Aleister Crowley - a fraud?

Namaste Alexa,

thank you for the post.

alexa said:
By the way, what does this mean : 'Namaste ' ?

alexa
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it's an ancient Nepali greeting made with the palms pressed together and held in front of the chest. it's a bit difficult to translate exactly, however, the best transliteration that i've seen is thus:

"i bow to the divine in you. when you are in that place in you and i am in that place in me, there is but one of us."
 
Namaste Mus Zibii,

thanks for the post.

Mus Zibii said:
There was mention of Scientology at one point. I found this audio file of Hubbard talking about Crowley.
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did you know that only an Operating Theatan is even allowed to know about the existence of Xenu? there are very few OT's in the entire organization.. mostly due to the cost involved in the whole process... nevertheless... Xenu is officially denied in everything but the most "classified" literature.
 
Vajradhara said:
"Do what thy whilt shall be the whole of the Law" with the addendum "provided that it harm none."
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I think this is confusing the Wiccan Rede (which is "An it harm none, do what you will") with Crowley's maxim: "Do what thou wilt; love is the law, love under Will." It's usually just summarized as "Do what thou wilt" or "do what you will."

Perhaps some of Crowley's followers did add the bit to minimize harm to the maxim, but I suspect this was after Crowley's death. (I'm a Wiccan althought I do have some knowledge of Crowley and Thelema, although mostly in relation to Wicca.)
 
Namaste bgruagach,

thank you for the post.

bgruagach said:
I think this is confusing the Wiccan Rede (which is "An it harm none, do what you will") with Crowley's maxim: "Do what thou wilt; love is the law, love under Will." It's usually just summarized as "Do what thou wilt" or "do what you will."
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what can i say... they seem to be feeling the heat from the standard maxim.. especially given the recent events in Milwaukee.. at least from what i gather the I.O.T. gathering there was pretty focused on specifically getting the O.T.O.

eh... you know how it is when family fights :)

Perhaps some of Crowley's followers did add the bit to minimize harm to the maxim, but I suspect this was after Crowley's death. (I'm a Wiccan althought I do have some knowledge of Crowley and Thelema, although mostly in relation to Wicca.)
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LOl.. yeah, you can bet it was after his death! Alistar, though all for changing things himself, wasn't so keen on others changing his work. go figure :)
 
[QUOTE :He's very interesting indeed. Too bad that he's so antropocentric in his teachings.[/QUOTE]
I found him interesting, not because who he was or what he tried to teach, but of the influence he had after his death.

Here you have something from The Goetia of the Lemegeton of King Solomon."
From the book "Magick in Theory and Practice"
[size=+1]The Eternal Questioner[/size]
  • If time could stand stillHow long life should seemFor life is but an illusionA state of concious dreamAnd when life is all but overTime will wait no moreLife but just the questionDid you see the things you sawAnd when questions can't be answeredAnswer is not to gainWas my concious worth the effortAnd time but stopped in vain.
 
Originally posted by Vajradhara
[sic]especially given the recent events in Milwaukee[sic]
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Namastar ji, Vaj, but what events are you refering to? I'm from Milwaukee and I haven't heard anything.

Bolshoi spacibo (Russian for big/huge/great thanks).

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
 
Hi bgruagach,

Could you tell me what you know about Crowley and the releation to Wicca, please ? :)

Thanks,

alexa
 
Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine said:
Namastar ji, Vaj, but what events are you refering to? I'm from Milwaukee and I haven't heard anything.

Bolshoi spacibo (Russian for big/huge/great thanks).

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
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the Western Hemispheres meeting of the I.O.T. was recently held in Milwaukee.. and it is this event to which i'm referring.

the O.T.O. and the I.O.T. seem to be at each others throats.. especially in recent years.

i'm not at liberty to discuss too much of the meeting, i'm sure you understand :)
 
alexa said:
Hi bgruagach,
Could you tell me what you know about Crowley and the releation to Wicca, please ? :)
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Sure!

I'll start by providing three books that contain excellent information on the topic:

"The Rebirth of Witchcraft" by Doreen Valiente (Doreen was one of Gerald Gardner's earliest, and probably most influential, high priestesses.)

"Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" by Philip Heselton.

"The Triumph of the Moon" by Ronald Hutton.

Hutton's the most scholarly and the most in depth on the origins and influences of Wicca. Heselton's books provide a lot of interesting information (and the one I mentioned above has a lot on the Crowley connection in particular) but some of his conclusions are not very solid. Valiente provides a lot of valuable insight as she was there almost from the first and provides her own experiences and insights that many others repeat as second-hand info.

The short version of events is that Gardner, being the all-round occultist that he was, had read some of Crowley's material (it was available well before Gardner started into Wicca) as well as many other English occult documents such as Margaret Murray's witchcraft books, Folklore Society stuff, Ross Nichols' druidry, etc.

Gardner was taken to meet Crowley in 1947 by a mutual acquaintance, Arnold Crowther (who became a Wiccan and was married to Patricia Crowther, one of Gardner's later high priestesses.) Crowther had contacted Crowley previously and asked if he could bring Gardner along to meet him.

Gardner was all gung-ho to get involved in Crowley's OTO at that point, and obtained (was given or purchased) a charter from Crowley to start up a lodge and administer at least the very first couple of OTO degrees.

Gardner met with Crowley once or twice after that first meeting. Crowley died in 1947 so Gardner didn't have a lot of opportunity to spend with him.

There were rumors that Crowley had written the Wiccan Book of Shadows (the manual of basic rituals and philosophy) but this is pretty much considered to be false. Crowley would have done much better if he'd done the writing -- the Crowley bits that are in there are obviously copied from existing Crowley material, some of it not copied too accurately from what I've heard.

Gardner didn't pursue involvement in the OTO too seriously and instead put his energy into Wicca after Crowley's death.

There is a lot of interesting information about Gardner (including the Crowley connection, and pictures of Gardner's OTO charter) at http://www.geraldgardner.com/ Check in the Archive section for the OTO charter.

Gardner was also influenced by other sources (Dion Fortune, grimoires like the Key of Solomon, Margaret Murray, and druidry) so Wicca isn't just an OTO wanna-be system but an eclectic compilation.
 
COOL, I'll try to find the books. Nice link.

Thanks again, bgruagach,

alexa :)
 
bgruagach said:
Sure!

"Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" by Philip Heselton.
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Philip Heselton is a local author here - got one of his books on ley-lines. Fairly sane reading, and comfortably short, but I've not read this particular work.
 
I said:
Philip Heselton is a local author here - got one of his books on ley-lines. Fairly sane reading, and comfortably short, but I've not read this particular work.
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I expect Heselton would be a very interesting man to chat with. "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" is similar to his earlier one, "Wiccan Roots" but goes into a lot more detail.
 
I chatteed with his wife when I turned up to a local Friends of the Earth meeting, a few years back. Towards the end, I told them that their newsletter was pretty poorly formated and offered to help improve it. They were not impressed and I never went back. :)
 
I said:
I chatteed with his wife when I turned up to a local Friends of the Earth meeting, a few years back. Towards the end, I told them that their newsletter was pretty poorly formated and offered to help improve it. They were not impressed and I never went back. :)
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Some people are overly sensitive of any creative efforts, including newsletters. They sound like it was their "baby" and therefore your comment about the formatting was an insult.

It's their loss. People who expect to be handled with kid gloves all the time rarely find they end up with many friends.
 
Heh, same thing happened with the local archaeology group when I mentioned the problems with their out-of-date single page website. :)
 
Brian,

Did you notice how the drivers react in their car ? A good driver will take a look around quickly and pass. But, a lot of them will pass without looking at all.

Those from the second category maybe they don't care or they are too afraid to look around. I don't wanna talk about others, as I try to make a point.

In my opinion, you spoke with people from the second category, those who drive without looking.

I agree with Ben.

Regards,

alexa
 
I don't think that Crowley was a fraud, but he was fey. He was raised in a very strict sect of Evangelical Christianity founded by a man called Darby(?) who was the fellow who developed Dispensationalism (sp?). Crowley's mother was the one who gave him the title of "the Beast". So a lot of the outlandish things he did and said were framed by his strict Plymouth Brethren upbringing. Also, Crowley was brillant and had a sharp bitting wit. He made a lots of enemies. He did a lot of Magical Workings and wrote a lot of books. Crowley should be judged in the light of the "bel epoch" and just afterward. The gore and horror of WWI, the Russian Revolution, the Jazz Age and Suffrage for women. In a time when most "Orders" looked for ancient sources (an example could be Wicca), Crowley looked toward the New Aeon. I think he can be judged by his very beautiful Tarot deck, which is in the "cubist" style and very complex. I think what made Crowley a great magician was that he dared. I think Crowley's weakness was that he did not keep silent.
 
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