's not active?

 

[seattlegal]

Are you saying it's not active?

Inactive does not equal ineffective.

Or, as the Taoists would say, "overcome the hard with the soft."

 

[Netti-Netti]

Inactive does not equal ineffective.

I saw something about reduced EEG. Not sure if that was for Soto or Rinzai Zen.

 

[seattlegal]

I saw something about reduced EEG. Not sure if that was for Soto or Rinzai Zen.

Science has long known that heart rate is tied to breathing. What's your point?

(To go into the Taoist side of this, you might want to check out The Secret of the Golden Flower regarding this.)

from Secret of the Golden Flower

Master Lu Tzu said: The decision must be carried out with a whole heart, and, the result no sought for; the result will come of itself. In the first period of release there are chiefly two mistakes: laziness and distraction. But that can be remedied; the heart must not enter into the breathing too completely. Breathing comes from the heart. What comes out of the heart is breath. When the heart stirs, there develops breath-power. Breath-power is originally transformed activity of the heart. When our hearts go very fast they imperceptibly pass into fantasies which are always accompanied by the drawing of a breath, because this inner and outer breathing hangs together like tone and echo. Daily we draw innumerable breaths and have an equal number of fantasy-representations. And thus the clarity of the spirit is depleted just as wood dries out and ashes die.

Should a man have no images in his mind? One cannot be without images. Should one not breathe? One cannot do without breathing. The best way is to make a cure out of the illness. Since heart and breath are mutually dependent, the circulation of the Light must be united with the rhythm of breathing. For this, Light of the ear is above all necessary. There is a Light of the eye and a Light of the ear. The Light of the eye is the united Light of the sun and moon outside. The Light of the ear is the united seed of sun and moon within. The seed is also the Light in crystallized form. Both have the same origin and are different only in name. Therefore, understanding (ear) and clarity (eye) are one and the same effective Light.

In sitting down, after dropping the lids, one establishes a plumb-line with the eyes and shifts the Light downward. But if the transposition downward is not successful, then the heart is directed toward listening to the breathing. One should not be able to hear with the ear the outgoing and inhaling of the breath. What one hears is that it has no tone. As soon as it has tone, the breathing is rough and superficial, and does not penetrate into what is fine. Then the heart must be made quite light and insignificant. The more it is released, the less important it becomes; the less important, the quieter. All at once it becomes so quiet that it stops. Then the true breathing is manifested and the form of the heart can be made conscious. When the heart is light, the breathing is light, for every movement of the heart brings about breathing power. If breathing is light, the heart is light, for every movement of the breath affects the heart. In order to steady the heart, one begins by cultivating the breathing power. The heart cannot be influenced directly. Therefore the breathing power is used as a handle, and this is what is called protecting the collected breathing power.

​

 

[Netti-Netti]

What does Taoism tell us about how to use meditation as a means of spiritual inquiry?

 

[seattlegal]

What does Taoism tell us about how to use meditation as a means of spiritual inquiry?

Muddy water--let sit--becomes clear:

Tao Te Ching 15
15

The skilful masters (of the Tao) in old times, with a subtle
and exquisite penetration, comprehended its mysteries, and were deep
(also) so as to elude men's knowledge. As they were thus beyond men's
knowledge, I will make an effort to describe of what sort they
appeared to be.

Shrinking looked they like those who wade through a stream in
winter; irresolute like those who are afraid of all around them; grave
like a guest (in awe of his host); evanescent like ice that is melting
away; unpretentious like wood that has not been fashioned into
anything; vacant like a valley, and dull like muddy water.

Who can (make) the muddy water (clear)? Let it be still, and it
will gradually become clear. Who can secure the condition of rest?
Let movement go on, and the condition of rest will gradually arise.

They who preserve this method of the Tao do not wish to be full (of
themselves). It is through their not being full of themselves that
they can afford to seem worn and not appear new and complete.

​

(Different language than what you might be used to.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

(different language than what you might be used to.)

..... ......

 

[Netti-Netti]

Inactive does not equal ineffective.

Or, as the Taoists would say, "overcome the hard with the soft."

I see what you mean, but it would depend on context. In situations where flight or fight are called for as a protective measure, being inactive probably wouldn't be helpful.

Anyhoo...

There was an MRI study of experienced practitioners. Meditation produced activation of some part of the brain and reduce activity in others. Specifically, it leads to hightened attention combined with a deactivation of the part of the brain that, according to the authors, is associated with the will.

Some researchers suggest that this part of the brain has multiple functions, such that the deactivation may mean a leveling out of affect and motivation. This "unmuddying/stilling/clearing" effect would be consistent with the overall impression is that the person becomes more passive/receptive during meditation.

Link for the MRI study: http://www.zenmanagement.eu/hersenscan.pdf

 

[seattlegal]

I see what you mean, but it would depend on context. In situations where flight or fight are called for as a protective measure, being inactive probably wouldn't be helpful.

Anyhoo...

There was an MRI study of experienced practitioners. Meditation produced activation of some part of the brain and reduce activity in others. Specifically, it leads to hightened attention combined with a deactivation of the part of the brain that, according to the authors, is associated with the will.

Some researchers suggest that this part of the brain has multiple functions, such that the deactivation may mean a leveling out of affect and motivation. This "unmuddying/stilling/clearing" effect would be consistent with the overall impression is that the person becomes more passive/receptive during meditation.

Link for the MRI study: http://www.zenmanagement.eu/hersenscan.pdf

Interesting. I'm not surprised at their conclusions.

I especially liked the two quotes they added at the very end of the study: (If you try to copy and paste them, they come out as some sort of strange unicode characters, so I'll have to transcribe them.)

You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
-Douglas Adams

Where is the knowledge that is lost in information?
Where is the wisdom that is lost in knowledge?
-T. S. Eliot​

 

[TheKhan]

In return for some breathing insights here, I would like to document these quotes. Maybe you guys can understand what is written here more, I`m still working on it.

English page referenced by Thomas, on my favorite martial art.
Correctly Transmitted Kashima-Shinry

Martial breathing constitutes a shift from uncontrolled respiration to controlled deep abdominal breathing in which the movement of the abdominal muscle increases greatly in its intensity. Outward expansion of the abdominal muscle is accompanied by pressing the diaphragm downward, which induces forceful inhalations so that the lung capacity expands as much as 160% greater than normal. As a result of this training, the biological reaction of the TCA Cycle within the somatic cells is activated, and as the cells become more demanding of oxygen they increase the rate at which they produce greater amounts of ATP. As a result, the amount of biochemical energy which is available for use by life functions will suddenly increase. When this energy is used in muscular exertion, one appears to have acquired almost superhuman power.

when one detects the ki emitted by an expert or master — it is essential to use the Metsuke no Koto taught in the gokuiden (the highest level of initiation) of Kashima-Shinryû. The gokuiden’s Metsuke no Koto is performed as follows. As one assumes a posture (kamae) for the encounter, first fully open the eyes and focus one’s gaze on the opponent’s forehead at the spot that Buddhists identify as the location of the third eye (or the corresponding location of a reptile’s parietal eye: i.e., photoreceptive organ). Then, as one completely enters into the posture, close the eyes half way. One’s line of sight must remain focused on the “third eye,” but at the same time one’s awareness long that line of sight should rest on the opponent’s feet. When one enters into this kind of metsuke (eye placement) one can observe how movements of the mind, especially changes in combative spirit, generate fluctuations in the bio-energy or aura (reiki in Japanese) emitted by the opponent and, thus, one discerns comprehensively all actions across the opponent’s entire body. The key gist of the oral initiation regarding this comprehensive mode of observation says: “Do not regard the opponent casually, but allow your vision to move cyclically of its own accord (not willfully) so that you can correctly discern the opponent’s motions.” This process of cyclical observation can be liked to they way that we view motion picture films, which consist of a series of perfectly focused images projected sequentially onto a screen.
Recently published leading scientific research analyzes the way that our vision performs involuntary cyclical movements (Martinez-Conde and Macknik, August 2007). According to this article, involuntary cyclical eye movements constitute what in scientific parlance is called “fixational eye movement.” In other words, even when the gaze fixates on the same spot, the eyes engage constantly in fixational eye movements in which the eyeballs flick in rapid succession momentarily from one detail to the next. The fixational eye movements which produce the largest range of eye motion are known as microsaccades. The foremost significance of these microsaccades lies in the fact that they can reveal anticipations and subliminal strategic thoughts. This research demonstrates that even when one concentrates ones vision on a single spot of focus, these fixational eye movements do not stop, but draw in the maximum range of the peripheral vision.

Some systems in this martial art, IMO is not exactly foreign to Tao.


TK