Gospel of Judas

Just as their are discrepancies in the 66 canonized books...like the death of Judas...seriously don't we think acts would say he fell while he hanged himself and then his guts spilled out if it were so? So while we have these things that don't fit here and there by this and that author or editor...so in the apocrypha we find some truth. I for one am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.

As for the stories of Jesus as a child other than the Magdalene information what do we have for the first 30 years? Some birthday gifts and his parents leaving him in the city and then later finding him in discussion at the temple? That passage alone indicates that he wasn't above a little disobedience in his youth.

I see Jesus growing into his Christ Consciousness and understanding of his (and our) oneness with the omnipresence. Whether the thought in the Gospel of Magdelene has any basis in reality or not, I don't doubt that as he discovered his skills he made misjudgements along the way. Don't we think the man of love could have figured out another way to make changes at the temple than tossing over tables? After all he stopped a stoning with contemplation and one comment...
 
Some birthday gifts and his parents leaving him in the city and then later finding him in discussion at the temple? That passage alone indicates that he wasn't above a little disobedience in his youth.
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Maybe it indicates his authroity, even at a young age, even that above of his own parents. He was challenging the authorites in the temple.
 
The Story of Jesus Christ can be likened to the drama of the innocent soul in the world...

The Disciples, and all those who came into contact with Jesus, play their part in the unfolding of the drama, willingly or unwillingly. Remember that Judas betrayed Christ once, Peter betrayed him three times ... and as John tells us, none of them really understood until the Resurrection, and even then cried that they were unfitted to the task. It was the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that enabled them, to continue the mission entrusted to them...

And we, if we call ourselves Christian, betray Him daily, in a thousand little ways...

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The gnostic tendency in 'Judas' (if such is the case) would be enough to discount it in orthodox eyes. The Christian teaching is of a one-to-one relationship with God, both objectively and subjectively, God is at once the Absolute Transcendant Being - and Abba - who dwells as an Immanent Presence and the Foundation of our being ... the cosmology of the disparate gnostic views all hold in common that God is not the First Cause nor Father of the World, and that innumerable determinate stages separate man from the beatific vision.

Like Path of One says, the gnostics put a gulf between creature and creator ...

Didymus - I would argue that the gnostic version of sin and the Christian version are diametrically opposed and not parallel - in the gnostic view creation is evil in essence; in the Christian view creation is essentially good, but fallen ...

Evil, suffering and privation were never part of God's purpose.

+++

Wil - I would say that what Christ did he did for the benefit of others - so the ejecting of the money lenders from the temple was done in such a way to indicate the nature of the desecration that was taking place. Of course, there is then the parallel with ascetic practice and the clearing of the interior temple which hopefully not quite as violent, requires great strength of will and fortitude...

Nothing Christ said or did was happenstance.

+++

The childhood of Jesus is often the object of Christian meditation - we hold as axiomatic that Jesus never had to learn who he was, and we do not hold with what appears to us as the rather schizophrenic notion of 'Christ consciousness' - He knew instinctively what He needed to know, and knew it when He needed to know it (this is probably another discussion - it involves the Third Person of the Trinity and thus knocks 'Christ consciousness' off the board).

What Christ learnt in those anonymous years was not the nature of his Divinity, but the nature of His humanity ... to be 'not one', to be other than, at distance from, apart from ... what it was like to be cold, hungry, tired and frightened, even, probably, to hitting your thumb with a hammer ...

What it means to know 'I don't know'.

+++

What Irenaeus and other writers spoke of, with regard to the gnostic sects, was the point that their teaching does not originate within Christianity - the gnostics were heavily influenced by Persian and various other mysticisms - and that they insisted thy had the truth of it, whereas the Disciples got it wrong - which suggests that Christ really wasn't any good at what he did ...

I would also add that the Greek philosophers (Stoics notably) likewise dismissed the gnostics for basically ill-thought out philosophy.

Having said that, the Christian faith is not anti-gnosis (how can it be?) but rather points to the true gnosis - a gnosis of 'being', not a gnosis of 'knowing'. As I say, when it come to 'the weighing of the heart against a feather' we will be judged for who we are, not for what we know.

Or as my old Hermetic guru once observed, "your notebooks will get to heaven before you do."

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
The Story of Jesus Christ can be likened to the drama of the innocent soul in the world...

The Disciples, and all those who came into contact with Jesus, play their part in the unfolding of the drama, willingly or unwillingly. Remember that Judas betrayed Christ once, Peter betrayed him three times ... and as John tells us, none of them really understood until the Resurrection, and even then cried that they were unfitted to the task. It was the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that enabled them, to continue the mission entrusted to them...

And we, if we call ourselves Christian, betray Him daily, in a thousand little ways...

+++

The gnostic tendency in 'Judas' (if such is the case) would be enough to discount it in orthodox eyes. The Christian teaching is of a one-to-one relationship with God, both objectively and subjectively, God is at once the Absolute Transcendant Being - and Abba - who dwells as an Immanent Presence and the Foundation of our being ... the cosmology of the disparate gnostic views all hold in common that God is not the First Cause nor Father of the World, and that innumerable determinate stages separate man from the beatific vision.

Like Path of One says, the gnostics put a gulf between creature and creator ...

Didymus - I would argue that the gnostic version of sin and the Christian version are diametrically opposed and not parallel - in the gnostic view creation is evil in essence; in the Christian view creation is essentially good, but fallen ...

Evil, suffering and privation were never part of God's purpose.

+++

Wil - I would say that what Christ did he did for the benefit of others - so the ejecting of the money lenders from the temple was done in such a way to indicate the nature of the desecration that was taking place. Of course, there is then the parallel with ascetic practice and the clearing of the interior temple which hopefully not quite as violent, requires great strength of will and fortitude...

Nothing Christ said or did was happenstance.

+++

The childhood of Jesus is often the object of Christian meditation - we hold as axiomatic that Jesus never had to learn who he was, and we do not hold with what appears to us as the rather schizophrenic notion of 'Christ consciousness' - He knew instinctively what He needed to know, and knew it when He needed to know it (this is probably another discussion - it involves the Third Person of the Trinity and thus knocks 'Christ consciousness' off the board).

What Christ learnt in those anonymous years was not the nature of his Divinity, but the nature of His humanity ... to be 'not one', to be other than, at distance from, apart from ... what it was like to be cold, hungry, tired and frightened, even, probably, to hitting your thumb with a hammer ...

What it means to know 'I don't know'.

+++

What Irenaeus and other writers spoke of, with regard to the gnostic sects, was the point that their teaching does not originate within Christianity - the gnostics were heavily influenced by Persian and various other mysticisms - and that they insisted thy had the truth of it, whereas the Disciples got it wrong - which suggests that Christ really wasn't any good at what he did ...

I would also add that the Greek philosophers (Stoics notably) likewise dismissed the gnostics for basically ill-thought out philosophy.

Having said that, the Christian faith is not anti-gnosis (how can it be?) but rather points to the true gnosis - a gnosis of 'being', not a gnosis of 'knowing'. As I say, when it come to 'the weighing of the heart against a feather' we will be judged for who we are, not for what we know.

Or as my old Hermetic guru once observed, "your notebooks will get to heaven before you do."

Thomas
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hi Thomas. As always your learned discussion of Christian mysticism is valued. Your speaking of a gnosis of being as opposed to a gnosis of knowing resonated with me. Guess I'd call myself a "neo-gnostic" in that rather than holding to the original gnostic notions particularly the false dichotomy of matter-spirit, while devaluing matter, being of panentheistic orientation to me the true gnosis is waking up to the full radiance of being which is definitely not of knowing or intellect per se and which is a "gnosis" which sees that Spirit/God manifests in this very life in and through the material universe. To use Christian parlance-we to do the work(s) required to come to realize the grace that has always and will always "save" one. take care, earl
 
The childhood of Jesus is often the object of Christian meditation - we hold as axiomatic that Jesus never had to learn who he was, and we do not hold with what appears to us as the rather schizophrenic notion of 'Christ consciousness' - He knew instinctively what He needed to know, and knew it when He needed to know it (this is probably another discussion - it involves the Third Person of the Trinity and thus knocks 'Christ consciousness' off the board).

What Christ learnt in those anonymous years was not the nature of his Divinity, but the nature of His humanity ... to be 'not one', to be other than, at distance from, apart from ... what it was like to be cold, hungry, tired and frightened, even, probably, to hitting your thumb with a hammer ...

What it means to know 'I don't know'.
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Am I correct in understanding that you are saying he decided to forget his spirituality at times on earth...not that he was growing in his understanding of it? The way I read this you are indicating he always new his connection, potential and abilities but occasionally decided to resort to more material methods. I see his life right upto the end as a continuous accelerated understanding of who and what was potential...he spent his time in the desert, he spent time learning what he could do and in the garden he was still asking for this burden to be removed...until not my will but thy will.
the cosmology of the disparate gnostic views all hold in common that God is not the First Cause nor Father of the World, and that innumerable determinate stages separate man from the beatific vision.
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Does cosmology mean the removal of first cause? Who indicates they are first? Isn't the universe and the placement of same part of creation?
And we, if we call ourselves Christian, betray Him daily, in a thousand little ways..."your notebooks will get to heaven before you do."
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good stuff, I die a little daily...if I don't I'm headed the wrong way...

and I'd be interested in contemplating that other schizophrenic discussion...
 
Hi and Peace:)

This is probably one of my last posts for a while (got to be elsewhere), and I know it is not very sophisticated, but the words here are on my heart to say while I can. I could not just say this anywhere, but since this is the Christianity board, I will go ahead.

The discussion of the "Gospel of Judas" has naturally brought us around to the topic of Gnosticism. From what I can glean, there are different ideas about what the term "gnostic" really means--in a dictionary, there would probably be definitions 1, 2, and maybe more (if not, perhaps there should be).

I am compelled to speak here concerning "Gnosticism" with a capital "G". I see this as the sort of thinking that troubled Paul so much. Aside from the idea that flesh and all matter was considered evil, there was something else equally as disturbing being taught at the time of the early Christian church--that being the time-worn concept of "secret knowledge". "Secret knowledge" necessarily excludes someone. According to The Gospel of John, Christ taught that anyone, i.e. "whosoever believeth" is automatically privvy to the knowledge of the Spirit of God. He promised! In this Spirit, we grow in knowledge of the same.

While God may choose to blind certain people to certain things for His own divine purpose, the Spirit of the Word assures me that He will not forsake them--ever! We do have the freedom to choose to be blind, and we can add a message that is self-serving and exclusive to others, but I believe that this sort of action is in direct conflict with sincere desire to know God and to put Him first.

InPeace,
InLove
 
hi InLove. No, I don't believe there are any exclusive clubs when it comes to the Divine. May wherever you go, you go with God. Nice to hear from you again. earl
 
hi InLove. No, I don't believe there are any exclusive clubs when it comes to the Divine. May wherever you go, you go with God. Nice to hear from you again. earl
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2. The Path of Christ
The path of Christ is somewhat difficult, but with patience, will, and humility one makes progress... It involves tribulation and suffering, without which it is not possible for one to find the path open for the benefit of his soul. - Saint Raphael
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This was written before the Ottoman army invaded the Greek island of Rhodes in the mid 1400s. Some troops made there way tot he Church saint Raphael was at capturing him and his Deacon Saint Nicholas, they were asked to give up there faith and join the Ottoman army, however kept refusing. They were taken into separate rooms and tortured death whilst an other 12 year old girl Saint Irene was burnt alive in a giant pot and her parents were made to witness, they died instantly of heart attacks. The only reason there relics were found was because most people in a village in Rhodes were having dreams of these saints who would tell them what happened to them in the 1950s. A Sceptic news reporter decided to investigate using the information he got off the villagers dreams and he found relics. He went blind after smelling the beautiful scent coming from saint Raphael’s relics and went into communication with him. Ever since a church was built in there honour and they are probably the greatest healers of illness of people in Greece and Cyprus.


I think Christianity is the hardest path to God.
 
earl said:
hi InLove. No, I don't believe there are any exclusive clubs when it comes to the Divine. May wherever you go, you go with God. Nice to hear from you again. earl
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Hi earl--it is nice to hear from you, too. I know you don't believe in exclusion. I still remember your signature:).

Thanks for the blessing--right back at ya!

InPeace,
InLove
 
Hi Wil -

I sat for some time last night composing a reply, and was dissatisfied after three lines. So I followed my practice of leaving it, and letting it settle.

Then InLove posted her reply.

That's what I'd been waiting for.

Don't forget I'm Catholic, and as such Jesus Christ is God, the Second Person of the Trinity. According to the formula of Chalcedon:

"begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the Godbearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten,
recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence,
not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ."

The Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of 'kenosis' (Phillipians 2:7) talks of the 'emptying of self' which the Incarnate God undertook to become man - not the semblance of a man, nor even a divine man, but man, he surrendered his Godhead to experience the world and temporality as man experiences it ... hence the scriptural references to fear, sorrow, thirst, pain ... and death.

The miracles of His ministry were accomplished, at his will (for the will of the Son is the will of the Father), by the Holy Spirit ... He was led where the Spirit led Him, even unto death.

Remember also that on the Cross he tasted the final bitterness of death and desolation, with his agonised cry 'why hast thou forsaken me?' - the truth, of course, is that He was not, like we are not, forsaken by the Father, but that if He experienced our doubts and fears before that final veil...

Thomas
 
InLove ...

You have touch it - far from exclusivity, the Mystery of Christ is the means of His inclusivity - not that we become like him, but that He became like us.

What's more you know it ... you don't know how you know it, but you do, because you know it at the level of being, not by reason nor intellect nor wisdom nor logic ... and this is true gnosis ... Union.

In the Catholic Liturgy, at the Consecration of the Eucharist, the celebrant says: "Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit."

We are with Him, because He is with us, He shares our pain, our grief, our fears, our tears ... He bears the burden of our anger, of our recrimination, without utterance, without complaint, he sorrows at the darkness that surrounds us when we look for Him, the cruel and tragic arbitrariness of the world ... and He waits ...

Draw strength from Him from whom all good things flow...

"For I am convinced that there is nothing in death or life, nothing in all creation that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord."
Saint Paul

God bless,

Thomas
 
Hi Postmaster -

I think Christianity is the hardest path to God.

Because it demands all of you.

Thomas
 
Apologies for the somewhat sentimental aspect to my recent posts ... but the hour draws nigh...

Today is Maunday Thursday, from the Gospel:

'Mandatum novum do vobis ... '

'A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.'
John 13:34-35

I was going to post a verse from John 13 as a meditation piece, but every verse is so resonant and so redolent, I am at a loss to make a choice.

Thomas
 
InLove said:
Hi and Peace:)

This is probably one of my last posts for a while (got to be elsewhere), and I know it is not very sophisticated, but the words here are on my heart to say while I can. I could not just say this anywhere, but since this is the Christianity board, I will go ahead.

The discussion of the "Gospel of Judas" has naturally brought us around to the topic of Gnosticism. From what I can glean, there are different ideas about what the term "gnostic" really means--in a dictionary, there would probably be definitions 1, 2, and maybe more (if not, perhaps there should be).

I am compelled to speak here concerning "Gnosticism" with a capital "G". I see this as the sort of thinking that troubled Paul so much. Aside from the idea that flesh and all matter was considered evil, there was something else equally as disturbing being taught at the time of the early Christian church--that being the time-worn concept of "secret knowledge". "Secret knowledge" necessarily excludes someone. According to The Gospel of John, Christ taught that anyone, i.e. "whosoever believeth" is automatically privvy to the knowledge of the Spirit of God. He promised! In this Spirit, we grow in knowledge of the same.

While God may choose to blind certain people to certain things for His own divine purpose, the Spirit of the Word assures me that He will not forsake them--ever! We do have the freedom to choose to be blind, and we can add a message that is self-serving and exclusive to others, but I believe that this sort of action is in direct conflict with sincere desire to know God and to put Him first.

InPeace,
InLove
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Just make certain you are back by morning...young lady.
 
I ditto Scarlett...love the education...

Commandment Thursday....

And what a wonderful meditation piece...I will be using it as a silent mantra during footwashing this evening...(not the latin...) (although it would be interesting to teach to the congregation as a chant while the footwashing is going on...)
mandatum novum do vobis ut diligatis invicem sicut dilexi vos ut et vos diligatis invicem
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So if second cause, G-d in the flesh, has the ability to feel thirst, hunger, anger, fear, sorrow, pain...why are we denying him other human traits...like developing skills, temporarily forgetting his path, and in the course of time moving growing from his humaness to his righteous understanding?

When I refered to his time at the temple being showing a little disrespect it wasn't to the rabbis but to his parents. From recollection they were in town for some event...thought their child was headed home with another family, and then when they found he wasn't they had to return to get him... Now we aren't just talking about turning around and driving back, they'd lost their son...surely we can imagine their mindset...so he knew where he was supposed to be, he knew what was expected of him...and his remark to his parents was nothing short of back talk... You should have known where I was...yikes...I'd have surely got the back of the hand for that one...and not been able to sit down for a week for not being home before the lights came on...
 
Thomas said:
Apologies for the somewhat sentimental aspect to my recent posts ... but the hour draws nigh...

Today is Maunday Thursday, from the Gospel:

'Mandatum novum do vobis ... '

'A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.'
John 13:34-35

I was going to post a verse from John 13 as a meditation piece, but every verse is so resonant and so redolent, I am at a loss to make a choice.

Thomas
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Excellent! So, I posted all of John 13, in the Happy Easter thread. :)
 
wil said:
...
but I think about Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Thomas Keating...in any three years of teaching these guys wrote hundreds of pages...gave hundreds of speeches and had thousands of pages written about them...and we base all of Jesus work on very few pages, out of 66 books...seems obvious there is more written somewhere of value to increase our limited understanding of this man...and tis a true shame we have nothing that was actually written by him or even during his lifetime...or within 3 decades of his life on earth!
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Amazing isn't it...these conventional writers create pages of thought. Jesus wrote nothing. Deepak will be forgotten within a generation or two of his death. Jesus is still in our minds. Jesus is in the minds of Islamists too, and Jews (who turn a blind eye, which even that acknowledges the Jesus). All this from a few pages of a book (2000 years later)....:rolleyes:

v/r

Q
 
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