Jaiket
Token Atheist
Providing that, unlike me, you believe such a being exists.
What do we know about God?
- Thread starter Jaiket
- Start date
Awaiting_the_fifth
Where is my mind?
I would suggest, nothing.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I would suggest that God in His Absolute Nature is unknowable, which is different from knowing nothing about God.
God also touches us in a personal relationship and from this we know that God is love.
Just what I believe,
lunamoth
God also touches us in a personal relationship and from this we know that God is love.
Just what I believe,
lunamoth
B
Bandit
Guest
Jaiket said:
i am not even going to feed this. so i have a better idea that works for me & i have an interest in.
why dont you teach me & others, how to believe & KNOW that God does not exist.
What we might perceive in the depths of our hearts, albeit 'through a glass,and darkly' ...
What we might discern by the study of philosophy ...
What we might discern through Revelation ...
Thomas
What we might discern by the study of philosophy ...
What we might discern through Revelation ...
Thomas
We "know" we are made in His image and likeness. We "know" there is nothing we can not accomplish (though not always for the better). We "know" we were originally not supposed to die, then our lives were limited to 900 years, then 120 years, then 70 years, due to our corruptness.
I say "know" because that is what scripture says, and not secular historical evidence...
Now, we know, the human body is designed to last at least 120 years (in a perfect environment), that part is based on scientific evidence. We know that our genes have "trigger" that trips after a certain time, that tells our body to stop regenerating at the youthful pace we started with. We believe it is nature's way for making room for the next generation.
Finally, we know we are a highly complex composite of organisms combined to support us, or our essense. And we still can't explain satisfactorily through science why or how we developed to this state and level.
The explaination of God is not detailed enough, and the explaination of Science is not yet sufficient.
Either way we are still dealing with mysteries...
my thoughts
v/r
Q
I say "know" because that is what scripture says, and not secular historical evidence...
Now, we know, the human body is designed to last at least 120 years (in a perfect environment), that part is based on scientific evidence. We know that our genes have "trigger" that trips after a certain time, that tells our body to stop regenerating at the youthful pace we started with. We believe it is nature's way for making room for the next generation.
Finally, we know we are a highly complex composite of organisms combined to support us, or our essense. And we still can't explain satisfactorily through science why or how we developed to this state and level.
The explaination of God is not detailed enough, and the explaination of Science is not yet sufficient.
Either way we are still dealing with mysteries...
my thoughts
v/r
Q
Hello Jaiket
You ask.."What do we know about God ?"
Isaiah 42:8 "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images."
Psalm 83:18 "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,You alone are the Most High over all the earth."
He expects us to take in an understanding about his nature by study of his words; for our own benefit.
Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of Jehovah God is the start of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Most Holy One is what understanding is."
John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."
He expects us to search him out without initial fear of his nature and of man.
Psalm 145:18 "Jehovah God is near to all those calling upon him,To all those who call upon him in trueness."
Psalm118:6 "Jehovah God is on my side; I shall not fear.What can earthling man do to me ?"
"Jehovah God Is Great in Power, his powers are unlimited and he has a myriad of powerful spirit creatures at his command......
Isaiah 40:15 "Look! The nations are as a drop from a bucket; and as the film of dust on the scales they have been accounted. Look! He lifts the islands themselves as mere fine dust"
Jeremiah 10:6 "In no way is there anyone like you, O Jehovah God. You are great, and your name is great in mightiness."
Psalm 103:20 "Bless Jehovah God, O you angels of his, mighty in power, carrying out his word,By listening to the voice of his word."
Gods own word has power, we are not to shrink away from him, but we are to make him known and he will know us....
Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart."
2 Chronicles 16:19 "For, as regards Jehovah God, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."
He has vast creative powers as seen in his intricate finely tuned balanced design and amazing creations .... from the micro to the macro. A witness to his existance:
Romans 1:20 " For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."
Jeremiah 10:12 "He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens."
A God of destructive power for the sake of the righteousness:
Exodus 14:24 "And the waters kept coming back. Finally they covered the war chariots and the cavalrymen belonging to all of Pharaoh’s military forces and who had gone into the sea after them. Not so much as one among them was let remain."
Isaiah 37:36 "And the angel of Jehovah God proceeded to go forth and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. When people rose up early in the morning, why, there all of them were dead carcasses."
A God of protection and one of hope for his followers:
Titus 1:2 "Upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting."
2 Peter 2:9 "Jehovah God knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off."
Luke 11;13 "Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him !"
A God with restorative powers and a giver of restorative powers:
Isaiah 25:8 "He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah God will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah God himself has spoken it."
Luke 15:30 "Then great crowds approached him, having along with them people that were lame, maimed, blind, dumb, and many otherwise, and they fairly threw them at his feet, and he cured them."
John 11:25 "Jesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life."
A God that does not want any to desert him and perish, a God of justice, a God of refuge, a God of wisdom, a God of knowledge, a God wise in heart.......God is love.
The bible is jam packed with displays of his attributes and gives a large insight about his nature, a nature that we at times misinterpret. The large amount of information about God is written for a reason, for us to seek out, learn and give out . Although the bible says that his ways are unsearchable at Psalms 145: 3 "Jehovah God is great and very much to be praised, And his greatness is unsearchable" This is regarding the limitless nature of God and our limited brain power....not being able to ever fully grasp God. logically, it is that his written word has given just enough about himself for us to get an understanding of his being and his purposes leading to our salvation.
You ask.."What do we know about God ?"
Quite a lot, because God uses his inspired word in the scriptures and he allows us to see an appropriate substantial amout about his nature:
He has a name, he makes himself seem personal to us so that we can relate to him.
Isaiah 42:8 "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images."
Psalm 83:18 "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,You alone are the Most High over all the earth."
He expects us to take in an understanding about his nature by study of his words; for our own benefit.
Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of Jehovah God is the start of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Most Holy One is what understanding is."
John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."
He expects us to search him out without initial fear of his nature and of man.
Psalm 145:18 "Jehovah God is near to all those calling upon him,To all those who call upon him in trueness."
Psalm118:6 "Jehovah God is on my side; I shall not fear.What can earthling man do to me ?"
"Jehovah God Is Great in Power, his powers are unlimited and he has a myriad of powerful spirit creatures at his command......
Isaiah 40:15 "Look! The nations are as a drop from a bucket; and as the film of dust on the scales they have been accounted. Look! He lifts the islands themselves as mere fine dust"
Jeremiah 10:6 "In no way is there anyone like you, O Jehovah God. You are great, and your name is great in mightiness."
Psalm 103:20 "Bless Jehovah God, O you angels of his, mighty in power, carrying out his word,By listening to the voice of his word."
Gods own word has power, we are not to shrink away from him, but we are to make him known and he will know us....
Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart."
2 Chronicles 16:19 "For, as regards Jehovah God, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him."
He has vast creative powers as seen in his intricate finely tuned balanced design and amazing creations .... from the micro to the macro. A witness to his existance:
Romans 1:20 " For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."
Jeremiah 10:12 "He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens."
A God of destructive power for the sake of the righteousness:
Exodus 14:24 "And the waters kept coming back. Finally they covered the war chariots and the cavalrymen belonging to all of Pharaoh’s military forces and who had gone into the sea after them. Not so much as one among them was let remain."
Isaiah 37:36 "And the angel of Jehovah God proceeded to go forth and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. When people rose up early in the morning, why, there all of them were dead carcasses."
A God of protection and one of hope for his followers:
Titus 1:2 "Upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting."
2 Peter 2:9 "Jehovah God knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off."
Luke 11;13 "Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him !"
A God with restorative powers and a giver of restorative powers:
Isaiah 25:8 "He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah God will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah God himself has spoken it."
Luke 15:30 "Then great crowds approached him, having along with them people that were lame, maimed, blind, dumb, and many otherwise, and they fairly threw them at his feet, and he cured them."
John 11:25 "Jesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life."
A God that does not want any to desert him and perish, a God of justice, a God of refuge, a God of wisdom, a God of knowledge, a God wise in heart.......God is love.
The bible is jam packed with displays of his attributes and gives a large insight about his nature, a nature that we at times misinterpret. The large amount of information about God is written for a reason, for us to seek out, learn and give out . Although the bible says that his ways are unsearchable at Psalms 145: 3 "Jehovah God is great and very much to be praised, And his greatness is unsearchable" This is regarding the limitless nature of God and our limited brain power....not being able to ever fully grasp God. logically, it is that his written word has given just enough about himself for us to get an understanding of his being and his purposes leading to our salvation.
Jaiket
Token Atheist
Eh...I'd rather not. I do not 'know' that there are no gods, and frankly, Bandit, if I was looking for debate I'd select a poster a little less hostile.Bandit said:
B
Bandit
Guest
Jaiket said:
well Jaiket, you can try to make it look like i am hostile, but i can assure that i am not. i can also assure that i am being very serious & peaceful & would like to know more about your beliefs & where you are coming from. not the belief of no gods but the belief of no God as in one God.
you can ask Brian & a couple of other members around if you think i am not being serious & sincere about this...because i am.
since you are saying you do not know (that sounds more agnostic than atheist) & your first post says you just dont believe God exists, then i would take that as you choose to not believe in God or maybe just dont care either way?
i am not interested in debating it either which is why i said i am not feeding this.
What do we know about God?
as much as we choose to know or not know & as much as we choose to believe or not believe.
you see, it is impossible for me to not know... & trust me i have tried many many MANY times to convince myself there is no God & can not do it & that is where i am coming from.
here you have all these other beautiful replies about God, but i am ot going to do that this time. i respectfully want to know what YOU have to say about God.
this is not the first time i have gotten no where trying to understand it.
pardon me for asking a sincere question.
Jaiket
Token Atheist
No problem. Sorry about my response. I thought you were being disingenuous.Bandit said:
I don't have much to say about the god of the bible. I have saw nothing meriting belief in this god, that is to say, that while I cannot say with certainty that there is no god I am comfortable with that conclusion.
Of course, I am always open to evidence, but I'm not particularly fond of the kind that has to be believed first seen later. I'm quite happy accepting that any potential deity will reveal itself to me if it desires I believe it exists.
If you're looking for specifics feel free to ask.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Jaiket said:
Hi Jaiket,
I enjoy your posts--glad to see you hanging around here again.
In a friendly way I ask you, What is the source of your being? What is the purpose of your life? This is just for contemplation and I am curious to hear your answer--not trying to lead you into saying Doh! It must be God!
cheers,
lunamoth
B
Bandit
Guest
Jaiket said:
very well then
i do have some questions on specifics. i will just put them one or two at a time.
1) do you ever feel like leaning more one way than the other about God & other times the other direction? for example today it seems possible, tomorrow it it seems impossible.
or is it just always neutral with no fluxuation.?
2) it seems there is a revealing request & evidence required. is that correct?
if so, what type of revealing would be required from you to know & be sure, & would you require more than one?
NOTE: i am thinking God could be revealed in different ways to different people & more than one way, depending on how receptive one is. (not sure)
if my questions do not make sense, i will try to reword them. if you feel like not answering any, that is fine. just let me know that you dont want to answer or dont know how to answer or you just dont know, so i am not hanging.
again, thank you for the replies, because this means a lot to me.
presser_kun
Well-Known Member
There are so many ways to take this question!
We -- collective we? As in the entire human race? -- or just those of us involved in this discussion?
Know -- as in "can be verified," "can be proven," "can be supported by evidence"? Or as in "seems right to me," "it's just an inner knowing," --
God -- Supreme being, force of nature, The Universe, Ground of all being, "the feeling in my heart," "the still, small voice" -- and so many more definitions/understandings of the term "god"?
What do we know about God?
The ideas above and many more can be combined in a multitude of ways. Answering seems a daunting task, but here's my stab at it.
We humans know God is, God exists.
God is beyond humans in scope.
That's about all we as a species can agree on.
Not everyone agrees that there God exists, of course. But all those that do agree with these two statements, I think.
Say any more than this about God and someone will disagree with you.
Many think God is a person; others, that God is a force.
God-is-a-person folks perceive/experience God as loving, jealous, protective, guiding, and more. God-is-a-force types say God is impersonal.
Some believe there is only one correct way to relate to God; that all other approaches to God are wrong.
Others believe that there are many ways to understand and approach God, and that other ways are enlightening, enriching, worthy of listening to and engaging.
Hm. These thoughts seem cold, sterile, lifeless. But does passion have a place here?
Only if you have something to defend.
Your thoughts?
peace,
press
We -- collective we? As in the entire human race? -- or just those of us involved in this discussion?
Know -- as in "can be verified," "can be proven," "can be supported by evidence"? Or as in "seems right to me," "it's just an inner knowing," --
God -- Supreme being, force of nature, The Universe, Ground of all being, "the feeling in my heart," "the still, small voice" -- and so many more definitions/understandings of the term "god"?
What do we know about God?
The ideas above and many more can be combined in a multitude of ways. Answering seems a daunting task, but here's my stab at it.
We humans know God is, God exists.
God is beyond humans in scope.
That's about all we as a species can agree on.
Not everyone agrees that there God exists, of course. But all those that do agree with these two statements, I think.
Say any more than this about God and someone will disagree with you.
Many think God is a person; others, that God is a force.
God-is-a-person folks perceive/experience God as loving, jealous, protective, guiding, and more. God-is-a-force types say God is impersonal.
Some believe there is only one correct way to relate to God; that all other approaches to God are wrong.
Others believe that there are many ways to understand and approach God, and that other ways are enlightening, enriching, worthy of listening to and engaging.
Hm. These thoughts seem cold, sterile, lifeless. But does passion have a place here?
Only if you have something to defend.
Your thoughts?
peace,
press
presser_kun said:
I am a soldier. I am also involved in my local community when I am not busy being a soldier. I am a carpenter, and a welder, and a plumber, and a sheetmetal smith. I can forge wrought iron, and make steel, I am a pipe fitter as well (it's a military thing...jack of all trades...).
But first and foremost I am a father of two (sons). They are grown now, and on their own. They serve their country and live their lives as they see fit, and I am "reduced" to the position of "advisor" as opposed to disciplinarian, provider and nurturer. They do not "need" me interfering in their lives.
But should they run into serious trouble, do you really think I would sit back and say "they are on their own"? Do you think I would not bring every bit of bearing and knowledge I have to do whatever it took to assist them in getting out of the quandry they might be in? Do you think I would not put my life before theirs? After all, children are all we really got.
I think God is of similar mind. Only we, are the "kids".
my thoughts
v/r
Q
Awaiting_the_fifth
Where is my mind?
Bandit said:
Maybe I can answer that one.
I will give you a description of the process I went through in abandoning my belief in God. It is not an easy process to get through (at least it was not for me) but sometimes, it has to be done.
Step 1)
First, make a logical, well considered decision that there is no God, or at least, based on the evidence available, it is unlikely that there is a God.
During this process it is essential that you ignore what your teachers told you and make a completely unbiased decision for yourself.
Step 2)
Now that you have logically decided that there is no god, you will need to accept your decision, emotionally. If you have been raised as a theist, the concept of God is deeply ingrained in your thought processes and will take some time to remove.
During this period, every time you think of God in your day to day life, (God help me, I wonder what heaven is like, etc) remind yourself that there is no God and this speculation is pointless and ludicrous.
This step may take a number of years, depending on your age.
Step 3)
It is now important that you forgive the people who indoctrinated you in the first instance, understand that they honestly believed that they were doing the right thing.
Without this important step, you will find yourself very bitter towards anything religious and it may be impossible to feel spiritual about anything for a long time.
Step 4
Look at the world around you and make up your own mind.
In my experience, it was only when I managed to get over my faith that I finally acknowledged that we know nothing about God except what we invent in our own minds.
Just my opinion.
Peace
ATF
presser_kun
Well-Known Member
Hi, Awaiting_the_fifth.
I'm deeply appreciative of your post describing the process you went through in abandoning your belief in God. I'm in the throes of doing just that, and find it rough going.
I've gone through and am still in each of your four steps. Think of the simultaneous download of four files, each moving at different speeds and you'll have a good picture of how I see my progress, but with one difference: the progress bar for each step moves forward and back depending on my mood and the circumstances of my life.
It's odd. The predictable pattern is that one turns to God in times of trouble, not so much when things are going well. I'm finding the opposite in my journey. When minor crises occur, I'm comfortable and confident in my decision to move under my own steam without crying out to a heavenly father. When things aren't going along too badly, I wonder if I've made the right decision.
For me, step 3 is particularly hard. The good, well-meaning people in my life are easy to forgive; the hard-nosed fundamentalists I don't know personally who persecute those who disagree with them are another matter.
So, thank you for what you said, but also for speaking up as well. So many voices here are helpful and encouraging, but you are the first atheist I've met who hasn't shouted at or disparaged the opinions of believers.
peace,
press
I'm deeply appreciative of your post describing the process you went through in abandoning your belief in God. I'm in the throes of doing just that, and find it rough going.
I've gone through and am still in each of your four steps. Think of the simultaneous download of four files, each moving at different speeds and you'll have a good picture of how I see my progress, but with one difference: the progress bar for each step moves forward and back depending on my mood and the circumstances of my life.
It's odd. The predictable pattern is that one turns to God in times of trouble, not so much when things are going well. I'm finding the opposite in my journey. When minor crises occur, I'm comfortable and confident in my decision to move under my own steam without crying out to a heavenly father. When things aren't going along too badly, I wonder if I've made the right decision.
For me, step 3 is particularly hard. The good, well-meaning people in my life are easy to forgive; the hard-nosed fundamentalists I don't know personally who persecute those who disagree with them are another matter.
So, thank you for what you said, but also for speaking up as well. So many voices here are helpful and encouraging, but you are the first atheist I've met who hasn't shouted at or disparaged the opinions of believers.
peace,
press
A
Angel{">i<"}tears
Guest
hi
I will tell you a real story happen here in my country
there is a man came to one of our Islamic gaffer and he asked 3 question, that no
one from world scientist could answer it:
he said:
“ 1- you people believe in god ,but where is he,
how you believe in something you can’t see it?
2- you people believe in destiny? but there is no destiny ,every thing in world is
coincidence?
3- you people believe that jinn made from fire ,so how god will punished it by fire
in the judgment day, and they have been made in fire??!!
Suddenly ,The Islamic gaffer slap the man in his face
The man surprise
And the gaffer said “1- tell me know did you know I’m going to slap you?? That’s what we called destiny.
2- of course you feel pain, can you characterize it to me blz ??
that what we called faith on god we feel it but can’t characterized it.
3- do you see my hand ?? it maid from dust and your face too , but you feel the pain? That’s all the answer you need
then the man became Muslim, and he is very happy now with his own family .
thanks all
peace
I will tell you a real story happen here in my country
there is a man came to one of our Islamic gaffer and he asked 3 question, that no
one from world scientist could answer it:
he said:
“ 1- you people believe in god ,but where is he,
how you believe in something you can’t see it?
2- you people believe in destiny? but there is no destiny ,every thing in world is
coincidence?
3- you people believe that jinn made from fire ,so how god will punished it by fire
in the judgment day, and they have been made in fire??!!
Suddenly ,The Islamic gaffer slap the man in his face
The man surprise
And the gaffer said “1- tell me know did you know I’m going to slap you?? That’s what we called destiny.
2- of course you feel pain, can you characterize it to me blz ??
that what we called faith on god we feel it but can’t characterized it.
3- do you see my hand ?? it maid from dust and your face too , but you feel the pain? That’s all the answer you need
then the man became Muslim, and he is very happy now with his own family .
thanks all
peace
Angel{">i<"}tears said:hi
I will tell you a real story happen here in my country
there is a man came to one of our Islamic gaffer and he asked 3 question, that no
one from world scientist could answer it:
he said:
“ 1- you people believe in god ,but where is he,
how you believe in something you can’t see it?
2- you people believe in destiny? but there is no destiny ,every thing in world is
coincidence?
3- you people believe that jinn made from fire ,so how god will punished it by fire
in the judgment day, and they have been made in fire??!!
Suddenly ,The Islamic gaffer slap the man in his face
The man surprise
And the gaffer said “1- tell me know did you know I’m going to slap you?? That’s what we called destiny.
2- of course you feel pain, can you characterize it to me blz ??
that what we called faith on god we feel it but can’t characterized it.
3- do you see my hand ?? it maid from dust and your face too , but you feel the pain? That’s all the answer you need
then the man became Muslim, and he is very happy now with his own family .
thanks all
peace
ROFLMAO
That was precious Angel! That was too good...
v/r
Q
A
Angel{">i<"}tears
Guest
thanks I hop to help someone to find the light of truth