Re: The Greatest Principle of Comparative Studies of Religions/Interfaith Dialogue
inhumility, et al:
If I am lengthy, it is because my advanced age and ‘failing’ sense of humility allow me other than brevity.
Mick: "I believe the original theme of this posting is that you should be able to find references in your Revealed Books. I am not suggesting that the Christian Religion is Man-Made, but the exercise was not to state your opinion or belief, but to answer the five questions with support from your Bible."
All that we assume or state as belief or knowledge is essentially our personal perspective of that which others have set as standards of doctrine and behavior within given spiritual denominations.
Ron Price’s offering: “As I see it…. everyone has assumptions and gathers his or her emotions around those assumptions….. For me, the core of my position I could express….. "my apologetics position"…..”
Ron is correct! If Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, had wanted to bring the major religions into discussion he would have found it necessary to employ an area large enough to accommodate approximately 3 billion delegates. Why; because each of us discerns our basic faith in as many divergent forms. Doctrine varies from denomination to denomination, sect to sect, individual to individual. There are over 1000 variations in the worship of Christianity alone. Islam? Well, I am aware of three basic groups, Sufi, Suni, and Shiite. In Judaism? And in each, doctrine varies, as does the Law, in each major group AND within the minds of the congregations! We each have, as Mick states properly, (in my personal opinion):
"Furthermore, know ye that God has created in man the power of reason, whereby man is enabled to investigate reality. God has not intended man to imitate blindly his fathers and ancestors." `Abdúl-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 291.
And “truth” is to each of us, as is beauty, in the eye of the beholder! May I say that we are all sick and tired of having the establishment make statements of faith, and decisions of doctrine, for us. We each have a mind endowed by God’s Holy Spirit and we have the freedom of action that allows us to agree with, or disagree with, even the most basic precepts of our chosen religions. One of my most personal disagreements within my Lutheran faith is the matter of ‘original sin.’
If anyone here believes that the Bible, or the Quran, or the Holy Scriptures, were the only means through which God revealed knowledge of His wisdom to man, I consider them sadly mistaken. You see, there is no one book, no one ‘word’, that contains all that man is to be informed of, and I refuse to be limited in scope of thought or acceptance of belief, to any one source.
The Physical, Moral, and Spiritual States of Man.
The physical state of man is as we see it in ourselves; a material vessel subject to the corruption of time and the world. In youth we are vigorous and strong, we agitate and seek to discover the earth and all its knowledge, but then we age; we dim, we tire, we grow weary. ‘Pot’ bellies become ‘obscene’, breasts sag, and we discover that as we believe Adam was sent into the physical world, cast out from paradise, we are all that Adam, all to suffer the same fate:
“And unto Adam He said: ‘Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying: Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt though eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it thou wast taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” (Genesis 3:17-21 Masoretic Text)
The moral state of man: Ethics and Morality vary from social order to social order, they would certainly vary from species to species, and from life-form to life-form!
Religions give us basic codes for moral action, and they often vary as do Judaic, Christian, and Islamic Law though they come from the same base. The basic foundations of our legal systems stem from ‘Theos nomos’, God’s Law! ‘Agios nomos’, man’s law, usually generates from those principles and adapts by necessity. But no one yet has accomplished a ‘perfect’ Law in heart, mind or spirit. In this sense, our moral state is chaotic at best. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are based on those Laws which we consider Deuteromic. (Genesis 20:1-14; Deuteronomy chapter 5.)
Our Spiritual state, however, deserves greater emphasis and understanding.
“Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul!” (Genesis 2:7 Masoretic Text)
“And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden…” (Genesis 2:9) “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, though shalt not eat of it…” (Genesis 2:16b)
Adam was immortal. He was a creation of God given an immortal soul (the breath of life) which emanated from God Himself and he ate of the tree of life which made him immortal…. “…lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” (Genesis 3:22) [Unhappily, this is not the time or place to debate the divergent cult myths concerning Genesis.]
The three major faiths I have mentioned, and others of which I am totally ignorant, suggest an afterlife. The supposition here is that in one form or another, physical or spiritual, we will inherit an afterlife to which we are deserving. In Lutheranism as well as in the vast majority of Christian doctrines, it is agreed that man possesses an immortal soul. His spiritual state, however, is one that remains incomplete. That discussion is best taken up in the next issue.
What is the State of Man After Death?
I insist that definition be noted here. To this person; paradise, heaven, the Garden of Eden, the Kingdom, nirvana… whatever, all denote the same plane of existence, a state of afterlife and (possibly) immortality.
“The Quran insists upon belief in the life after death.” (Surah 5:70; 23:38)
Christianity believes in an afterlife, but as late as Paul the resurrection was a Spiritual resurrection, not one of the physical body.
“For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-54 RSV)
It is as late as the Maccabees that a doctrine concerning a physical resurrection was adopted under the cruelties of Antiochus Epiphanes. (See 1 Maccabees Chapter 1: NRSV Study Bible) Lutherans, as well as Catholics, believe in the physical resurrection as stated in the Apostles Creed as well as in the Nicene Creed:
“I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.” (The Lutheran Book of Worship)(The Small Catechism: The Book of Concord)
Jesus, however, disagrees on this point. Let us visit his teaching on the woman with seven husbands. A woman’s husband has died. Under Jewish Law his brother may take her as wife. Unfortunately for this woman, he had seven brothers, and she worked her way through all seven before the last also perished.
“After them all, the woman died. In the resurrection therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? But Jesus answered them, ‘You are wrong because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” (Matthew 22:27-30 RSV)
Here Jesus also refers to the resurrection by teaching: “And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:31-32 RSV)
Oddly enough, the Jewish orthodoxy in the first century believed that angels were neither male or female, that they were as God created them, both male and female… in other words, neuter! This also, I believe through study, meditation and life-experience, was the nature of man in the beginning. Make of it what you will, but I refer you to the scripture Jesus referred to, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:26-27: RSV; Masoretic Text) And due to the Creator’s nature, I believe that He is a spiritual entity and not a physical human being.
“God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24 RSV)
It is my belief from the Holy Scriptures and the New Testament that we will ascend in a spiritual resurrection into the Kingdom, and there, in God’s garden, will take up the task of the fallen Adam in an effort to reach a state of perfection (whatever that may entail). Amazingly, one may refer to the writings of Theophilus of Antioch, the 6th Bishop of that church. Circa 170-188 A.D. the Bishop wrote in his, Ad Autolycum, this very same awareness; that each of us upon reaching that state, would ascend into Paradise, the Garden, and there take up the task of the original Adam in gaining knowledge and wisdom and eventually reaching a state of grace, or perfection.
In the end, Jesus the Christ assures us of our task here on the earth.
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (Matthew 6:19-21)
The Object of Man's Life and the Means of its Attainment.
I have read in your posts notations that refer to compassion, justice, caring for others, loving the stranger, etc. Well, this is all very nice. It certainly can have the effect of making one feel warm and cuddly inside, but it most assuredly has nothing to do with the basic purpose in life of spiritually guided souls. The great prophets of all religious groups give us the same cautions and directions. The fact that they bring us the same message helps to assure us of their validity. But their insights are only guidelines toward the ultimate goal of man, Redemption!
In most religions it is the following of God’s Law and living a righteous life that leads toward salvation. And I must note that even within the dawning doctrines of Christianity, into the late 2nd century, this held true. Theophilus quotes Ezekiel 18:21-23 in his, Ad Autolycum, which is an amazing revelation for this period in time.
“If the lawless man is converted from all the lawless deeds he has done and keeps my commandments and performs my ordinances, he may truly live and will not die; all his iniquities which he has done will not be remembered, but by the righteousness which he has done he will live; for I do not desire the death of the lawless man, says the Lord, so much as that he may be converted from the evil way and live. (3.11) (Theophilus of Antioch: Rick Rogers)
Today, in our modern Christian theology, there is but one way to salvation and that is through acceptance of Christ Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. Redemption comes through true repentance and a conversion of mind, body, and soul to trust and confidence in Jesus the Christ. I could add a hundred claims made by that figure, including that of John’s Gospel in which Jesus states that no one ascends to the Father save through him, but I choose another as my personal text.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24 RSV)
The Operation of the Practical Ordinances of the Law in This Life and the Next.
I believe we have noted this in other parts of my offering. The Law is essential to a well governed, civilized society. I would then only encourage Christian participants to note Jesus’ own words.
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17-18 RSV)
This may be accomplished individually or universally, but I would not think that the Law would apply in the Kingdom… would it be necessary?
Sources of Divine Knowledge.
For myself, the Holy Spirit is the benefactor of life and the source of ALL knowledge. Surely the prophets came with God’s word to enlighten mankind, but they too were a tool. The source of their wisdom was also of the Holy Spirit. Where wisdom is spoken of in the New Testament, the Spirit is co-joined with it. (KJV Luke 2:40)
“Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom whom we may appoint to this duty.” (Acts 6:3 RSV)
Theophilus echoes the words of Holy Scripture when he states: “It was the [the logos], spirit of God and beginning and Sophia (wisdom) and power of the most high, who came down into the prophets and spoke through them about the creation of the world and all the rest.” (2.10) (Theophilus of Antioch: Rick Rogers)
Without further dissertation, I must end my offering at this point. I do not wish to extend my responses to four hours. However, I would like to address a fellow sojourner.
inhumility :"...I have not yet found any other faith that would convince me that they are better guided and truth is more with them….. The purpose of this exercise is that one could clearly explore the truth between the religions of the world under a common, simple yardstick and follow the best religion one finds among them."
I do not believe that you will find that which you are seeking in this manner. No simple yardstick is sufficient to measure the minds of mankind adherent, yet differing in their ‘translations’, to any given religion or spiritual state. You and you alone can only witness to yourself and the wisdom imparted to you, by the Spirit, as an individual soul. Aside from doctrine and theological assumption, ‘life experience’ may be the greatest ‘religious’ experience of all. I thank you for your invitation and pray I have not overstayed my welcome but the nature of your post demanded lengthy response.
“No one has yet accomplished a ‘perfect’ religion or spiritual statement. I believe it is because we have become so diverse in our nature as individuals.” (Victor G)
Victor G
i have no "spiritual uncomfortability" though, perhaps i do since i'm not really sure what this is meant to be indicating. a general sense of spiritual lacking or some such?
