Controversy surrounding Enoch

[JustPlay]

First of all, I spent some time reading some threads on this forum before I registered, and I was pleased to see a lot of genuine insight. Perhaps you'll share some with your new humble friend.

I've been reading the Book of Enoch, and the Book of the Secrets of Enoch. Prior to beginning these books, I read a little about the history of the book, and the fourth century exclusion of them by the Christian Church Fathers, and their reasons. The Church Fathers' arguments seem to have been solidly refuted, and it seems this ancient book deserves more attention amidst God fearing circles.

Perhaps someone could impartially address the other side of the debate, that Enoch was based on Genesis 6 (among many other Enochian references), and not in fact, the other way around.

Keep in mind, this was one of the most popular books in the bible up until the fourth century. Jesus would have been taught from it, and it seems like much of his teachings were simple explanations of what is put forward in Enoch.

If you read it, and God gives you the wisdom to understand it (I strongly believe that the wisdom in the Bible or scripture is protected by angels), and you believe it, it really makes the Bible, and the world with her sufferings make a lot of sense.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hello there

Think this should be in the Abrahamic religeons thread?

 

[path_of_one]

I think so, TE. Duly noted! I haven't read the Book(s) of Enoch, but may at some point. I believe they are in my "The Other Bible" book and on my reading list behind a variety of other things. "The Other Bible" is a compilation of various books from the Old and New Testaments that were omitted from the canonized Bible.

Path

 

[iBrian]

Keep in mind, this was one of the most popular books in the bible up until the fourth century. Jesus would have been taught from it, and it seems like much of his teachings were simple explanations of what is put forward in Enoch.

A few assumptions in there - while Enoch would likely have been know to many in that period, I don't believe it would necessarily have been regarded as canonical.

 

[wil]

The Church Fathers' arguments seem to have been solidly refuted .... Keep in mind, this was one of the most popular books in the bible up until the fourth century. Jesus would have been taught from it

Can you provide background for the above? I know the Ascended Masters use the book heavily, are there other groups that use it today? And if it was used in teaching jewish students then, is it used in teaching any jewish students today?

 

[aburaees]

Personally, I think if anyone is going to ommit ENOCH from the Bible they should be consistent and ommit the book of JUDE.

Reason: The book of JUDE directly quotes a prophecy that is otherwise only found in the book of ENOCH.

 

[FriendRob]

Personally, I think if anyone is going to ommit ENOCH from the Bible they should be consistent and ommit the book of JUDE.

Reason: The book of JUDE directly quotes a prophecy that is otherwise only found in the book of ENOCH.

Exactly right, aburaees (and welcome to you and to JustPlay). Jude not only quotes from Enoch, it names it, too.

One thing is certain, that Enoch was NOT written by the person of that name who is mentioned in Genesis. There is no indication that anyone had ever heard of the book before about 100 BC, and the apocalyptic style fits well with the period 100 BC-100 AD in Jewish writing, and not at all with period of the Pentateuch. So the book is "pseudepigraphical", as the scholars say: it was written by someone claiming to be Enoch, not by the Enoch of Scripture. In plainer language, it is a forgery.

This could be considered in itself a reason for rejecting it, except for the uncomfortable fact that several of the accepted books of the Bible are also pseudepigraphical, according to modern scholarship. 2 Peter is one example: even the early church fathers realized that the style of Greek in 2 Pete is much too different from that in 1 Pete to have been written by the same person. Also, 2 Pete mentions church officials such as bishops and elders that simply didn't exist until much later in the development of the church government.

 

[wil]

I've never been able to understand properly the difference between partly cloudy and partly sunny and have similar issues with my last to choices in the poll.

Enoch in, Jude out... if the council was convened again to revise the canon...affecting one of the only book in the world that does not change despite new information....me thinks it would change dramatically. My fav is Jonah an op/ed political satire piece of its day if those with ears may hear.

For me the bible as a book is a great spiritual source....one of many, including many that the council rejected....and many others that the council never considered.

 

[pohaikawahine]

I like The Book of Enoch .... to me, and this is just my view, it reads close to the Zohar symbolically (The Zohar is the Book of Splendor or Book of Enlightnment connected with the ways of the Jewish Mystics) .... I look for the inner meaning of symbols as they relate to an ancient path of wisdom and Enoch is filled with them. Regardless of who it was written by, it is beautiful and it is bold in its approach to spiritualism. Here are a few of my favorite passeges:


"And at the extremities of the earth I beheld twelve gates open for all the winds, from which they proceed and blow over the earth" .... the "twelve gates" and the "winds that blow" are all ancient symbols

"Seven high mountains I beheld, higher than all the mountains of the earth" "Seven rivers I beheld on earth, greater than all rivers" "Seven great islands I saw in the sea and on earth. Seven in the great sea."

"In the orb of the sun there is a seventh portion of light, which is added to it from the moon. By measure it is put in, until a seventh portion of the light of the sun is departed. They set, enter into the western gate, circuit by the north, and through the eastern gate go forth over the face of heaven."

'This is the book of the words of righteousness and of the reproof of the Watchers"

Enoch is sometimes referred to as a great priest-scientist of a previous time cycle who spoke the "language of light". He is reportedly the Father of Methuselah and great grandfather of Noah .... he was known to the Egyptians as Thoth the "Lord of Magic and Time" and to the Greeks as Hermes "messenger of the gods" and is also said to be the wizard Merlin of the Celtic tradition. As one who attained immortality, the secret of how we "might become as the gods", Thoth/Enoch promises to return at the end of time "with the keys to the gates of the sacred land." Many traditions promise a return to an ancient lost knowledge at "the end of time" (the end of the present time cycle) such as the Mayan legend of Quetzacoatel and many other prophecies and prophets.

The key to understanding Enoch lies in the lost knowledge of the mother tongue as the "language of light" known to the ancients as HIBURU, it is the primal seed language.... it is the most ancient form of Hebrew .... it is a harmonic language, mimicking the waveform properties of light. The "keys" are, in my view, sound keys .... to speak with the gods, you must learn the language of light .... that is the concept behind the language of light....

mantras, chant, deep prayer, deep meditation, spinning, rocking .... all are versions of opening the internal channels to allow the energy of light to flow and different frequencies will open different doors ....

Even the word Phoenix is derived from the Egyptian word Pa-Hanok meaning "The house of Enoch" .... and from the word Jedaiah meaning the "way of the word" or the "power of the word" the ancient JEDAI priests used the language of light to tune the planet (don't you love that Jedai .... we are right back to Star Wars) ....

All this to suggest that The Book of Enoch is an important piece of who we are and what we can become .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine

 

[InChristAlways]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I was looking at the 8 weeks in Enoch and doesn't it appear to follow the OT/NT prophecies pretty accurately?
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]93.6 And after this, in the fourth week, at its end, visions of the righteous and Holy will be seen, and a Law for All Generations, and an enclosure will be made for them. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]93.7 And after this, in the fifth week, at its end, a House of Glory and Sovereignty will be built forever. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is this the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in the OT?
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]93.8 And after this, in the sixth week, all those who live in it will be blinded. And the hearts of them all, lacking wisdom, will sink into impiety. And in it, a man will ascend, and at its end, the House of Sovereignty will be burnt with fire. And in it, the whole race of the chosen root will be scattered. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]93.9 And after this, in the seventh week, an apostate generation will arise. And many will be its deeds, but all its deeds will be apostasy.
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Would this represent those in Christ Jesus?
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93.10 And at its end, the Chosen Righteous, from the Eternal Plant of Righteousness, will be chosen, to whom will be given sevenfold teaching, concerning his whole creation.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This sounds like the 70 weeks of Daniel?
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91.7 And when iniquity, and sin, and blasphemy, and wrong, and all kinds of evil deeds increase, and when apostasy, wickedness, and uncleanness increase, a great punishment will come from Heaven, upon all these. And the Holy Lord will come in anger, and in wrath, to execute judgement on the earth.[/font]

Dani 9:24 Seventy 7's [weeks], have been divided concerning thy people and concerning thy holy city--to put an end to the transgression, and fill up the measure of sin, and put a propitiatory-covering over iniquity, and bring in the righteousness of ages, and affix a seal the vision and prophecy, and anoint the holy of holies.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91.8 In those days wrongdoing will be cut off at its roots, and the roots of iniquity, together with deceit, will be destroyed from under Heaven. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This sounds like Babylon in revelation/Olivet discourse
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91.9 And all the idols of the nations will be given up, their towers will be burnt in fire, and they will remove them from the whole earth. And they will be thrown down into the Judgement of Fire, and will be destroyed in anger, and in the severe judgement that is forever.


[/font] Reve 18:8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day -- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong [is] the Lord God who judges her.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This look like Daniel 12?
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91.10 And the righteous will rise from sleep, and wisdom will rise, and will be given to them.
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Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91.11 And after this, the roots of iniquity will be cut off, and the sword will destroy the sinners. The blasphemers will be cut off in every place; blasphemy will be destroyed by the sword. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91.12 And after this there will be another week; the eighth, that of righteousness, and a sword will be given to it, so that the Righteous Judgement may be executed on those who do wrong, and the sinners will be handed over, into the hands of the righteous. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Perhaps the New Jerusalem Above?
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]91.13 And at its end, they will acquire Houses because of their righteousness, and a House will be built for the Great King in Glory, forever.

[/font]Galatians 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[InChristAlways]

I was looking at the 8 weeks in Enoch and doesn't it appear to follow the OT/NT prophecies pretty accurately?
This look like Daniel 12?

91.10 And the righteous will rise from sleep, and wisdom will rise, and will be given to them.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

I like The Book of Enoch .... to me, and this is just my view, it reads close to the Zohar symbolically (The Zohar is the Book of Splendor or Book of Enlightnment connected with the ways of the Jewish Mystics) .... I look for the inner meaning of symbols as they relate to an ancient path of wisdom and Enoch is filled with them. Regardless of who it was written by, it is beautiful and it is bold in its approach to spiritualism. Here are a few of my favorite passeges:


"And at the extremities of the earth I beheld twelve gates open for all the winds, from which they proceed and blow over the earth" .... the "twelve gates" and the "winds that blow" are all ancient symbols

"Seven high mountains I beheld, higher than all the mountains of the earth" "Seven rivers I beheld on earth, greater than all rivers" "Seven great islands I saw in the sea and on earth. Seven in the great sea."All this to suggest that The Book of Enoch is an important piece of who we are and what we can become .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine

Greetings in Peace pohaikawahine. Oh my! You would love the Christian book of revelation then brother as it also has the symbolism as both Enoch and Ezekiel does.

I have not read through Enoch in over a year but I may read through again soon and try to harmonize it with the Christian book of revelation. That 8 Weeks simply astounded me, and that is the same number of people that were saved in the flood of Noah and perhaps 8 is a mystical number that might mean "perfection"? Thoughts on this?
Steve

"And at the extremities of the earth I beheld twelve gates open for all the winds, from which they proceed and blow over the earth" .... the "twelve gates" and the "winds that blow" are all ancient symbols

reve 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light [was] like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates[size=+2],[/size]

"Seven high mountains I beheld, higher than all the mountains of the earth"

Reve 17:9 "Here [is] the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

"In the orb of the sun there is a seventh portion of light, which is added to it from the moon. By measure it is put in, until a seventh portion of the light of the sun is departed. They set, enter into the western gate, circuit by the north, and through the eastern gate go forth over the face of heaven."

In the OT, the 3 tribes representing Judah were on the East side of the camp, and ironically, Isaiah mentions a "ravenous" bird from the East and revelation also shows an angel coming from the East. Pretty fascinating.

Isaiah 46:11 Calling from the east a ravenous bird, From a far land the man of My counsel, Yea, I have spoken, yea, I bring it in, I have formed [it], yea, I do it.

Revelation 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
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[Quahom1]

...Perhaps someone could impartially address the other side of the debate, that Enoch was based on Genesis 6 (among many other Enochian references), and not in fact, the other way around...

The Book of Enoch goes into great detail explaining the corruption of mankind by the Watchers, and goes so far as to name the major fallen angels, who taught man things from makeup to weapons to astrology, etc., and allegedly caused the corruption of Man in general. It also described how the fallen asked Enoch to intercede on their behalf to God, to set them free. (God refused).

The book was quoted by the majority of the church fathers, however it was removed from Hebrew scripture in 90 AD and discredited by the council in 362 AD.

There are some churches that still include Enoch as part of their bible, including the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and Essenes.

It would be difficult for Enoch to be the originating source for Genesis 6 since it is believed to have been written in the Third Century BC. and known texts to be written circa 160 BC. The Pentatuch was begun (including Genesis), centuries earlier.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

A 1978 translation, from classical Ethiopic or Ge'ez:

http://www.bookofenoch.org/ENOCH-McCracken2020.pdf

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

A slightly revised 2023 version of the 1883 Laurence edition. The Introduction includes several pages of parallel passages from NT:

https://www.bibletranslation.ws/down/enoch-laurence.pdf