Faith verses religions

[truthseeker]

Respectfully,

I agree that faith is complete without religion. It appears to me that religion is an establishment of methods that sets groups apart from others. It is a desire of the flesh to be bound and the nature of the spirit to be boundless as we strive to escape whatever system of things and return to a true nature of freedom. Usually whatever we consider to be bad or sinful is a desire of the flesh. When we are operating truly in the spirit we let go of all desires of the flesh and at that point there is no right or wrong, there just IS. It transcends all earthly values. Religion appears to me to be a construct of how to conduct oneself in the operation of the flesh while faith is a meditative process. Faith puts us in union with the God that we seek. Religion is devotion to the God that we seek - for display among our fellow man.

 

[Bandit]

Respectfully,

I agree that faith is complete without religion. It appears to me that religion is an establishment of methods that sets groups apart from others. It is a desire of the flesh to be bound and the nature of the spirit to be boundless as we strive to escape whatever system of things and return to a true nature of freedom. Usually whatever we consider to be bad or sinful is a desire of the flesh. When we are operating truly in the spirit we let go of all desires of the flesh and at that point there is no right or wrong, there just IS. It transcends all earthly values. Religion appears to me to be a construct of how to conduct oneself in the operation of the flesh while faith is a meditative process. Faith puts us in union with the God that we seek. Religion is devotion to the God that we seek - for display among our fellow man.

wow. pretty good stuff there. especially the spirit/flesh, conuct/meditative process.
you cant trap faith in an institution. religion is kind of like the 4th floor where they all wear white but sleep in padded cells.
kind of sort of.
not saying one cant have faith & religion at the same time.

 

[wil]

I believe all religions to be divinely inspired. In the beginning there was someone, who heard the word, was connected, saw the light. Now that someone was not only on various continents, speaking various languages, at various time periods; but also obviously was born and lived in a different set of circumstances with huge variances in experience and education.

That divine knowledge that was recieved would have to be interpretted differently based on all those factors. (Moses saw a burning bush, Ezekial saw a space ship, Jesus looked within...) And then we have to deal with our friends, comrades and associates...how do we tell them what we experienced, we need to postition our speech in a manner that would be acceptable for them to listen without calling for the guys in the white coats...

What if there were a man in knocking on your door today that had all the answers in the world, but spoke a dialect of Chinese that you didn't understand? What if you were able to grasp much of what he was trying to say to you, intuitively. What if it was revolutionary, beyond your capacity for words and beyond your current level of education and acceptance...yet you developed a profound understanding...how do you explain this?

I digress.

Anyway we have those various people who connected with source and explained it well enough that during their life or after they left enough folks were excited that the concepts spread....and those people developed faith in what was told to them, what they learned from religions that were created.

Some folks after years of understanding and following one religion or the other faithfully, got their moment, their enlightenment, and their ah-hah did not completely resonate with the majorority of the faithful. So they started splinter groups, either new denominations or various religions.

Oh and often somewhere sometime in there power and greed and control got involved as well and bastardized some very good thought...maybe even more than once....and that tends to cause one to 'lose' faith.

namaste,

 

[truthseeker]

I believe all religions to be divinely inspired. In the beginning there was someone, who heard the word, was connected, saw the light. Now that someone was not only on various continents, speaking various languages, at various time periods; but also obviously was born and lived in a different set of circumstances with huge variances in experience and education.

There are lots of people who are enlightened. We all help to shape eachother's thought process. That's not the basis for a religion. And religion isn't just about a supernatural being. It is a movement of people in like mind, usually for a purpose - even if it is only for enlightenment.

What if there were a man in knocking on your door today that had all the answers in the world, but spoke a dialect of Chinese that you didn't understand? What if you were able to grasp much of what he was trying to say to you, intuitively. What if it was revolutionary, beyond your capacity for words and beyond your current level of education and acceptance...yet you developed a profound understanding...how do you explain this?

Like I explained my previous post.
Each someone who came during a particular time and began a movement that we call the major religions of today, came during a time when morale was seriously low and the listeners needed to hear that message. Whenever morale gets low, the message is passed on. If it reaches the depths of the nature of the soul, it lives on as a continual message - in the case of Christianity, a message that is expounded upon as well. Religions come and go, but the ones that stick around are those in which the message continues to encourage one to search within. Religion doesn't define humanity. Humanity's endless search defines each particular religion.

Some folks after years of understanding and following one religion or the other faithfully, got their moment, their enlightenment, and their ah-hah did not completely resonate with the majorority of the faithful. So they started splinter groups, either new denominations or various religions.

I wonder why is there never a mass of ah-hah. There is always one ah-hah. Is it that through all of our toil and trouble that we haven't the time to ponder these things?

Oh and often somewhere sometime in there power and greed and control got involved as well and bastardized some very good thought...maybe even more than once....and that tends to cause one to 'lose' faith.

I would say to lose trust in the methodical processes of the institution of religion. I think we're hopeless without faith. But particular church organizations will have you believing that to be away from the church is to not be of faith; because, of course, without the people, the organization doesn't exist. Somehow, the faith still remains in one's mind and heart, though.

 

[akbar]

truthseeker,

I nearly agree with you here,

"I agree that faith is complete without religion. It appears to me that religion is an establishment of methods that sets groups apart from others. It is a desire of the flesh to be bound and the nature of the spirit to be boundless as we strive to escape whatever system of things and return to a true nature of freedom. Usually whatever we consider to be bad or sinful is a desire of the flesh. When we are operating truly in the spirit we let go of all desires of the flesh and at that point there is no right or wrong, there just IS. It transcends all earthly values. Religion appears to me to be a construct of how to conduct oneself in the operation of the flesh while faith is a meditative process. Faith puts us in union with the God that we seek. Religion is devotion to the God that we seek - for display among our fellow man."

Your expression is also good and I am not at home in English language so I face some problems in proper use of words.

 

[akbar]

wil,

I think you are right here to say,

"I believe all religions to be divinely inspired. In the beginning there was someone, who heard the word, was connected, saw the light. Now that someone was not only on various continents, speaking various languages, at various time periods; but also obviously was born and lived in a different set of circumstances with huge variances in experience and education."

One thing I have to say that base of religions is the God as nearly all religions believe in an unseen power. Proceeding further makes religion. I believe that the God is not interested in architectural design or grandeur of places of worship or which week day should be for collectivene of the concerned faithfuls. The God is not a military leader to establish or fix ways and manners of worship like military parades. Did'nt humans all over the world no manners of obedience though they differ according to traditions and we say it is, " Japanese, Hindus, Islamic, Christian, Jewish etc." As far as I know all are the modes of obedience so why insist on one one and label others as unGodly? Is God interested in dresss desighning and orders human what to wear and how to wear may be for worship? All you can talk about is decency and I would not like to define it according to my preference just as I would not define goodness as all sensible humans are well aware off.
Faith does not insist on such matters. My mystical poet says,

Mullah (Muslim clergy) taught me lesson. I would not learn further but only alif (the first alphabet), meaning the God. He insists on and continuously recites bay ( the second alphabet). So he beats me (for not proceeding and learning further).

You people can imagine what the second alphabet means in Islamic faith but poet denies to learn more.

 

[akbar]

Friends,

I hope you would not mind to read this poem again which I sent under the thread (topic), "About me and my faith" as I think it also relates to the on going discussion.
I think it would be a further explanation of the above quoted mystical poet's saying.


I am your friend also,

May not be of your skin,
May not be of your nation,
May not be of your language,
May not be of your standard,

Yet I can live as you live,
Yet I can sing as you sing,
Can love your art and ways of life,
The land you live in or any sight,

I can join you in sad and glad,
Can share your hopes and wear as you clad,
Can join you in prayers where you pray,
Though I shall say silently what I have to say,

The God I pray is your God also,
May be more yours than mine also,
The God of universe and mankind also,
I am your friend also.

I can join you to defend the just,
If you are to help weak or oppressed,
But if I happen to meet the others,
If they claim to behave as human brothers,
I may be very easily inspired also,
No restraint shall then I abide by also,
I shall embrace and say to them also,
I am your friend also.

 

[wil]

I agree that faith is complete without religion.

I also agree here. What I was trying to express is often when we see holes, discrepancies or are let down by our religion...we lose faith in that religion. If it is bad enough dramatic enough, people lose their faith altogether.

 

[truthseeker]

What I was trying to express is often when we see holes, discrepancies or are let down by our religion...we lose faith in that religion. If it is bad enough dramatic enough, people lose their faith altogether.

I agree. Perhaps these are the people who are not properly taught - the people who put the faith in the church and not in thier higher being. If the highter being is the church and they become disenchanted, well, then the faith is out the window. But if these people seek another form of religion, then I don't think they have lost faith. They have just lost trust in the institution that they feel betrayed by.

 

[wil]

wil...What I was trying to express is often when we see holes, discrepancies .... lose their faith altogether.

truthseeker...Perhaps these are the people who are not properly taught ... But if these people seek another form .... they have lost faith. They have just lost trust in the institution that they feel betrayed by.

And on the flip side... if our faith is strong... not saying just having blinders on.... we can read, learn, explore, find out all sorts of new and valid information that doesn't dent our faith. It may knock holes in the institution, make us realize that all that has been purported to be true had its bias, slant, bent...but our faith allows us to understand that there are more important things at stake. Tis that that causes others not to leave their religion but shake the tree hard enough to create new branches.

I think the biggest problem I face is the thinking that we are not strong enough to take or understand the deeper thinking underlying our religious concepts. The breadth and scope of allegory, metaphor and parables v. historical accuracy. We are treated like school children as they fear that if we see behind the curtain we may not wish to continue to fund those that insist on keeping us in the dark....

 

[truthseeker]

I think the biggest problem I face is the thinking that we are not strong enough to take or understand the deeper thinking underlying our religious concepts.

But it is true, wil. The masses are not strong enough to take or understand the deeper thinking underlying our religious concepts. The average person does not indulge in philosophical conversation about religion. Think of how many people, that you know, outside of your circle that discusses these things. Then consider how large your circle is for this kind of conversation.

The breadth and scope of allegory, metaphor and parables v. historical accuracy. We are treated like school children as they fear that if we see behind the curtain we may not wish to continue to fund those that insist on keeping us in the dark....

Sounds like politics to me...

 

[Tao_Equus]

Sounds like politics to me...

Thats exactly what religeon is though.......its the politics of faith. Do we really need politics in faith????

 

[truthseeker]

Thats exactly what religeon is though.......its the politics of faith. Do we really need politics in faith????

I propose that some people are just born with faith as a natural ability. However, other people truly need a construct. There are some people who choose a religion to fit their beliefs and others who are part of a religion which forms their beliefs. Either way, once you have gained the understanding, then I think the next phase is to overstand, in which faith becomes real and solid and truly independent of the politics. After all, we see the difference, then our position within the political aspect becomes more purposeful. Mind you, most people are not thinking this extensively about it. They are just falling in line until the catastrophic betrayal arrives, in which faith is modified onto the course of the 'enlightenment' that Wil talks about.

 

[smkolins]

Thats exactly what religeon is though.......its the politics of faith. Do we really need politics in faith????

The problem is that we are reviewing the "politics of faith" at the hind end of more than a thousand years since a widely known religious Founder - when the civilization had already peaked many hundreds of years earlier for each of those religions (for Jews the time of David, for Christians the early-mid Roman Empire, for Moslems the Abbasids and Fatimah Caliphates for example) and the administrative orders meant to preserve and perpetuate the spiritual verities have become in the eyes of too many disconnected from the very spiritual verities their Scriptures call for.

Just like governmental politics, there is a true basis of organizing human resources, which is far far from "politics" which is the seaking of advantage.

But viewed over the very long term it is clear that religions and governments have evolved and changed. So we will in the future as well - perhaps not so much waiting for God, as He is waiting for us.

 

[akbar]

Friends,

With reference to my poem, "I am your friend also" and the saying of mystical poet I would like to define faith in these words,

Faith does not insist on any thing which might be called, "my/mine/our/ours" such as communities, traditions, cultures, nations, languages, regions, manners of worships, places of worships etc. etc. etc. So there may not be any selfishness.

Faith is negation of all selfish likings and dislikings while religions insist on such things so they are sure to differ from each other.

Faith is about the God, the God of universe, the God of mankind; not of religions, communities or groups so nothing to differ.

Faith is that all which is human is good and which is inhuman is bad not caring about trifle or petty matters.

Faith is absolutely universal in its nature while religions aren't.

My mystical poet says,

You need only Aliph ( the first alphabet, The God). Stop with all other knowledges ( you need not any more for faith).

 

[akbar]

Friends,

I see that a very informative and positive discussion is going on. I am not a learned person to actively take part in it but I see a sinceity in it so I do not negate any of thoughts expressed here.

 

[akbar]

To unite in the name of any religion,

To unite in the name of any nation,

To unite in the name of any region,

To unite in the name of co-operation,

Many claim it as in the name of God,

Definitely not, it is definitely not,

All it is, but for any selfish cause,

To unite to prosper, or for any mistaken path.

unite to struggle for the justice's sake,

To highten the love and lowering the hate,

Praise the God who blessed us with values great,

To defeat the evil and every good is humane.

 

[Bandit]

Thats exactly what religeon is though.......its the politics of faith. Do we really need politics in faith????

that part does not sound right Tao. there are politics in religions but no politics in/of faith.
you cannot subdue or try to trap faith that way. i am in reference to faith in God as in a faithful God to those who are faithful to Him.
you have faith in your wife, your wife has faith in you.

not faith as in the title of a religion.

hope that helps

 

[Bandit]

And on the flip side... if our faith is strong... not saying just having blinders on.... we can read, learn, explore, find out all sorts of new and valid information that doesn't dent our faith. It may knock holes in the institution, make us realize that all that has been purported to be true had its bias, slant, bent...but our faith allows us to understand that there are more important things at stake. Tis that that causes others not to leave their religion but shake the tree hard enough to create new branches.

I think the biggest problem I face is the thinking that we are not strong enough to take or understand the deeper thinking underlying our religious concepts. The breadth and scope of allegory, metaphor and parables v. historical accuracy. We are treated like school children as they fear that if we see behind the curtain we may not wish to continue to fund those that insist on keeping us in the dark....

i say if you are going somewhere that is doing that then you need to get out & free yourself. at the same time not making waves for those who choose to stay.
everyone has a bias & a slant because we dont know everything.
OTH, my biggest problem is i see people throwing history away as if it never happened & fail to learn from history & the literal interpretations. so you have people stuck in the mud or you have people prancing around with fairy tales in their heads.
if we cant take the literal with the allegory & apply it to a literal situation in our lives then there is no way to experience anything to become a better person. at some point rubber has to meet road & to suggest that has never happened before or never happens is pretty bias.

trying to knock holes in the institution is a burden you dont need. just move on to a new life. that is what i have learned to do.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Bandit

that part does not sound right Tao. there are politics in religions but no politics in/of faith.
you cannot subdue or try to trap faith that way. i am in reference to faith in God as in a faithful God to those who are faithful to Him.
you have faith in your wife, your wife has faith in you.

not faith as in the title of a religion.

hope that helps

I think we share the same point maybe. I very much mean faith is an individual thing, when you try to externalise it, it becomes politics of religeon. The two are never the same thing as you say.
On your note to Wil, the sad fact is we do not learn from history. If we did we would not have so many wars raging across the planet, we would not have obviously corrupt politicians ruling our nations and syphoning the budgets to corporate freinds. We would not have religeous charlatans preaching hate and intolerance. You can preach histories mistakes till your blue in the face.....makes no difference because we are apt to be too selfish to relate to anything other than what happens to us directly. As for taking words literaly in such a corrupted assemblage of ambiguous tales as the bible, well to me thats pure folly. But thats for me and I appreciate thats not the case for many.

Regards

TE