I congratulate this statement as not prosyletizing, no attempt at converting anyone, nor putting down of any others beliefs....as no bahai would ever do that on this or any other board....however if the same statement were made by others....
Awaiting_the_fifth
Where is my mind?
Mick said:
I would argue that there is nothing logical involved in any kind of spirituality, logic is, more often than not, opposed to faith.
Mick said:
Quite right, and where better to investigate the principles of this new religion than in the "modern religions" section?
Mick said:
I cant argue with that, the only problem is that we do not all agree on which religion is God's true religion, or even if there is a God at all, hence the need for such diverse, interfaith communities as our's here at CR to discuss and understand one another.
P
Popeyesays
Guest
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
I would disagree about logic and faith. That which can only be believed by faith MIGHT be superstition. Just as that can only be believed by MATERIAL evidence, might be crass materialism.
"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.
But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit, and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 317)
Logic does not require material evidence alone. It can proceed from intuition as well. To confuse logic with scientific method is a common error. The "scientific method" is one very specific form of logic, by far not the only one.
". . . hence the need for such diverse, interfaith communities as our's here at CR to discuss and understand one another."
Absolutely! But this is not the ONLY such diverse, interfaith community. I offer: http://www.interfaithforums.com/index.php and http://www.interfaithforums.com/index.php
both of these particular forae use the same bulletin board software as CR. And that's just the beginning for interfaith dialogue sites. Some are snake pits, but the two above are very similar to this board in tone and social behavior. One of these forums actually includes the Rastafari in the Abrahamic section. The board is largely inactive, but its there. And apparently no explosions occured when they organized it that way.
Regards,
Scott
M
Mick
Guest
wil said:
Now, Wil. I think that maybe that was a little sarcastic. Proselytizing by definition is an attempt to convert. I am surely not doing that nor can that paragraph that you quoted be construed as meaning that. Now if you have another definition for proselytizing, please, share it with me.
Mick
M
Mick
Guest
Scott,
I say this lovingly. One of the complaints I read in the past is that Baha'is have a tendancy to answer everything with a quote. May I suggest that very long posts that are filled with quotes and URL's may just irritate some. I surely understand that quotations from the Writings are powerful and I have found little argument when I am in a conversation with somebody, but in this type of forum, one could see it as "trying to force it down one's throat", don't you think. Thank you for your wonderful support. Your love and concern for humanity sees no bounds. I am sure that is what drives you to quote as you do.
warmly,
Mick Zellar
I say this lovingly. One of the complaints I read in the past is that Baha'is have a tendancy to answer everything with a quote. May I suggest that very long posts that are filled with quotes and URL's may just irritate some. I surely understand that quotations from the Writings are powerful and I have found little argument when I am in a conversation with somebody, but in this type of forum, one could see it as "trying to force it down one's throat", don't you think. Thank you for your wonderful support. Your love and concern for humanity sees no bounds. I am sure that is what drives you to quote as you do.
warmly,
Mick Zellar
a little?
if one tells another he shouldn't belittle that which he knows not and that he'll pay for it later...is a form of negative advertising...an attempt to convert.
if one tells another his car has all the bells and whisltes of all cars previously made, and has more safety features and anyone with a brain would ride in it...that is an attempt to convert
if one tells another they need to explore this text more, read these texts more, realise that we have very few rules, a great brunch, and aren't condescending like the other guys.....that is an attempt to convert.
Now you may see it otherwise...you may see it as just spreading the 'good news', I'm not saying anything against you but a drunk doesn't know he has a problem. They need to step out of the picture and see for themselves.
One thing could be beneficial...if you are having this wonderful conversation, back and forth, tit for tat, enjoying the fray and learning all the way. If others are commenting on the validity, exploring more, asking you more questions, inquiring more about the concepts...that is a discussion.
If you are in a constant state of defense...could it not be that your opinion differs?
I mean mine differs with many, that is what this board is about, the exploration on the forums outside of your stated belief system...and the extrapolation inside your own forum.
Its all good...its all about growth....I'd say sorry for the sarcasm, but it may have allowed us more frank discussion....maybe not...time will tell.
M
Mick
Guest
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Now that's interesting. 'Nothing logical involved in any kind of spirituality...' hmmmm. So if there is nothing logical concerning spirituality, which to most of us means pertaining to God, then are you suggesting that spirituality or things pertaining to God are illogical?
We are told that God gave us, man, logic so we could know Him. It is with the use of our rational mind that we become convinced of the existence of the Etheral. Irrationality is the result of man not using his logic. If God created the heavens and the earth, and most religionists believe this in some sort of fashion, and interaction of all the molecules that inhabit the universe are based on a measured and logical science, then it holds that logic is what we need to know God, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Simply because some scientist and some religionist do not agree on Creation, does not mean that one or the other is 100% right. The truth, it would seem, could be somewhere between these two warring factions. I vote for logic. Anybody else?
Huh?
Aaah...Mick says, as he looks around to see if anybody is paying attention. That is the crux of the problem, though a little off topic. Let me just say, that we have been told that all the religions of God have sourced from the same God. That the religion of God is eternal and ever-changing. That this phenomenom is called The Progressive Revelation of God. That the differences between religions, many times, can be explained by the culture it was introduced in and the amount of time mankind has had to fill its practices with dogma, that seldom have anything to do with the core message of the Manifestation.
Of course, this could be a little too logical for some, but I have explained this verbally to those that have nodded their head in understanding and said, Ah Ha! If you can't accept this, so be it, but it is what we have been told to disseminate to the world in hopes of seeing a unity between all of mankind, not achieved by conversion, but by tolerance. Unity in diversity.
Mick
M
Mick
Guest
Wil,
Sorry guy. I really am trying to have discourse here. On the other hand, if you met me in person, you would never know I am a Baha'i unless you asked me. And when I responded to a question and you acted uncomfortable, I wouldn't continue.
But if you continued to ask questions and have conversation with me about my beliefs, I would feel comfortable in continuing. If you don't believe in what I share with you, that is fine. I am only sharing information that was elicited from an enquiry. My first post in this thread was from my irritation of being treated in what I construed as an attack on the Baha'i Faith. Since, then, I have tried to respond to your and others questions and comments. Again, if you can't accept them, that is ok. I am sure that you and others here have ideas and beliefs that I wouldn't be comfortable with. So what? We already knew that before we joined this forum.
But to keep using the word proselytize to describe every attempt to respond to somebody's question or statement is getting tiring. I surely am not wanting to offend you, but I will not mince my words when it comes to conversation about God.
wearily,
Mick
Sorry guy. I really am trying to have discourse here. On the other hand, if you met me in person, you would never know I am a Baha'i unless you asked me. And when I responded to a question and you acted uncomfortable, I wouldn't continue.
But if you continued to ask questions and have conversation with me about my beliefs, I would feel comfortable in continuing. If you don't believe in what I share with you, that is fine. I am only sharing information that was elicited from an enquiry. My first post in this thread was from my irritation of being treated in what I construed as an attack on the Baha'i Faith. Since, then, I have tried to respond to your and others questions and comments. Again, if you can't accept them, that is ok. I am sure that you and others here have ideas and beliefs that I wouldn't be comfortable with. So what? We already knew that before we joined this forum.
But to keep using the word proselytize to describe every attempt to respond to somebody's question or statement is getting tiring. I surely am not wanting to offend you, but I will not mince my words when it comes to conversation about God.
wearily,
Mick
P
Popeyesays
Guest
Mick said:
Thanks,
In this context I sent links about Bahai Faith and Glasgow where Tao Equus is from, just thought it might help him center himself about what the Bahai Faith is in his world.
Equal Regards,
Scott
A question...in marketing one of the things to stay away from is saying you have the lowest price...because if your loyal buyers are only here for low price than soon as someone opens up with a lower price ... your marketing tactic is out the window. Now I know you are not marketing or converting or proselytizing but...
Does any of this make sense? Not does it make sense, but does the analogy work...
and are all the firesides open and on Fridays? in College Park, Montgomery County SE, Takoma Park and does anyone have a recommendation?
The way I read it or understand it is that this is the latest and greatest and that is how things normally proceed. So we know, in the hebrew books this was the word and that was the end of it.. Well Jesus read the word and the prophecies and set out to fullfil them, and then we wrote at the end of those books, this is it, that's the end, no modifications or changes...but then Mohamed ppuh...and then our book of Mormon..and now we have Bahai. Now they all wrote and professed to be prophets and receivers and givers of the word and that theirs was the be all and end all...so obviously somewhere down the road, the bahai would naturally not only expect but be waiting for the latest model from Detroit, and wouldn't object to jump in and take a test drive as they along with the other incarnations ignored the don't change the word passage...
Does any of this make sense? Not does it make sense, but does the analogy work...
and are all the firesides open and on Fridays? in College Park, Montgomery County SE, Takoma Park and does anyone have a recommendation?
P
Popeyesays
Guest
wil said:
If you're asking whether the Baha`i Faith says this is the LAST and END to revelation, well the answer is no.
"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso 60 maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 59)
If you're wondering about contacting Baha`i's in Takoma Park, MD area:
Bahai Community of Takoma Park
7208 13th Pl
Takoma Park, MD 20912
(301) 445-0440
Baha Is of Mntgmry Cntrl
11909 Veirs Mill Rd
Silver Spring, MD 20906
(301) 933-9397
Bahal Faith of Rockville
Rockville, MD 20850
(301) 340-1430
Firesides are always open to the public, as are devotions, children's classes and study circles.
Regards,
Scott
smkolins
Bahá'í
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
So how do we compare to the religions of the day when they were 100-150 yrs old?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Hi Scott,
I for one do read and appreciate your posts as they allow me to familiarise myself contextualy with the Baha'i faith. As I had barely ever heard Baha'i mentioned before joining CR, and have enjoyed the contributions from yourself and others, they are of help to me in understanding the direction from which you approach a subject.
The links you provided for the Baha'i in Glasgow I have not had time to look at more than 2. One of which did not seem to want to let me look at anything till I had provided my personal details, something I find strange in a faith site.
I have seen you around on many of the threads here and so feel pretty confident you understand that I will view Baha'i as pretty similair to other monotheisms. Whether or not proselytization is acceptable or not in your faith is of no importance to me personaly and I find it difficult to see where the line is fairly drawn between expression and evangelising. So if it is the case your faith forbids it then perhaps thats a mistake. And this is the Baha'i thread and non-Baha'i need not be here if they dont want to hear what you have to say. On the other side I saw childrens study groups mentioned and that I personaly deem ethicly unsound, thats proselytizing to as yet unformed minds. I find that creepy regardless of the the religeon. Its a difficult enough subject for adults to comprehend.
To Steven and Mick,
Religeon of any kind is a matter of faith, feeling and belief not logic. So is religeon illogical? Yes in many respects it is. But falling in love also can be seen as illogical. So can a gambling, drug, drink or any other addiction. Yet people continue to do all of them, usually blindly, justifying to themselves when required and refusing to accept the opinions of others that point out the illogical nature of their wants. So in many respects religeous belief is more akin to an addiction, and uses the same possibly false logic to justify a position.
You may say but we have the scriptures to lead us, they are our source of logic. But the Lotto promotes its rewards reminding you logicly you got to be 'in it to win it'. The drinks industry never promotes itself with a wife beating drunkard who's lost his job, his right to drive, his self respect and possibly his liver. No thats not logical in trying to sell something. So they gloss it up with young perfect bodies having a good time, all sober and joyous and smiling.
Now you might fairly say that there is no parallal between alcohol and faith in terms of its profundity, and I would agree. But in terms of health, IMHO, overdosing on religeon is a mental health issue clearly in the camp of addiction. When one is unable to stand back and look objectively and criticly at something they are being illogical. This is very very common amongst people with deep religeous convictions. In the Highlands of Scotland we say of a person who has deep held religeous beliefs that "he/she has 'got' the religeon", very much as we would say 'he/she has got the plague'. We are a pragmatic, even cynical, people maybe but there is an honesty in such an approach.
Trying to say that faith is logical is just not possible. Faith comes from the pit of your stomache, from your heart and from your souls connection to the greater whole. We have no true way to rationalise it. Thats not to say we should dismiss it either. In moderation it is beautiful, enriching and even exhilerating and is a fundamental part of the human psyche. Each of us, whether or not we belong to an organised religeon, will find our own flavour of comprehension, often similair but never identical to that of any other. You cant paint a masterpiece with a single colour and so I enjoy the profusion of expression I see. Art too often has no logic. There too it is not diminished by its absence.
Regards and respect
TE
P.S. yes I am aware that I almost always spell the word 'religion' wrong, typo's are my speciality tho
I for one do read and appreciate your posts as they allow me to familiarise myself contextualy with the Baha'i faith. As I had barely ever heard Baha'i mentioned before joining CR, and have enjoyed the contributions from yourself and others, they are of help to me in understanding the direction from which you approach a subject.
The links you provided for the Baha'i in Glasgow I have not had time to look at more than 2. One of which did not seem to want to let me look at anything till I had provided my personal details, something I find strange in a faith site.
I have seen you around on many of the threads here and so feel pretty confident you understand that I will view Baha'i as pretty similair to other monotheisms. Whether or not proselytization is acceptable or not in your faith is of no importance to me personaly and I find it difficult to see where the line is fairly drawn between expression and evangelising. So if it is the case your faith forbids it then perhaps thats a mistake. And this is the Baha'i thread and non-Baha'i need not be here if they dont want to hear what you have to say. On the other side I saw childrens study groups mentioned and that I personaly deem ethicly unsound, thats proselytizing to as yet unformed minds. I find that creepy regardless of the the religeon. Its a difficult enough subject for adults to comprehend.
To Steven and Mick,
Religeon of any kind is a matter of faith, feeling and belief not logic. So is religeon illogical? Yes in many respects it is. But falling in love also can be seen as illogical. So can a gambling, drug, drink or any other addiction. Yet people continue to do all of them, usually blindly, justifying to themselves when required and refusing to accept the opinions of others that point out the illogical nature of their wants. So in many respects religeous belief is more akin to an addiction, and uses the same possibly false logic to justify a position.
You may say but we have the scriptures to lead us, they are our source of logic. But the Lotto promotes its rewards reminding you logicly you got to be 'in it to win it'. The drinks industry never promotes itself with a wife beating drunkard who's lost his job, his right to drive, his self respect and possibly his liver. No thats not logical in trying to sell something. So they gloss it up with young perfect bodies having a good time, all sober and joyous and smiling.
Now you might fairly say that there is no parallal between alcohol and faith in terms of its profundity, and I would agree. But in terms of health, IMHO, overdosing on religeon is a mental health issue clearly in the camp of addiction. When one is unable to stand back and look objectively and criticly at something they are being illogical. This is very very common amongst people with deep religeous convictions. In the Highlands of Scotland we say of a person who has deep held religeous beliefs that "he/she has 'got' the religeon", very much as we would say 'he/she has got the plague'. We are a pragmatic, even cynical, people maybe but there is an honesty in such an approach.
Trying to say that faith is logical is just not possible. Faith comes from the pit of your stomache, from your heart and from your souls connection to the greater whole. We have no true way to rationalise it. Thats not to say we should dismiss it either. In moderation it is beautiful, enriching and even exhilerating and is a fundamental part of the human psyche. Each of us, whether or not we belong to an organised religeon, will find our own flavour of comprehension, often similair but never identical to that of any other. You cant paint a masterpiece with a single colour and so I enjoy the profusion of expression I see. Art too often has no logic. There too it is not diminished by its absence.
Regards and respect
TE
P.S. yes I am aware that I almost always spell the word 'religion' wrong, typo's are my speciality tho
P
Popeyesays
Guest
Tao_Equus said:
Tao,
i didn't have trouble entering any of the sites, but I ran into several newspaper sites that wanted one to subscribe, I tried to avoid sending those - sorry.
Proselytizing, teaching, answering questions, evangelizing - all words with sometimes blurred definitions.
The essence of the Baha`i Faith is that "conversion" is really impossible when talking of anyone who is already a follower of the religion of God in one form or the other. So, in that sense, I did not convert from Christianity to the Baha`i Faith because I did not give up my veneration for Christ in the process. If you catch the nuance, that's good - I don't know how to explain it better.
As to child education, well, no child comes to a Baha`i Children's class without a parent to bring them - so I don't see a problem. Here in the U.S. I have participated in Sunday devotions and children's classes for many years, I have seen a number of parents who were not Baha`i bring their children to Baha`i classes because they wanted a moral education for the children that they felt could not be found elsewhere. No child can become enrolled in the Baha`i Faith if below the legal age of consent (usually 18). Even then, a child residing at home would be advised to create no unbridgeable divisions in his family by enrolling. Unity is the object.
I think the best way to get a glimpse of what Baha`i's are or are not is to meet some and acquaint oneself with them. Surely their demeanor and actions speak better than words any day, or ought to do so.
Regards,
Scott
M
Mick
Guest
wil said:
Wil,
Firesides are always open to the public. You can usually go to the phone book and look under Baha'i Faith in the white pages to find a local phone number.
It's interesting that you would use marketing in an analogy. I have a degree in marketing and have spent over 30 years working in the field, designing sales and marketing plans. I am not much of a believer that lowest price will develop loyal customers and so design all sales presentations and POP advertising and sales brochures to show 'Features' and 'Benefits'. It is probably what I am doing subconciously when I explain principles of the Faith to seekers.
I thought I would pick out a few words and phrases that you used that just don't fit.
"this is it, that's the end, no modifications or changes..."
I am not sure just where this is said in the Bible or the Koran. There are references to the Alpha and the Omega by Jesus that people misconstrue to mean that he was the last phrophet. Again logic wouldn't allow that simply because He wasn't the first prophet. So maybe He was referring to his omnipotence, or omnipresence or His omnisciense or all of these for that matter, but not that He was the last. In fact, Jesus warned of coming as a Thief in the Night. He also said that the Comforter would come and explain all. He wasn't closing the door to the next revelation, it seems. The Jewish religion has in its members some of the great predictors in Isaiah and Daniel. Both told of the Messiah and both told of Baha'u'llah. They surely weren't professing that the Jewish religion was the last word of God.
You wrote:
"Now they all wrote and professed to be prophets and receivers and givers of the word and that theirs was the be all and end all..."
And maybe for a moment, that could be true. In the realm of God and eternity, our own existence is likened to the dot on the eye of a gnat. As the revelation of God progress through time, and as He has imbued in individuals that perfect spirit that we have recognized as the Manifestations and these Manifestations have shared with mankind the new and most recent message from God so that civilization could continue to advance. None have claimed exclusivity, that I am aware of, though many of their followers have made that claim for Them.
Baha'u'llah has told us of the eternal and everchanging religion of God, with, yes, we are told, the message from Baha'u'llah being the most recent. We know it dates back to Abraham and probably much earlier than that, with many names lost in the history of time. None are any better than another. They all were imbued with that same infallible perfectness of God. They were not God, Himself, but a perfect reflection of God. If one were to cast ones eyes on one of these Manifestations, one would feel they were looking on the Almighty, Himself. That is to say, if one were looking for the Almighty. As Christ said, "All that have eyes will see me and all that have ears will hear me." Or in other words, all that are looking or listening will recognize Him.
When you attend your first fireside, please ask a lot of questions. Anybody that is hosting a fireside will appreciate all and any questions you may have.
warmly,
Mick
M
Mick
Guest
Tao_Equus said:To Steven and Mick,
Religeon of any kind is a matter of faith, feeling and belief not logic. So is religeon illogical? Yes in many respects it is. But falling in love also can be seen as illogical. So can a gambling, drug, drink or any other addiction. Yet people continue to do all of them, usually blindly, justifying to themselves when required and refusing to accept the opinions of others that point out the illogical nature of their wants. So in many respects religeous belief is more akin to an addiction, and uses the same possibly false logic to justify a position.
You may say but we have the scriptures to lead us, they are our source of logic. But the Lotto promotes its rewards reminding you logicly you got to be 'in it to win it'. The drinks industry never promotes itself with a wife beating drunkard who's lost his job, his right to drive, his self respect and possibly his liver. No thats not logical in trying to sell something. So they gloss it up with young perfect bodies having a good time, all sober and joyous and smiling.
Now you might fairly say that there is no parallal between alcohol and faith in terms of its profundity, and I would agree. But in terms of health, IMHO, overdosing on religeon is a mental health issue clearly in the camp of addiction. When one is unable to stand back and look objectively and criticly at something they are being illogical. This is very very common amongst people with deep religeous convictions. In the Highlands of Scotland we say of a person who has deep held religeous beliefs that "he/she has 'got' the religeon", very much as we would say 'he/she has got the plague'. We are a pragmatic, even cynical, people maybe but there is an honesty in such an approach.
Trying to say that faith is logical is just not possible. Faith comes from the pit of your stomache, from your heart and from your souls connection to the greater whole. We have no true way to rationalise it. Thats not to say we should dismiss it either. In moderation it is beautiful, enriching and even exhilerating and is a fundamental part of the human psyche. Each of us, whether or not we belong to an organised religeon, will find our own flavour of comprehension, often similair but never identical to that of any other. You cant paint a masterpiece with a single colour and so I enjoy the profusion of expression I see. Art too often has no logic. There too it is not diminished by its absence.
Regards and respect
TE
P.S. yes I am aware that I almost always spell the word 'religion' wrong, typo's are my speciality tho
TE,
You take my breath away. Just let me say, that was one of the most unusual comparisons I have ever seen for religion and logic. It is 1:00 AM in the morning, and I am tired. Not only could and probably will rebut your arguments concerning spirit and logic, but also your comments on health, art, alcohol, and mental health leave me speechless as well. I can't imagine how you managed to say so little with so many words.
I will answer tomorrow, much clearer I hope.
Mick
Awaiting_the_fifth
Where is my mind?
Mick said:
Yes.
If god is logical, then prove he exists.
Mick said:
There is absolutely nothing logical about that, you are just repeating the dogma of your religion.
Mick said:
I must say, I have noticed this myself. I often find myself skimming over Baha'i posts because I dont want to read ten paragraphs of Abdul baha's writings.
I wouldn't say that it is irritating, but I do think it is sometimes misplaced in cross-faith discussions. People of other faiths do not recognise Abdul Baha as a prophet of any kind (or whatever Baha'is believe him to be, I apologise for my ignorance) and to simply quote his words is like saying
"This is what I believe and that's the end of it"
Which is fine, but it is practically impossible to continue a debate past this point.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Mick said:
Reading the parts which I have highlighted as a whole your attempt to belittle my opinions are a bit contradictory. They leave you breathless and speechless, touch on health, art, alcohol and mental health, (you forgot to mention my sojourn into dialectic nuance), and then say I have said nothing with too many words.
My words were not directed against you or any individual but related only to the question of logic in respect to faith. You dont reply equaly neutraly but attack me personaly. That I managed to weave in so many examples/features of illogical behaviour in people in so few words while remaining pertinent to the subject you first credit then dismiss. Then do an Arnold. ie: "I'll be back".
Whatever "features" and "benefits" your rejoinder will contain your marketing strategy of diss-ing the competition as a pre-emptive will not aid you in perseuading me that my thoughts are in error. If you wish to contend and convince me that faith is never illogical nor an addiction then please address the subject and refrain from attacking me personaly. Thank you.
Regards
TE
M
Mick
Guest
Tao_Equus said:
Agreed, TE. As I said I was tired and not very lucid.
I surely couldn't and wouldn't tell you or anybody that 'faith' is never illogical nor an addiction. I have seen many examples in my 60 years that would support you in your description of zealots. They are scarey because they are believers and will do anything, at times, to force their way. I was not referring to zealots when I made reference to logic and religion. There are illogical people that will profess anything. They will wind around in circles and call it an argument and take offense if others cannot follow their particular line of logic (illogic) Heck, yes, I have even messaged with some and seldom have interest in convincing these individuals of anything. They are typically rude, arrogant, and argumentative as well as zealous when it concerns their own opinion. I continue to message to these individuals simply because I know there are lurkers that participate, but act as an audience at a debate. Watching and learning from both sides.
Breakfast calls. I have no interest in offending you, but, I also have no idea what will actually be offensive to you as well.
Mick
P
Popeyesays
Guest
One can logically prove anything even a falsehood:
Main Entry: log·ic
Pronunciation: 'lä-jik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Middle French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logikE, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason -- more at [size=-1]LEGEND[/size]
1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : [size=-1]SYNTACTICS[/size] (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : [size=-1]RELEVANCE[/size], [size=-1]PROPRIETY[/size] c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>
"Logic" does not REQUIRE hard facts to operate.
Here's a short quote:
"There are four means of knowledge. Among scientists and philosophers a method of attaining knowledge is through the senses, principally through observation. Light shows us that light exists. Reality is limited to the perceptible thing; all that is not perceptible is subject to doubt.
Among the ancient philosophers the infallible way to knowledge was through logic. The different schools of logic weighed everything in the scales of cold scholasticism. As to religious people their criterion has ever been the sacred text which must be accepted as final. One is not allowed the slightest reflection. "The word of God," they say, "is truth." Inspiration is the fourth criterion. Occultists say, "I have had a revelation. This truth has been revealed to me." For them everything outside direct revelation is viewed with doubt. So we have indicated the four criterions: the senses, reason, the sacred text, inspirations. There is no fifth."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 93)
Regards,
Scott
Main Entry: log·ic
Pronunciation: 'lä-jik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Middle French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logikE, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason -- more at [size=-1]LEGEND[/size]
1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : [size=-1]SYNTACTICS[/size] (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : [size=-1]RELEVANCE[/size], [size=-1]PROPRIETY[/size] c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>
"Logic" does not REQUIRE hard facts to operate.
Here's a short quote:
"There are four means of knowledge. Among scientists and philosophers a method of attaining knowledge is through the senses, principally through observation. Light shows us that light exists. Reality is limited to the perceptible thing; all that is not perceptible is subject to doubt.
Among the ancient philosophers the infallible way to knowledge was through logic. The different schools of logic weighed everything in the scales of cold scholasticism. As to religious people their criterion has ever been the sacred text which must be accepted as final. One is not allowed the slightest reflection. "The word of God," they say, "is truth." Inspiration is the fourth criterion. Occultists say, "I have had a revelation. This truth has been revealed to me." For them everything outside direct revelation is viewed with doubt. So we have indicated the four criterions: the senses, reason, the sacred text, inspirations. There is no fifth."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 93)
Regards,
Scott