Who is Vajrasattva?

[rdwillia]

Hello Vaj,

i, too, am a student and am by no means a teacher! if anything i say makes sense to you, it is due to your own good karma ripening!

Thank you for explaining so clearly what I struggle to make barely intellegeble. Someone's karma would have to be really bad to not understand that clarity.

Hello Phyllis,

question #3: I believe that, from what I've read between the two of you, one can have the "empowerment" without the Vow of Bodhisattva, but can the reverse be true; i.e. you can take the Vow of Bodhisattva without going through the "empowerment"?

well... in short, yes, though it isn't often the situation since this process of formally taking the Bodhisattva Vow is, in and of itself, an empowerment. not of the same sort as one of the Tantric empowerments, to be sure, but an empowerment nonetheless.

This is very true. In my case some very special circumstances came together to allow me to complete both of them in one day. Especially in seeing that in some cases an empowerment can last several days ending with another multi-day retreat. This was an all day event for me.

However, the Vajrasattva empowerment, being a purification practice, blends really nicely with the Bodhisattva vows. And that way, if you blow one of the secondary downfalls you know how to purify your non-virtuous actions. The other reason the Bodhisattva vows were granted was that several of us are from out of town and don't get a chance to make it to the center very often. The resident teacher took pity on us out-of-towners and granted us the vows.

As for everything else, Vajradhara sufficiently captured anything I would have said, and more.

Thank you both!

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by rdwillia
And that way, if you blow one of the secondary downfalls you know how to purify your non-virtuous actions.

What if one "blows" one of the primary downfalls? Does said person have to start from square one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[rdwillia]

Hello Phyllis,

What if one "blows" one of the primary downfalls? Does said person have to start from square one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Ha! First off, it is pretty difficult for one, striving sincerely, to actually breat the vows. In order to do so, not only must you incure one of the primary downfalls but it's generally only a downfall if A) you don't regard the action as wrong, B) you don't wish to abstain from the action in the future, C) you rejoice in the action, and D) you have no sense of shame or concideration for others. If one were to incur one (or more) of the primary downfalls, which included at least one of the four factors above, there is usually a (somewhat) formal confession and one can usually retake the vows.

All of this is relative to my tradition and I'm not quite sure if it differs from tradition to tradition. The thing is, with wanting to become a bodhisattva, it is actually quite difficult to break the vows because ideally, everything you do is done with a bodhichitta (spontaneous desire to become enlightened for the sake of all sentient beings) motivation.

I hope that helps. Take care,

~rdwillia

 

[Vajradhara]

What if one "blows" one of the primary downfalls? Does said person have to start from square one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Namaste Phyllis,

to amplify on what Rdwillia has said...

it may help to think of the Bodhisattva process as a process of ritual initiation and purification. as such, if one breaks one of the precepts, one undergoes a process of ritual re-purification to rectify the situation.

of course, i should say that both rdwillia and i practice the Varjayana as found in Tibet, as a consequence, other Vajrayana lineages may have a different understanding of some of this subject matter. of course, as an adherent, that isn't much of a concern for me... but it may be such for a more academic oriented approach

the ramifications for breaching a Bodhisattva precept is, in my school, rather dire.. as a consequence, in his seminal text, Bodhichayavaratara (The Way of the Bodhisattva) Shantideva relates that if one is not confident they can keep the precepts, it is better not to take them, than to take them and break them.... especially if that breach is intentional.

a lot of Buddhist moral and ethical concern is focused towards the intentions which underly our actions.

metta,

~v

 

[rdwillia]

Thanks for the amplification Vaj,

I am very familiar with Shantideva's Guide and have read several commentaries. This is one of those areas that can be interpreted very differently by different schools. Different schools can all have drastically different views on different translations. Though it sounds like our schools interpret it similarly. Before you take the vows, you make sure you can keep them, there are actually very few people breaking the vows as this, as we have both previously mentioned, involves a negative intention. I personally feel that it would actually be quite difficult to break the root downfalls if you have a pure intention to keep the vows in the first place.

However the secondary downfalls, in my school, aren't quite as serious if broken. Of course one should have the same pure intention to uphold them but they are made up of more seemingly (emphasis on 'seemingly') mundane rules, such as not indulging in frivolity. I sincerely intend to not indulge in frivolity but catch myself in the midst of frivolous actions all the time! So after some corporal punishment (this is of my own accord, it's not required or recommended by most schools ) I do a purification practice (usually Vajrasattva but also 35 confession Buddhas) and try really hard not to be frivolous, accept invitations and gifts, etc, etc. It's the little things that are sometimes difficult to remember until after you've already kinda sorta incurred a secondary downfall.

Although it should also be said that many of the vows virtually cancel each other out so that you arrive at the middle path, such as; neglecting to train in mental stabilization and becoming preoccupied with the taste of mental stabilization. Shantideva also said that a true Bodhisattva can do no wrong now can they break the vows because everything the Bodhisattva does is done with a very pure bodhichitta motivation in order to help others and everything is taken in consideration with the situation. You can't decline an invitation... out of laziness, you shouldn't acquire wealth or fame... through wrong livelihood, etc.

Thanks again.

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by Vajradhara
when we talk about Buddhism, there are several different ways we can go about it.. we can talk about schools, like Zen or T'ien T'ai, or we can talk about the overall Vehicles, like Hinyana or Mahayana and we can also talk about the individual vehicles, the Yanas, which a being practices.

Next question: What are some of the differences between schools/Vehicles? I'm somewhat familiar with Zen (zazen), but what is T'ien T'ai? What are some of the differences between Hinyana, Mahayana and the third Vehicle (which I can't recall the name of offhand)?

Sorry.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

RDwillia, thank you for the explanation and through overview (sorry i didn't post sooner, i'm going to try to change my approach to posts i concur with

Next question: What are some of the differences between schools/Vehicles? I'm somewhat familiar with Zen (zazen), but what is T'ien T'ai? What are some of the differences between Hinyana, Mahayana and the third Vehicle (which I can't recall the name of offhand)?

Sorry.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Hi Phyllis,

for ease of our discussion, we can consider that Buddha Dharma has had, what we term, Three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma. the "three" turnings correspond to the three Vehicles of Buddhism.

basically, we have three sorts of views, which we call Vehicles.

a Vehicle, in our terms, is a systematic method of practice which most closely corresponds to the capacities of the being.

thus, we have three main systems:

Hinyana (Lesser Vehicle)
Mahayana (Greater Vehicle)
Vajrayana (Diamond Vehicle)

within each of these Vehicles, are multiple "yanas" or schools, with the exception of Hinyana. the historical Hinyana had, at one point, 17 different schools... today, there is one left, called Theraveda. as a consequence, one often finds the term Hinyana to be equilivant to Theraveda, and vice versa. in many bits of literature the whole things is simply referred to as Theravedan Buddhism.

to my mind, this is a bit of a misnomer since it ignores the existence of the other schools in an historical context.

i should explain that the designations of 'lesser' 'greater' and 'diamond' are not meant in a hierarchial way or as a way of denigrating another path, though there is certainly history that this was how some beings used the term.

all Buddhist Vehicles and yanas agree on the basics of Buddhism, namely the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the 5 Precepts, the 6 Paramitas and so forth.

one area, however, where one can see differences in the approaches is in the aspiration aspect. for instance, though the Bodhisattva ideal exists within the Theravedan school, it is not the main point of the practice. the main point, if you will, is the Arhant. an Arhant is a being which is working towards individual liberation.

in the Mahayana view, once a being is an Arhant and enters meditive absorption, they are roused from this state by a Buddha to enter the Mahayana and work to help other beings Awaken.

the Vajrayana is, in some aspects, like a superset of the Mahayana in that it agrees with the Mahayana veiw however, rather than teaching that Awakening will happen over "three incalcuable kalpas" the Vajrayana says that a being can Awaken in one life span.

perhaps, the greatest area of difference to be found in Buddhism, isn't so much in the doctrines or fundamentals of the practice, rather, in the philosophical schools.

the Buddhist scripture is divided into three main sections, the rules for the monastics (the Vinya) the teachings of the Buddha (Sutras) and the philosohpical grounding of the teachings (the Abidharma).

i've posted some stuff relating to the various philosophical veiws in Buddhadharma, in the Tibetan view, here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=719

with regards to schools within a Vehicle, most beings are familiar with the Theravedan school and Zen, which is a school of the Mahayana. there can be alot of schools within a Vehicle

Buddha Shakyamuni taught that there are 84,000 Dharma doors, each corresponding to the capacities and needs of an individual being. thus, we would expect to find a great many schools and different approaches to the process of Awakening.

dunno if that helps or not!

metta,

~v

 

[rdwillia]

Thanks again Vaj,

Did you notice how I waited for you to answer this one? I had to really excersize my patience as I knew you'd have a much better answer than I. Truly a beautiful explanation.

As a side-note, I've always wondered if Hinyanists call themselves the "lesser vehicle" but was never driven to ask. From my view it would be akward to explain to someone what it all meant as a Hinyanist... "Well, I'm part of the lesser vehicle, we're typically... well... lesser than the other vehicles..." It almost sounds like you're (not you personally, obviously) saying "we're typically more lazy and have lower expectations than other Buddhists." I understand that this is not the way it is meant to be, but it's just my musing on how I imagine a newbie might see it. I don't remember what I thought when I first read that but it's kind of a funny thought.

Thanks again!

~rdwillia

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste rdwillia,

thank you for the post and the kind words.

Thanks again Vaj,

Did you notice how I waited for you to answer this one? I had to really excersize my patience as I knew you'd have a much better answer than I. Truly a beautiful explanation.

thank you.

however, i would be remiss if i didn't encourage you to answer as well. though we both have a strong Vajrayana bent, our views and understandings are different and that gives, i think, a broader veiw of some of the areas... and.. heck, there is a lot i didn't touch

As a side-note, I've always wondered if Hinyanists call themselves the "lesser vehicle" but was never driven to ask.

well.. nowadays.. i wouldn't expect so... Theravedan is what i expect you'd here.. back in the day when the Hinyana had 17 schools, i suspect that it would have been more of a school sort of recognition more than anything else.

From my view it would be akward to explain to someone what it all meant as a Hinyanist... "Well, I'm part of the lesser vehicle, we're typically... well... lesser than the other vehicles..." It almost sounds like you're (not you personally, obviously) saying "we're typically more lazy and have lower expectations than other Buddhists." I understand that this is not the way it is meant to be, but it's just my musing on how I imagine a newbie might see it. I don't remember what I thought when I first read that but it's kind of a funny thought.

Thanks again!

~rdwillia

to be frank with you, when i became aware of the term, it struck me in a slightly different manner.. i read "lesser" as being a reference to the amount of beings which were able to practice it as the Theravedans tend to place a heavy emphasis on the monastic tradition whereas the Mahayana tends to place an equal empahsis on the monastics and the laiety.

you can, perhaps, imagine my surprise when people explained that some viewed it as a negative term and description!

metta,

~v

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Next questions:

1) Can a pratyekabuddha "initiate" him-/herself from the onset or does the very first initiation have to be done by someone else? (Do you understand what I'm trying to ask?)

2) Has anybody from the Hinyana vehicle "rediscovered" any of the other schools from that vehicle or have the "lost" schools merged to become the last remaining one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post and the good questions

Next questions:

1) Can a pratyekabuddha "initiate" him-/herself from the onset or does the very first initiation have to be done by someone else? (Do you understand what I'm trying to ask?)

i think i do... please correct me if i answer something you are not asking.

hmm... well... it sort of depends on ones view. from a conventional sense, yes, a Pratyekabuddha is a being which "self initates", i.e. discovers the Dharma without the benefit of a teacher or, in many cases, teachings which refer to it.

however, from a more, shall we say esoteric view, Buddhism teaches that sentient beings undergo rebirth for incalcuable eons. thus, if a being in this current arising is a Pratyekabuddha this would be indicative of their practice of the Dharma in a previous arising.

in a sense, this is the view that the Vajrayana takes with regards to its teaching of realization of Buddhahood in one arising. basically, we have practiced the Dharma for such a time that we have developed to the point where it will only take this last arising to put an end to birth, sickness, old age and death.

in the Mahayana Sutras, there is a particular sutra called the The Vajracchedika-prajna-paramita Sutra, the Diamond Perfection of Wisdom Sutra. in this Sutra it is explained that if a being has heard this teaching, it indicates that they had succesfully realized the nature of Dependent Origination and had taken the Bodhisattva Vow in a previous arising.

interestingly enough, when Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Second Turning of the Wheel from Vulture Peak, many of the monks in attendence "gnashed their teeth" in dismay at what was being taught. essentially, these beings held the view of some eternally existing, independent entity which permenatly exists from its own side. typically, this "entity" was the mind and the Prajnaparamita Sutras (the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras) explain how this is a mistaken cognition of the teaching of Shunyata. perhaps a bit off topic in our discussion at this point.

2) Has anybody from the Hinyana vehicle "rediscovered" any of the other schools from that vehicle or have the "lost" schools merged to become the last remaining one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

good question. my understanding of this isn't very firm.

from an historical perspective, i think, we should look.

in India there are and were many religious traditions, as we all know. what we may not realize, however, is that the "correctness" of each tradition was/is determined by debate in the philosophical arena, with the loser of the debate often coverting to the religious view of the winner.

given that, i would conclude that the "lost" Hinyana schools were defeated in philosophical debate and thus, were no longer practiced.

as for "rediscovering them" i think that this will be rather difficult, if possible at all.

if such a thing would happen, i suspect it would be in a country like Thailand or Sri Lanka where the Theravedan tradition was re-established after the Christian invaders destroyed the existing monastic establishements. since Buddhism places a very heavy emphasis on its lineage (the Tibetans have a saying... if a source of water is pure, you can trace it back to its source in the snowy mountians) the government of Sri Lanka asked a Theravedan group in Thailand to re-establish the lineage in Sri Lanka and thus their lineage continues there.

of course, these are my views on the subject and others may disagree.

metta,

~v

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Thank you for your seemingly limitless patience with the ever- student.

My next question is getting back on-topic concerning Vajrayana: do the different schools have differing countries of "origin"? I mean, I realize that your particular school/s originate from Tibet, but are there schools that originate from say, Nepal or Burma? Perhaps Cambodia or Laos?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste phyllis,

thank you for the post and the kind words

My next question is getting back on-topic concerning Vajrayana: do the different schools have differing countries of "origin"? I mean, I realize that your particular school/s originate from Tibet, but are there schools that originate from say, Nepal or Burma? Perhaps Cambodia or Laos?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

well... yes, simply enough

generally speaking, when we are referring to schools we mean to reference things like Zen, which is Japanese or T'ien T'ai which is Chinese, Ch'an which is Chinese and so forth.

in the broader sense, i.e. of Vehicles (mahayana and such) these are not really nation specific, though we do tend to find certain Vehicles in certain areas this is more a matter of the historical spreading of the teachings.

in my particular case, i practice the Varjayana as found in Tibet. there are, however, other Vajrayana schools, like the Shingon school in Japan and there is one in Korea (though the name slips my mind at the moment).

metta,

~v

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Next question (split it off into its own thread if you feel it's too off-topic): I was personally invited to a semi-public ritual at a Laos-origin Hinyana temple, and I'd like to be able to participate within legitimate parameters (I'm not of any school of Buddhism and I still have some of my "ortho-conservative Jewish baggage") without causing for either my hostess or myself. What might I expect and what might be their expectations.

Again, sorry. *hands over another pair of s*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine (your perpetually student with a plethora of s)

 

[Vajradhara]

Next question (split it off into its own thread if you feel it's too off-topic): I was personally invited to a semi-public ritual at a Laos-origin Hinyana temple, and I'd like to be able to participate within legitimate parameters (I'm not of any school of Buddhism and I still have some of my "ortho-conservative Jewish baggage") without causing for either my hostess or myself. What might I expect and what might be their expectations.

Again, sorry. *hands over another pair of s*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine (your perpetually student with a plethora of s)

Namaste Phyllis,

no worries... i think that threads tend to take on a flow of their own

i would have to say that, without knowing the specifics, it would be hard to answer. do you happen to know if this is for observance of any particular occassion? full moon day, perhaps?

that being said, all that i could tell you about it would be from a doctrinal point of view... my practice isn't culturally Laotian so their nuances are rather unknown to me.

metta,

~v

 

[friendoftheworld]

just testing this out

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Um, another pair (or set) of questions concerning your paths:

1) What is the significance of "excommunication" in Buddhism in general, Vajrayana vehicle in particular?

2) Is there a special significance to the "restoration" of those who have been "excommunicated" by a Vajrasattva/bohtisattva (sp?)?

Sorry about this. *hands over another pair of :kitty's*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post.

1) What is the significance of "excommunication" in Buddhism in general, Vajrayana vehicle in particular?

well.. we don't have this sort of practice in general. there are, however, situations where a monk or nun may be asked to leave the monestary which is about as close to this concept as we'd come. in that case, they are no longer a monk or nun but their level of Awakening isn't impacted by this administrative move, as it were.

2) Is there a special significance to the "restoration" of those who have been "excommunicated" by a Vajrasattva/bohtisattva (sp?)?

it seems like you're confusing a bit of Catholic teaching with ours a being does not require an intermediary to have contact with Varjasattva or any other Buddha or Bodhisattva and thus another being cannot imped such contact.

metta,

~v

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Then, what was the significance of the inverted alms bowls during the "Myanmar protests"? Wasn't that a Buddhist form of what Christians refer to as excommunication? If so, please refer back to my previous questions.

Yours in blushing confusion,
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Snoopy]

Burmese Buddhism is Theravadan. So the relationship between the monks and the laity is a two way street. The monks are striving for nirvana and are supported by the laity with alms food; put in the bowls during the alms rounds each day. In their turn, the laity receive merit for their giving and receive teaching, guidance and ceremonies from the monks (and may be reborn as monks or nuns…).

So by holding their bowls upside down, this is a message aimed at the junta, showing the monk’s rejection of said regime. It’s in effect saying the military are excommunicated from the faith.

I don’t care if any of what I’ve said is wrong; I just want kittens!

s.