Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?

Awaiting_the_fifth said:
Yes.

If god is logical, then prove he exists.
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You've got it all wrong. I am surely not going to try to prove God's existence to a non-believer. There isn't a bigger zealot than one who professes they have "no belief".

Each of the billions of people that know He exists, have supplied their own proof. Why should you be different. Investigate for yourself and come to a conclusion and, I guess, live with it.


I must say, I have noticed this myself. I often find myself skimming over Baha'i posts because I dont want to read ten paragraphs of Abdul baha's writings.
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This is your loss. We were told to turn to 'Abdu'l-Baha' to learn to live the life. He is the Exemplar. Truth, not dogma. If you chose to investigate the life he led, it was exemplary.

I wouldn't say that it is irritating, but I do think it is sometimes misplaced in cross-faith discussions. People of other faiths do not recognise Abdul Baha as a prophet of any kind (or whatever Baha'is believe him to be, I apologise for my ignorance) and to simply quote his words is like saying

"This is what I believe and that's the end of it"

Which is fine, but it is practically impossible to continue a debate past this point.
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I agree that sometimes Baha'is do quote 'Abdu'l-Baha with definitiveness. It is because we accept his writings as definitive. 'Abdu'l-Baha was the son of Baha'u'llah. When Baha'u'llah passed away in 1892, we were told to turn to 'Abdu'l-Baha to learn to live the life. Baha'is should probably not assume that everybody would see the wisdom in his writings, though many do.

Concerning continuing the debate; I am sorry if this seemed a debate. I am not interested in winning a debate. In fact, I declare you a winner in whatever debate we may have had. I am simply interested in sharing knowledge concerning the Baha'i Faith and learning about your beliefs, so we can find those things that we have in common and expound on them.

Mick
 
Hi Mick,

Mick said:
I have no interest in offending you, but, I also have no idea what will actually be offensive to you as well.

Mick
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Simply put nothing will offend me personaly. If your intent in this statement is to draw highlight to you having been unable to pin down exactly what my beliefs are then I congratulate you, for neither have I ! However I am at peace with my ignorance, unconcerened that my spiritual journey be largely a solitary one. Infact in that I draw comfort that my own knowledge of 'God' is uncorrupted by dogma. My perception of all that is can only ever be a fragment of the totality for that totality is beyond the scope of any wo/man. I see many flaws in the worlds religions and believe such flaws to be an inherant property of mass-marketing our spirituality. It is not a product to be bartered on the open market. But thats precisely what religeons do. But I digress. I am relieved that some sense of moderation and mutual respect is the underlying principle behind the CR forum and allows us to discuss our individual approach to the subject in peace. Long may it continue!!

Regards

TE
 
Greetings, Tao! :)

Tao_Equus said:
[Religion] is not a product to be bartered on the open market. But thats precisely what religeons do.
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I would humbly suggest not all of them! (Granted, some may.)

In the Baha'i Faith specifically, what we endeavor to do is simply to present the facts about the Faith (and often our experiences with it) in order to let others investigate if they like, and draw their own conclusions.

Hopefully, there's really no attempt to "sell" the religion as such, and definitely no desire to tell others what they should believe (this being explicitly forbidden in our scriptures).

So I hope we can all continue to converse and learn from each other!

Regards, :)

Bruce
 
Hi Bruce :),

you are correct and I should have stated thats 'precisely what many religeons do'. Appologies for my mistake.


Regards

TE
 
I thought I would pick out a few words and phrases that you used that just don't fit.

"this is it, that's the end, no modifications or changes..."

I am not sure just where this is said in the Bible or the Koran. There are references to the Alpha and the Omega by Jesus that people misconstrue to mean that he was the last phrophet. Again logic wouldn't allow that simply because He wasn't the first prophet.
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He was the first born out of the dead, the "second Adam". In fact he was prophecied as coming back in Genesis 1. Are there any religions here that have an apocalyptic book showing fulfillment of the OT Day of the Lord prophecies? Thanks.

Gene 3: 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You [are] cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity/hatred/enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Fortunately, our own book of revelation is showing this fulfillment.

[size=+2]Reve 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. [/size]

 Reve 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

[size=+2]Reve 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: [/size]

[size=+2] [/size]
 
Greetings, In! :)

While I wouldn't call it "apocalyptic," The Book of Certitude, which is part of the Baha'i scriptures, explains that the Day of Judgement (aka Day of the Lord) refers to any time when a Divine Messenger (such as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah) is on earth, so that people are faced with the choice of whether or not to follow Him!

And yes, there are prohibitions in both the Jewish scriptures and the New Testament against altering scripture. But this clearly applies to humans, whereas God obviously has the right to alter it via His Divine Messengers, as is demonstrated by the fact that various Messengers (including Jesus and Baha'u'llah) have indeed altered laws and teachings given in earlier scriptures.

As to the various passages in Revelation you quoted, they're explained in a book titled Apocalypse Unsealed; for details, I refer you to the bahai-library.org web site. (Another book titled I, Daniel explains the prophecies there, BTW.)

Regards, :)

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
And yes, there are prohibitions in both the Jewish scriptures and the New Testament against altering scripture. But this clearly applies to humans, whereasGod obviously has the right to alter it via His Divine Messengers, as is demonstrated by the fact that various Messengers (including Jesus and Baha'u'llah) have indeed altered laws and teachings given in earlier scriptures.

As to the various passages in Revelation you quoted, they're explained in a book titled Apocalypse Unsealed; for details, I refer you to the bahai-library.org web site. (Another book titled I, Daniel explains the prophecies there, BTW.)
Oh--and an addendum:

The Book of Certitude explains that every Divine Messenger is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, and the seal!

Regards,

Bruce
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Thanks Bruce. Didn't God talk more against the Priesthood/Shepherds of His flock in the OT than any other "class" of people? The original "Firstborn" Nation of Israel were of course given the Covenant of "curses and blessings" providing they obeyed the Voice of God, but like Adam and Eve, they followed the Laws of Man instead of the Laws of God, which are now written in our Hearts and Minds through His Spirit.

 Jeremiah 50:5 They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that shall not be forgotten.' 6 My people hath been lost sheep; their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains; they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting-place.

Malachi 2:1 And now, to you [is] this charge, O priests, 2 If ye hearken not, and if ye lay [it] not to heart, To give honour to My name, said Jehovah of Hosts, I have sent against you the curse, And I have cursed your blessings, Yea, I have also cursed it, Because ye are not laying [it] to heart. 3 Lo, I am pushing away before you the seed, And have scattered dung before your faces, Dung of your festivals, And it hath taken you away with it. 7 For the lips of a priest preserve knowledge, And law they do seek from his mouth, For a messenger of Jehovah of Hosts he [is]. 8 And ye, ye have turned from the way, Ye have caused many to stumble in the law, Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, Said Jehovah of Hosts. 9 And I also, I have made you despised and low before all the people, Because ye are not keeping My ways, And are accepting persons in the law.
 
InChristAlways said:
He was the first born out of the dead, the "second Adam". In fact he was prophecied as coming back in Genesis 1. Are there any religions here that have an apocalyptic book showing fulfillment of the OT Day of the Lord prophecies? Thanks.

Gene 3: 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You [are] cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity/hatred/enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Fortunately, our own book of revelation is showing this fulfillment.

[size=+2]Reve 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. [/size]

Reve 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

[size=+2]Reve 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: [/size]
Click to expand...


As Bruce mentioned, The Kitab-I-Iqan, or The Book of Certitude, which is authored by Baha'u'llah, does explain the Day of the Lord. Read it and accept it or read it and reject it. But in a nutshell, He states, "The Day of the Lord has arrived".

You said, "Fortunately, our own book of revelation is showing this fulfillment."

How could a book, penned 1900 years ago, show fulfillment. Do you meant it explains how the fulfillment will pass? Surely, you don't meant that Revelations according to John, itself, fulfills anything, are you?

Regardless, in spite of the end days being an interesting topic and one I am willing to discuss with you, it is way off topic. You quoted a statement I wrote in answer to a statement from another respondent that said all the religions have stated "this is it, that's the end, no modifications or changes..."

I made reference to Christ stating that He was the Alpha and the Omega and since He wasn't the first prophet it would be ludicrous for us to assume He meant that He was the last prophet. We think He was referring to the imbued spirit, maybe what you call the Holy ghost. I don't know, because it seems there is a myriad of meanings for "Holy Ghost". Well, it would be good if you went back and read the whole post, maybe.

"You have really lost me with those quotes, though," Mick stated as he looked around mystified.
 
Mick said:
I made reference to Christ stating that He was the Alpha and the Omega and since He wasn't the first prophet it would be ludicrous for us to assume He meant that He was the last prophet.
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Hi Mick,

Or, Christ stating that He is the Alpha and the Omega may mean He is something entirely different than being a prophet.

peace,
lunamoth
 
InChristAlways said:
Thanks Bruce. Didn't God talk more against the Priesthood/Shepherds of His flock in the OT than any other "class" of people? The original "Firstborn" Nation of Israel were of course given the Covenant of "curses and blessings" providing they obeyed the Voice of God, but like Adam and Eve, they followed the Laws of Man instead of the Laws of God, which are now written in our Hearts and Minds through His Spirit.

Jeremiah 50:5 They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that shall not be forgotten.' 6 My people hath been lost sheep; their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains; they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting-place.

Malachi 2:1 And now, to you [is] this charge, O priests, 2 If ye hearken not, and if ye lay [it] not to heart, To give honour to My name, said Jehovah of Hosts, I have sent against you the curse, And I have cursed your blessings, Yea, I have also cursed it, Because ye are not laying [it] to heart. 3 Lo, I am pushing away before you the seed, And have scattered dung before your faces, Dung of your festivals, And it hath taken you away with it. 7 For the lips of a priest preserve knowledge, And law they do seek from his mouth, For a messenger of Jehovah of Hosts he [is]. 8 And ye, ye have turned from the way, Ye have caused many to stumble in the law, Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, Said Jehovah of Hosts. 9 And I also, I have made you despised and low before all the people, Because ye are not keeping My ways, And are accepting persons in the law.
Click to expand...

How does this refer to what Bruce wrote you? Bruce wrote, "And yes, there are prohibitions in both the Jewish scriptures and the New Testament against altering scripture. But this clearly applies to humans, whereas God obviously has the right to alter it via His Divine Messengers, as is demonstrated by the fact that various Messengers (including Jesus and Baha'u'llah) have indeed altered laws and teachings given in earlier scriptures".

I don't think anybody mentioned the priesthood of the past or the ministry of today, though there surely could be a comparison when you read the part about, ..."Ye have caused many to stumble in the law."

Whether God talked more about the "priesthood/shepherds of His flock..." than other people hasn't been determined. Maybe you could count how many references God makes to the priesthood and how many references God makes to other people when He is chastizing and get back to me. Otherwise, you're quotes have no premise in this argument. Shame on you for proselytizing.

You wrote, "they followed the Laws of Man instead of the Laws of God, which are now written in our Hearts and Minds through His Spirit."

I do not understand this statement at all, and I consider myself a pretty good reader of the English language. Maybe too many pronouns.

When you wrote 'our hearts' are you referring to mankinds of today vs mankinds of the past as referred to in Malachi? It would seem that is what you are making reference too. Ok, if that is the case then the capital H in Hearts is referring to God's Heart? and also Gods Minds, since the M in mind is capitalized. So would it read ...in our(meaning mankinds) Hearts (meaning God's heart) and Minds (meaning God's mind) ...Do you see what I mean? It don't make sense.

Maybe, I thought, you just were over zealous with your capitals when you chose to capitalize the H and the M, so now it would read ...in our(meaning mankinds) Hearts(again meaning mankinds) and Minds(meaning mankinds) through His Spirit. Are you saying that we know the "laws of God" through the His Spirit? If this is true, the ministry in the Christian religion seems to be heading for the unemployment line.

Do you see what I am saying, or is it, what you are saying? If righteousness is imbued in each of our Hearts and Minds, then we surely don't need a minister or priest. By the way, I am not saying that. As Baha'is, we recognize our responsibility to make good decisions based on what God, our country, and our neighbors/family expect of us. We also recognize that through prayer, recognition of God and good acts, we will be soulfully guided if we chose to listen and abide.

Please explain where you are coming from.

Mick

 
Maybe, I thought, you just were over zealous with your capitals when you chose to capitalize the H and the M, so now it would read ...in our(meaning mankinds) Hearts(again meaning mankinds) and Minds(meaning mankinds) through His Spirit. Are you saying that we know the "laws of God" through the His Spirit? If this is true, the ministry in the Christian religion seems to be heading for the unemployment line. :confused:

Do you see what I am saying, or is it, what you are saying? If righteousness is imbued in each of our Hearts and Minds, then we surely don't need a minister or priest. By the way, I am not saying that. As Baha'is, we recognize our responsibility to make good decisions based on what God, our country, and our neighbors/family expect of us. We also recognize that through prayer, recognition of God and good acts, we will be soulfully guided if we chose to listen and abide.

Please explain where you are coming from.
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I suppose I capitalized it to just draw emphasis to it.

I agree with you on Prayer, Love and Compassion.
I don't believe I could have come to God and the Bible without His Spirit leading me.
What spirit does God mean in the OT?

[size=+2]Gene 6:5 And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day; 6 and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself--unto His heart.

[/size] Joel 2:29 And also on the men-servants, and on the maid-servants, In those days I do pour out My Spirit [#07307].

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And Thy Holy Spirit take not from me.[size=+2]
[/size]
2 Corinthians 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ [#anointed] ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
 
Mick said:
You wrote, "they followed the Laws of Man instead of the Laws of God, which are now written in our Hearts and Minds through His Spirit."
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Hi Mick, I'm not sure what ICA meant by this, but when I read it I thought he was referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is the Christ nature, which is our true nature.

cheers,
lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Mick,

Or, Christ stating that He is the Alpha and the Omega may mean He is something entirely different than being a prophet.

peace,
lunamoth
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Such as the "SON"? We accept that. Actually, we see him as a Manifestation of God, which is a little more headier than a prophet, which if you were a Baha'i, I am sure you are aware of this.

I am going to make reference to 'Abdu'l-Baha, which, again, since you were once a Baha'i, you know that he is referred to as the Exemplar, and, Baha'u'llah's Will and Testament told us to turn to him to learn to live the life. He is also one of the three Central Figures of the Baha'i Faith along with The Bab and Baha'u'llah. He is considered the Successor of Baha'u'llah and the authorized Interpreter of His Writings.

He said, in Some Answered Questions, Chapter 58, ..."The Holy Manifestations have three conditions: one, the physical condition; one, that of the rational soul; and one, that of the manifestation of perfection and of the lordly splendor. The body comprehends things according to the degree of its ability in the physical world; therefore, in certain cases it shows physical weakness. For example: "I was sleeping and unconscious; the breeze of God passed over Me and awoke Me, and commanded Me to proclaim the Word"; or when Christ in His thirtieth year was baptized, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him; before this the Holy Spirit did not manifest itself in Him. All these things refer to the bodily condition of the Manifestations; but Their heavenly condition embraces all things, knows all mysteries, discovers all signs, and rules over all things; before as well as after Their mission, it is the same. That is why Christ has said: "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" [1] --that is to say, there has never been and never shall be any change and alteration in Me. "
I made the bottom part of it bold, in case you didn't want to read the whole paragraph. This can be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/ and then Some Answered Questions and then Chapter 58

So to summarize, we surely think that Jesus of Nazereth, Jesus the Christ, The Son, was more than just a prophet.
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Mick, I'm not sure what ICA meant by this, but when I read it I thought he was referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is the Christ nature, which is our true nature.

cheers,
lunamoth
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Really, I thought you believed in original sin. If you do, then how can the "Christ nature", which would be pretty sinless, be a persons true nature? I really get confused, sometimes, trying to follow the different Christian lines. I should have asked first, not assumed, do you believe in original sin?
 
Mick said:
Really, I thought you believed in original sin. If you do, then how can the "Christ nature", which would be pretty sinless, be a persons true nature? I really get confused, sometimes, trying to follow the different Christian lines. I should have asked first, not assumed, do you believe in original sin?
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I think you might have a simplistic understanding of original sin, and perhaps a simplistic understanding of Christianity as a whole. I will return later with a lesson for you, if you are truely interested in understanding what I believe.

cheers,
lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
I think you might have a simplistic understanding of original sin, and perhaps a simplistic understanding of Christianity as a whole. I will return later with a lesson for you, if you are truely interested in understanding what I believe.

cheers,
lunamoth
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I surely am.

Mick
 
Originally Posted by lunamoth
Hi Mick,
Or, Christ stating that He is the Alpha and the Omega may mean He is something entirely different than being a prophet.

peace,
lunamoth
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quote Mick:
Click to expand...
Maybe, I thought, you just were over zealous with your capitals when you chose to capitalize the H and the M, so now it would read ...in our(meaning mankinds) Hearts(again meaning mankinds) and Minds(meaning mankinds) through His Spirit. Are you saying that we know the "laws of God" through the His Spirit? If this is true, the ministry in the Christian religion seems to be heading for the unemployment line. :confused:.............

............Such as the "SON"? We accept that. Actually, we see him as a Manifestation of God, which is a little more headier than a prophet, which if you were a Baha'i, I am sure you are aware of this.................

........So to summarize, we surely think that Jesus of Nazereth, Jesus the Christ, The Son, was more than just a prophet.
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Hi Mick. Does your religion believe in the writings of the Apostle Paul?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And thy holy spirit take not from me.[size=+2]
[/size]
2 Corinthians 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ["anointed"] ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
 
A tidbit:

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. (Romans 8)
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I think this is referring to what some Christians call the indwelling of the Spirit. See, even here a kind of duality is said to exist in a human, our sin nature and the Spirit of Christ, living in us. This seems to me to be like what Baha'is believe, humans having a lower animal nature and a higher spiritual nature. Actually, I think that in Baha'u'llah's Teachings on Spirtual Reality three aspect of human nature are discussed, by Abdul Baha if I remember correctly. Our animal nature, our human nature, and our divine nature. Anyway, to me this explains how we are sinful, yet also can be holy. God would not call us to be holy if it were not possible.

peace,
lunamoth



peace,
lunamoth
 
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