Baha'i faith influenced off an other relgion?

[Postmaster]

I read up on a religion that came about 200 years after Christ from a Persian whose mother was Royalty!!!!!! He basically believed he was a prophet and was from the Zoroastrian faith. His religious ideas included Buddhism, and Christian ideas. The religion is called Manichaeism, which was more popular in the east. Relative of Baha'u'llah? Even had a visitaion off an angel. Why would God send a prophet 200 years after Christ? And Does the Baha'i faith accpet Mani as a prophet?

 

[Mick]

I read up on a religion that came about 200 years after Christ from a Persian whose mother was Royalty!!!!!! He basically believed he was a prophet and was from the Zoroastrian faith. His religious ideas included Buddhism, and Christian ideas. The religion is called Manichaeism, which was more popular in the east. Relative of Baha'u'llah? Even had a visitaion off an angel. Why would God send a prophet 200 years after Christ? And Does the Baha'i faith accpet Mani as a prophet?

This was the first I heard of Mani and Manichaeism, so I researched the writings using a program called "Ocean". There were a few references to Mani but only as historical references. None of the Central Figures, The Bab, Baha'u'llah, or 'Abdu'l-Baha ever mentioned Mani as coming from God.

I can't imagine why God would send a prophet 200 years after Christ nor would I question Him if He did. How could, we in our fallible human ways, ever be able to explain the reasons for God's actions. "We will know Him by His fruits..." It is how we are to judge all the Manifestations. I don't think I am sticking my neck out by saying Mani was not recognized by Baha'u'llah as a Prophet of God.

Concerning if he was a relative of Baha'u'llah, I'm curious why you would ask that? Because they both came from Persia? I don't know, really, unless Mani was related to Abraham, say, I wouldn't know how to find out.

Mick

 

[lunamoth]

From: Manichaeism

Mani sought to found a truly ecumenical and universal religion that would integrate into itself all the partial truths of previous revelations, especially those of Zoroaster, Buddha, and Jesus. However, beyond mere syncretism, it sought the proclamation of a truth that could be translated into diverse forms in accordance with the different cultures into which it spread. Thus, Manichaeism, depending on the context, resembles Iranian and Indian religions, Christianity, Buddhism, and Taoism.

At its core, Manichaeism was a type of Gnosticism--a dualistic religion that offered salvation through special knowledge (gnosis) of spiritual truth. Like all forms of Gnosticism, Manichaeism taught that life in this world is unbearably painful and radically evil. Inner illumination or gnosis reveals that the soul which shares in the nature of God has fallen into the evil world of matter and must be saved by means of the spirit or intelligence (nous). To know one's self is to recover one's true self, which was previously clouded by ignorance and lack of self-consciousness because of its mingling with the body and with matter. In Manichaeism, to know one's self is to see one's soul as sharing in the very nature of God and as coming from a transcendent world. Knowledge enables a person to realize that, despite his abject present condition in the material world, he does not cease to remain united to the transcendent world by eternal and immanent bonds with it. Thus, knowledge is the only way to salvation.

Not much like the Baha'i Faith in theology, although there do seem to be some parallels in its development:

Mani viewed himself as the final successor in a long line of prophets, beginning with Adam and including Buddha, Zoroaster, and Jesus. He viewed earlier revelations of the true religion as being limited in effectiveness because they were local, taught in one language to one people. Moreover, later adherents lost sight of the original truth. Mani regarded himself as the carrier of a universal message destined to replace all other religions. Hoping to avoid corruption and to ensure doctrinal unity, he recorded his teachings in writing and gave those writings canonical status during his lifetime.

St. Augustine was a Manichean before his famous conversion to the Catholic Faith.

lunamoth

 

[Postmaster]

Concerning if he was a relative of Baha'u'llah, I'm curious why you would ask that? Because they both came from Persia? I don't know, really, unless Mani was related to Abraham, say, I wouldn't know how to find out.

No because Mani's mother was royalty and as you would know Baha'ullah was of royal descent... And I can see connections between some of the theology of the 2 religions..

 

[Mick]

No because Mani's mother was royalty and as you would know Baha'ullah was of royal descent... And I can see connections between some of the theology of the 2 religions..

And there were 1600 years separating them with, I don't know how many dynasties. The simple connection of the word royalty is a little, what, a stretch?

Concerning the theology, according to Wikipedia, dualism, the thought that man is caught between a battle of good and evil energy forces, was the main theme of Mani's teaching. I surely wouldn't consider the teachings of Baha'u'llah ever approaching anything that could be conceived as dualism.

Probably anything that would have been similar between their teachings, would have come from the influence of Zoroaster and Christ. Baha'u'llah has taught that all the spiritual teachings from God, regardless of the Manifestation that espoused them, would be the same as past and future dispensations. It is the social message that progresses. So, any of the message Mani shared with his followers, that came from this Christian and Zoroastrian influence, would sound similar.

 

[Postmaster]

Hmmm.... Baha'ullah boasts of his family tree to Abraham I wonder if he was aware of Manichaeism and ancestry to Mani. Maybe he was more aware then you think. This religion died out and was consider heretical by Christians. Also as Baha'is on this forum are very informative and very intellectual I'm very curious as to why Mick never heard of this faith before, even as this was a big faith that went from west europe to the far east! And why Baha’is do not include Mani as a Prophet in there archives! Maybe it's because Manichaeism is a religion that died and is extinct today and even with modern efforts to bring it back failed!
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit

 

[iBrian]

It does need underlining that Manichaeism is a pretty obscure religion, Postmaster - as you stated, it rose briefly, then effectively died out. I'm pretty sure there are others as well that did so.

It would be somewhat unfair to expect any member of CR to have a comprehensive knowledge of such religions, nor for their own faith to labour particularly on the relationships they don't make claim to for such religions.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

>Why would God send a prophet 200 years after Christ? And Does the Baha'i faith accpet Mani as a prophet?

Very briefly, in the Baha'i view, He didn't, and we don't!

Especially since the time of Buddha, the line of Divine Messengers has been quite clear, consisting of only:
- Buddha,
- Jesus Christ,
- Muhammad,
- the Bab, and
- Baha'u'llah.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Postmaster]

Brian one of my last post has gone? Im sure it was at no offense?

 

[Postmaster]

No probs, I've been moderated.. Apologies to the Baha'is and moderators.

 

[Mick]

Brian, thank you for your support.

Postmaster,

I am pleased that you are surprised that there is something I don't and didn't know. Truth be told there are a few more things that I have yet to discover, I think. This would probably hold true with some of the other Baha'is as well. I realize this doesn't answer the "Why" question, but it is the best I can do. Hey, I think I am admitting there is something else I don't know as well.

What I do know a little about is the Baha'i Faith. So if you have any questions concerning this Great Cause, please come forth with them.

warmly,

Mick Zellar

 

[Postmaster]

May I add that Mani was a direct ancestor to Baha'ullah and also shared some same theological views.. Personally I believe Baha'ullah was aware of this..

 

[Mick]

May I add that Mani was a direct ancestor to Baha'ullah and also shared some same theological views.. Personally I believe Baha'ullah was aware of this..

I'm not sure what "a direct ancestor" would mean? I know the math says that about 1600 years would seperate them. Personally, I don't know who my ancestors were over 4 generations ago and I can't imagine how somebody that lived in 400AD (1600 years before me) could have any influence on me.

Believe what you may. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was imbued with a perfectly reflective spirit of God, as all the Manifestations were. This is how Baha'u'llah, Himself, spoke of it in Epistle To The Son of the Wolf

http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/ESW/ESW-1.html

found in paragraph 13.

"O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow..."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11)

So if He was aware of some sort of ancient ancestory or not really, in the eyes of a Baha'i, wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. We do not believe that He created the message He shared with the world. We believe that the message He shared with the world is the most recent message from God.

Mick

 

[iBrian]

May I add that Mani was a direct ancestor to Baha'ullah and also shared some same theological views.. Personally I believe Baha'ullah was aware of this..

Baha'u'llah may have been a distant cultural ancestor of Mani, but that doesn't imply a direct theological connection. If Baha'u'llah was aware of Manichaeism, then I should expect it would be referenced in the writings of the Baha'i faith, whether as a comparison, refutation, or general consideration for the region.

 

[Bandit]

i think all religions are influenced a little bit - by, from, in or to, each other. if not by another religion, at least by a culture or an ideal.


2 cents on that

 

[Mick]

i think all religions are influenced a little bit - by, from, in or to, each other. if not by another religion, at least by a culture or an ideal.


2 cents on that

Well, now, Bandit. That seems all inclusive. Just about covered whatever possibility that one could think of except one. We were talking about the messages from the Manifestations, which I had just professed, comes from God. We were not discussing religion, meaning the man made institution created to govern the thinking of the adherents. One is a totally different topic from the other.

The make-up of religion, in the past, has been influenced by many factors. Culture surely would be one of them.

Mick

 

[iBrian]

i think all religions are influenced a little bit - by, from, in or to, each other. if not by another religion, at least by a culture or an ideal.

Certainly, but Manichaeism seems to have been dead as a religious body at least 600 years before Baha'u'llah. Saying otherwise might seem a little like claiming that the Etruscans directly influenced Christianity.

 

[Postmaster]

It’s not tho Brian. Etruscans were a race or ethnic group. I'm comparing religion on religion! It's like comparing Judaism with Christianity sure there is a connection.... But the religious founder of whom I'm taking about comes from the same family line and also both try to put all religious in one workable system! However one of these religions doesn't exist today!what does it means to the Baha'i faith when it holds the latest message of God.

 

[Bandit]

Well, now, Bandit. That seems all inclusive. Just about covered whatever possibility that one could think of except one. We were talking about the messages from the Manifestations, which I had just professed, comes from God. We were not discussing religion, meaning the man made institution created to govern the thinking of the adherents. One is a totally different topic from the other.

The make-up of religion, in the past, has been influenced by many factors. Culture surely would be one of them.

Mick

Certainly, but Manichaeism seems to have been dead as a religious body at least 600 years before Baha'u'llah. Saying otherwise might seem a little like claiming that the Etruscans directly influenced Christianity.

oh.

i was not meaning the core & the root of Bahai or the institutions established nor the dead religions. rather more or less, the outer edge - like where the rubber meets road, but not changing the rim & lock nuts of its foundation.
since i do not really know the core & complete foundation of Bahai, i would not be able to say, except that the core itself must be different from other religions. it just seems to me that the foundation has to be the guiding principal. (if) that foundation is the message from the manifestations then that would the core.

does that sound right?

this is where i see them all influenced, because the rubber from all religions kind of criss cross & zig zag while traveling forward & making turns down the road, but the rims, hub & axle & lock bolts are different & never change. you can change the rubber as needed.

that probably does not makes sense, but it makes sense to me. i relate cars to belief & faith a lot.

where is the definition for the foundation of Bahai here at CR? i was looking but did not see it. that might help me some.
thank you

 

[Mick]

oh.


this is where i see them all influenced, because the rubber from all religions kind of criss cross & zig zag while traveling forward & making turns down the road, but the rims, hub & axle & lock bolts are different & never change. you can change the rubber as needed.

that probably does not makes sense, but it makes sense to me. i relate cars to belief & faith a lot.

where is the definition for the foundation of Bahai here at CR? i was looking but did not see it. that might help me some.
thank you

Interesting analogy, Bandit, and I, too, relate to cars. I think, though, to explain the tire and wheel analogy in a Baha'i perspective would go like this. We are told the essence of all the religions of God are the one and the same so the rims, hub, axle and lug nuts are the same and the tire or the rubber is different. Think of a model of car. When I grew up, all the wheels of one type of car, say a Chevrolet, were the same, a steel rim. The tires, though were different in looks by being black wall or white wall and even different manufacturers.

Baha'u'llah told us that all of the religions of man, that came from the teachings of one of the Manifestations, have an identical core or essence. This is the spiritual part of religion that we recognize. It is this essence, this hint of God, that allows forums like this one to function. We recognize a kinship and are trying to find just what it is that is similar. Our problems arise when we spend time on the tire. Since each of the religions were the result of the Progressive Revelation of God, according to Baha'u'llah, the theme, if I may, seems different. But it really isn't. All of the Manifestations, before sharing the new world changing message, the one each of us has learned to love and cherish, reiterated the previous messages.

For instance, when Moses gave us the Ten Commandants, the same Ten Commandants each and every jurisprudence system in the world is designed around, He reiterated the message of the Covenant as told to us by Abraham. The Ten Commandants didn't usurp the Covenant, but helped us learn to live better so we could fulfill the Covenant.

So to summarize, Bandit, it is the essence or the core (wheel) of each of the great religions that is shared and the outer dressings, the directions (tire) that is different.

Now understand, this is the Baha'i perspective. Concerning the foundation of the Baha'i Faith, I am sure if you searched some other Baha'i threads, you would find what you are looking for. If not, then I would have to understand what you are referring to when you mention the "foundation".

warmly,

Mick