Why?

[Cage]

I understand now, that when salvation is concerned, God is only providing for us, what we cannot provide for ourselves. (Through Jesus)

My next question is: WHY is it nescessary; you know, a blood sacrifice for atonement? Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Why does God demand it?

Couldn't he have just forgiven us w/o sending his son to suffer, and die?

Seems barbaric, and cruel to me. Why is he so blood thirsty?

(Still fighting with God)

~Cage~

 

[Dondi]

For one, the Christian doesn't come to God in is own righteousness, for they are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Jesus lived a perfectly sinless life, which is the demand God has for all of us, and which is something that we failed, and will fail, to do. So we have to rely on His righteousness to "perfect" us. He put to death sin on the cross, so that sin will not dominate us. Equally important is His resurrection, which because of His sinlessness, He was able to rise from the dead (sin is what caused the Fall and death, both spiritual and physical, in man). We are to be raised up in HIM at the resurrection. He conquered death for us and we can now be reconciled with God through His death, burial, and resurrection. I'm not sure of the mechanics of all that, but that's the theological summary.

I don't know how Christ's blood plays in our salvation exactly. Maybe there is some kind of purification element in His Blood that causes life in us. I fail to see how it could physically. But the bible does say that the life of the flesh is in the blood.

 

[Cage]

I don't get it; doesn't it seem a bit 'sadistic' that in order to appease God, something completely innocent must be killed/sacrificed? From Old testament to New, this has been a common theme, and demand from God.

I'm having trouble understanding the 'why' behind this. How can a God that is said to be Love, demand that something 'innocent' die in order to appease him?

This doesn't seem very 'loving' to me; it seems sadistic, and I don't know if I can honor a God that demands that innocent life be taken in order to stay in his good graces.

Working out my salvation with hang up, after hang up./shrug

~Cage~

p.s. I'm just being honest, so please don't flame me for what I'm thinking.

 

[Quahom1]

I don't get it; doesn't it seem a bit 'sadistic' that in order to appease God, something completely innocent must be killed/sacrificed? From Old testament to New, this has been a common theme, and demand from God.

I'm having trouble understanding the 'why' behind this. How can a God that is said to be Love, demand that something 'innocent' die in order to appease him?

This doesn't seem very 'loving' to me; it seems sadistic, and I don't know if I can honor a God that demands that innocent life be taken in order to stay in his good graces.

Working out my salvation with hang up, after hang up./shrug

~Cage~

p.s. I'm just being honest, so please don't flame me for what I'm thinking.

To give up what one holds most dear is a daily affair with man. You must let your children go, and let them become parents themselves one day. If you love someone, and could, you would give up your life for them. There is no sadistic nature in a human who pushes another out of the way of a speeding vehicle, only to be struck themselves (and killed). There is nothing sadistic about a Sergent throwing himself on a grenade in order to save his platoon.

There is nothing sadistic about a Pro football player, giving up his lucrative career to join the military, then give up his life for his country.

If you love someone or something, you will do anything and everything to keep them "safe".

Jesus really loves us, dude...

v/r

Q

 

[Postmaster]

All of us have to die, all of us have to suffer pain! It's not that God likes this to happen to us, trust me he doesn't but its part of the animation of life and without it we can't experience all the good stuff. If everything was perfect then we would have nothing to look forward to. Jesus represents someone who was willing to pay the highest price to show us the way and that is the very love God has for us. And God too can be shown in us through this principle.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

WHY is it nescessary; you know, a blood sacrifice for atonement? Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Why does God demand it?

Because the Bible bloody says so. Have faith and just do what you're told.

Does the whole blood sacrifice thing make any sense to you? I mean, those dudes back then were obsessed with blood because they thought it contained the life force. The OT says that God enjoys the smell of burning fat and blood off the sacrificial alter. Does that sound like how you think of God? The simplest answer is usually the best. The simplest answer is that we've evolved beyond the idea of blood sacrifices. We create God to suit ourselves, so why live an anachronism? Plus, the real reason for the sacrifices was so the priestly elite could enjoy a regular barbeque at the people's expense. It was an early tax system that actually worked pretty well.

See, this is the problem with trying to make sense out of the religious practices of ancient people. These old ideas are worthwhile within an ancient context, but we need a modern God for a modern time. A God that doesn't serve the political aims of emperial expanionism would be nice right now.

I'm going to stop before I start to rant.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Here's a related question: Why would the Logos, the underlying creative principle of the universe, the meta-concept that makes everything work: 1. Be a specific personality. 2. Need to manifest as a God/man avatar. 3. Need to be executed as part of an initiation, and as an atonement for "sin"?

Chris

 

[Bandit]

Because the Bible bloody says so. Have faith and just do what you're told.

Does the whole blood sacrifice thing make any sense to you? I mean, those dudes back then were obsessed with blood because they thought it contained the life force. The OT says that God enjoys the smell of burning fat and blood off the sacrificial alter. Does that sound like how you think of God? The simplest answer is usually the best.

I'm going to stop before I start to rant.

Chris

i agree with this part.
they way the institutions have declared the dogma for centuries concerning this, it is flawed & does not add up. it also does not add up in the way they present the scriptures either.

 

[Bandit]

I understand now, that when salvation is concerned, God is only providing for us, what we cannot provide for ourselves. (Through Jesus)

My next question is: WHY is it nescessary; you know, a blood sacrifice for atonement? Why did Jesus have to pay the price? Why does God demand it?

Couldn't he have just forgiven us w/o sending his son to suffer, and die?

Seems barbaric, and cruel to me. Why is he so blood thirsty?

(Still fighting with God)

~Cage~

start with Cor. 15 & see if that helps guide you into something different than what most people will say about this.

 

[Cage]

Because the Bible bloody says so. Have faith and just do what you're told.

I don't think that would be a very wise stance, man. We have minds of our own, and I think we have them for a reason...To think for ourselves.

Does the whole blood sacrifice thing make any sense to you?

Not at all!

I mean, those dudes back then were obsessed with blood because they thought it contained the life force. The OT says that God enjoys the smell of burning fat and blood off the sacrificial alter. Does that sound like how you think of God?

Well, I like the smell of a steak grilling on the barbie, but I'm not God, lol! My idea of God is that he/she/it is the loving creative force of the universe, but that's just 'my' idea of God; the Bilble paints a very different picture.

The simplest answer is usually the best. The simplest answer is that we've evolved beyond the idea of blood sacrifices. We create God to suit ourselves, so why live an anachronism? Plus, the real reason for the sacrifices was so the priestly elite could enjoy a regular barbeque at the people's expense. It was an early tax system that actually worked pretty well.

Yes, but the Christian populace says that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and that it is infallible. If this is true, then we must accept all it's principles and practices, even if they're ancient. The sacrifice Jesus made is just as ancient in context, as the law of moses, imo.

See, this is the problem with trying to make sense out of the religious practices of ancient people. These old ideas are worthwhile within an ancient context, but we need a modern God for a modern time. A God that doesn't serve the political aims of emperial expanionism would be nice right now.

I'm going to stop before I start to rant.

Chris

So, you are saying that the Bible is completely outdated, and that we should create a new God that suits our modern views better?

If this is the correct stance, then why should I believe in a God at all?

Here's a related question: Why would the Logos, the underlying creative principle of the universe, the meta-concept that makes everything work: 1. Be a specific personality. 2. Need to manifest as a God/man avatar. 3. Need to be executed as part of an initiation, and as an atonement for "sin"?

I have no idea about the 2nd & 3rd questions, but if there is infact a God, then wouldn't you think that he/she/it would have some sort of personality, or is God such an abstract concept that you think he/it/she has absolutely no character at all?

I'm just asking

~Cage~

 

[Cage]

start with Cor. 15 & see if that helps guide you into something different than what most people will say about this.

I'd very much like to know your pov, Bandit. Are suggesting I take a look at '1Corinthians chapter 15'?

Tell me your pov, and I'll see if It agrees with me, and makes sense after I read this chapter...

~Cage~

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Cage,

Let me go have a smoke and think about it.

Chris

 

[Cage]

To give up what one holds most dear is a daily affair with man. You must let your children go, and let them become parents themselves one day. If you love someone, and could, you would give up your life for them. There is no sadistic nature in a human who pushes another out of the way of a speeding vehicle, only to be struck themselves (and killed). There is nothing sadistic about a Sergent throwing himself on a grenade in order to save his platoon.

There is nothing sadistic about a Pro football player, giving up his lucrative career to join the military, then give up his life for his country.

If you love someone or something, you will do anything and everything to keep them "safe".

Jesus really loves us, dude...

v/r

Q

I fail to see how this relates to the fact that God has demanded blood sacrifice from the Old Testament to the New. My question is 'Why' does he demand such a thing?

 

[Cage]

All of us have to die, all of us have to suffer pain! It's not that God likes this to happen to us, trust me he doesn't but its part of the animation of life and without it we can't experience all the good stuff. If everything was perfect then we would have nothing to look forward to. Jesus represents someone who was willing to pay the highest price to show us the way and that is the very love God has for us. And God too can be shown in us through this principle.

I agree with the whole pain thing, and that Jesus paid the highest price to 'show' us the way, but I fail to see how this equates to the love of God. Where does God fit in the mix, and what does this have to do with Gods demand for blood?

~Cage~

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Cage,

O.K., these are just ideas: I really don't care about theology or dogma.

What is God of Itself? Heck, I don't know. If God, of itself, has a personality, it's surely not something we can quantify or even comprehend from our perspective. So I say that we create God to suit our ends, but what I mean is that we make the emperor's clothes, dress him up, and then pretend that He was always that way. Look at the OT concepts of God: Those guys couldn't agree on what It was any more than we can. Is God Love, or a specific cultural war god? The dueteronomists had one idea, the ecclesiasts another.

All I can say is this: If we can agree that God is the most intelligent thing in the universe...indeed the intelligence of the universe, then there are certain interpolations that we can make about what a supreme intelligence would be like. For one thing, It wouldn't need to be worshipped. Secondly, It wouldn't be jealous, vengefull, or feel the need to micromanage its creation. It wouldn't create anything intrensically flawed. And It wouldn't create something that exists simply for Its amusement.

Now, you can go to the Bible and find that the authors, some of the authors, understood all of those premises. But others were interested in purely political motivations: Nation building, cultural identification, xenophobia, social subjegation...etc. So you can't read the Bible as a cohesive single expression of what God is or what God's plan is. You gotta pick through it and seperate particularist ambition from universal truth. The same is true of any scripture.

Chris

 

[Bandit]

I'd very much like to know your pov, Bandit. Are suggesting I take a look at '1Corinthians chapter 15'?

Tell me your pov, and I'll see if It agrees with me, and makes sense after I read this chapter...

~Cage~

my POV is something i am sure you have never heard of before & i am pretty sure you will never meet another who sees it like it do. it took me 3 years of deep study & prayer to figure out WHY.
so give yourself at least that much time.

i hold an orthodox jewish view of God & that God is ONE SPIRIT, not 3 or 2. i also hold an orothodox jewish view on the Messiah. the difference being that i believe Jesus did fulfill what he was supposed to as the Messiah & that Jesus is everything the BIble says he is including God manifested in the flesh.
I believe the DEATH BURIAL & RESURRECTION was necessary. i live without the guilt & church dogma attached.

is God just? does He demand justice? is He fair or is God a liar?
would God be a just God if he required blood & death of someone innocent?
does God impute sin from one man onto another? does God impute human sin onto himself?
does each man account for his own?

in all of my studies, this is one of the deepest caverns & many- MANY paradoxes stem from this. my biggest thing is, people ask this question all the time, but i dont think they are sincere when they ask. so i keep it short & simple until i see the sincerity & honesty in the questions. IOW & IMHO- i dont think very many people really search the scriptures. it easier to just fall in line with tradition & church dogma.

one other thing to keep in mind- that which is born of flesh is flesh & that which is born of spirit is spirit. we are instructed to compare spirit with spirit & flesh with flesh. this is very important to know the instructions on how to study when we study.

if i give you my whole view at once, it would be a 300 page book. there is no written dogma for what i believe concerning WHY. so, a little here & a little there & let's see where it heads. we may end up taking this somewhere else because i am not going to debate the scriptures in a forum like this with 20 different views bouncing around.

no no. i know better.

 

[Cage]

Chris, I've always thought it was unwise to accept all scripture as absolute truth.

I think most Christians will tell you that you cannot 'pick and choose' from the Bible, but that's like saying in order to be an American, you must accept, agree with, and support everything our government does. I understand what you are saying, Chris, and I agree to a point.

We need to separate the wheat from the chaff, and find in the texts what resonates 'truth' within ourselves. The Bible may be 'somewhat' outdated, but it plays a major role in how I myself believe. Jesus inparticular, I admire that man more than any other, and I fully embrace what he stood for. I don't know if this fact is enough for me to be considered a Christian, but I do Love him.

Although, it is obvious that I struggle with 'mainstream' Christian thought, and dogma.

~Cage~

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, let me be clear. I don't think the Bible is outdated at all. Some people still want to make a war god out of God. Others embrace a loving God. Some people still want to embrace the idea of devolution from a perfected state, others see themselves evolving toward an enlightened state. Some people see Christ as the ultimate idol, others just dig his philosophy. I see Christ as a concept, not a person. Whatever works, man. You gotta examine your own emotional needs and motivations. Well, I do.

Chris

 

[Cage]

my POV is something i am sure you have never heard of before & i am pretty sure you will never meet another who sees it like it do. it took me 3 years of deep study & prayer to figure out WHY.
so give yourself at least that much time.

My studies come more in 'pockets', lol! I get extremely involved, and then I get frustrated, and put it all down for a while. I'm not sure if 3 years would be enough considering my tendencies.

i hold an orthodox jewish view of God & that God is ONE SPIRIT, not 3 or 2. i also hold an orothodox jewish view on the Messiah. the difference being that i believe Jesus did fulfill what he was supposed to as the Messiah & that Jesus is everything the BIble says he is including God manifested in the flesh.
I believe the DEATH BURIAL & RESURRECTION was necessary. i live without the guilt & church dogma attached.

I can already see that you have an interesting view, Bandit. I'm still uncertain as to how I view Jesus. Is he man, or God, or both? What does his death, burial, and resurrection mean to me? Still searching....

is God just? does He demand justice? is He fair or is God a liar?
would God be a just God if he required blood & death of someone innocent?
does God impute sin from one man onto another? does God impute human sin onto himself?
does each man account for his own?

All questions I have asked myself, but to no avail.

in all of my studies, this is one of the deepest caverns & many- MANY paradoxes stem from this. my biggest thing is, people ask this question all the time, but i dont think they are sincere when they ask. so i keep it short & simple until i see the sincerity & honesty in the questions. IOW & IMHO- i dont think very many people really search the scriptures. it easier to just fall in line with tradition & church dogma.

I search, but I'm not sure how 'devoted' I am to study. There is alot in the scriptures, and I have read them through, but it's not an easy task to make sense of all of it.

one other thing to keep in mind- that which is born of flesh is flesh & that which is born of spirit is spirit. we are instructed to compare spirit with spirit & flesh with flesh. this is very important to know the instructions on how to study when we study.

What do you mean by this?

if i give you my whole view at once, it would be a 300 page book. there is no written dogma for what i believe concerning WHY. so, a little here & a little there & let's see where it heads. we may end up taking this somewhere else because i am not going to debate the scriptures in a forum like this with 20 different views bouncing around.

no no. i know better.

I prefer a little at a time. If you had written a 300 page essay, I would have read for 20 minutes, and probably put it down, lol! (Just being honest)

Although, I 'would' like to hear counter arguments, as I would get a better understanding from hearing all sides.

~Cage~

 

[Bandit]

My studies come more in 'pockets', lol! I get extremely involved, and then I get frustrated, and put it all down for a while. I'm not sure if 3 years would be enough considering my tendencies.

well, then allow your whole life & when it is time you will know. nothing wrong with putting something down for awhile & coming back to it later with a fresh outlook.

What do you mean by this?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](1 Cor 2:13&14)[/FONT]

see also John 3:6

Although, I 'would' like to hear counter arguments, as I would get a better understanding from hearing all sides.

~Cage~

i wont argue the scriptures like that. i suppose if it is something i have never heard before then it would be interesting.
if there is a one on one debate or maybe 3 voices going at once, that is fine. but i find many arguments at once to be repetitive, obnoxious & unproductive.

I can already see that you have an interesting view, Bandit. I'm still uncertain as to how I view Jesus. Is he man, or God, or both? What does his death, burial, and resurrection mean to me? Still searching....

it shows me there is hope after this life of being resurrected into immortality. so when i die & I AM BURIED, i dont have to wonder about things & that God has an eternal resting place for me with Him, through Jesus. this is exciting for me