did bahai prophets receive divine revelations?

[imranshaykh]

Hi again!

For the record, I agree with the responses Amy has given.

As to why why we tend to ignore Islamic traditions (except those specifically quoted by our Central Figures), the reason is very simple!

Because even Muslims themselves can't agree on which traditions (Hadith) are and aren't valid!

So because we have available the full--and completely reliable--texts of the Baha'i scriptures, it makes eminent sense to rely upon these instead of the clearly questionable (if not downright unreliable) traditions of another Faith....

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

Thanks for your time to respond.

Sure, there are traditions and there are fabricated traditions. But would you say that all traditions on a subject are fabricated?

For example, if there were 1,000 traditions about the Mahdi from all sources, all of which say the same thing, would one say then that the traditions are fabricated?

Or for example, if there about more than 100 traditions which talk about the finality of prophethood and messengership of the Holy Prophet of Islam all of which say the same thing irrespective of which source they come from, would you say that all these traditions are fabricated?

Or when 1/3 rd of Quran is about the Day of Judgement and more than 1,000 traditions corroborating what is said in the Quran in terms of having a physical resurrection, whould you say that all these traditions are fabricated?

Surely, would'nt labelling all traditions (except quoted by Bahai sources who came after 1,000 years after the death of the 11th Imam) as fabricated would appear as escapism?

This post is not about concepts or arguing about right and wrong. let me clarify this lest I be accused of prejudice. But it is about arguing about the validity of traditions in understanding the words of God.

The Quran does not explain the stories of all prophets - and even for those who it does, it does not explain the entire story. Neither does the Bible. how then do we have the details of the words of the prophets? Where have these stories and historical incidents which we quote so liberally come from? They come from traditions.

Muslims pray Namaz. We have the Bab, Bahaullah and Abdul Baha who recited Namaz as Muslims did. However is the Namaz explained in quran. No. Just the order for Namaz appears. How did we learn how to pray Namaz and its nuances. From traditions.

So traditions are an important source which need to be understood. Sure, there are fabricated traditions and our scholars have painstakingly sifted through these - in a scientific manner and not in an arbit or ad hoc manner.

Incidentally, despite the huge number of traditions, it would be difficult to find more than 50 odd traditions which have been quoted in Bahai books - most of which are unreferenced. Are we so selective in acepting traditions that we choose only those traditions that suit us and discard the rest?

How would you feel if I told you that such and such things exist in your books without giving you the page number and edition? or I told you that such and such Bahai author says this...Surely you will ask me for the correct page number. Surely you will question the authority and antecedent of the author which I have quoted. I am simply doing the same.

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

Imran wrote:

Incidentally, despite the huge number of traditions, it would be difficult to find more than 50 odd traditions which have been quoted in Bahai books - most of which are unreferenced. Are we so selective in acepting traditions that we choose only those traditions that suit us and discard the rest?

Comment:

Hadiths traditions were not printed in books originally with page references as we have many today...although many today are online... They were verbally passed down and later collected and some remained verbal and some were only known to a few.

For Baha'is oral traditions are specualtive and hold little weight unless they were part of our Writings and there are some references to these.

Note how the subject of "traditions" is referred to in the Kitab-i-Iqan:

"Although We did not intend to make mention of the traditions of a bygone age, yet, because of Our love for thee, We will cite a few which are applicable to Our argument. We do not feel their necessity, however, inasmuch as the things We have already mentioned suffice the world and all that is therein. In fact, all the Scriptures and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account. So much so, that were a person to ponder it a while in his heart, he would discover from all that hath been said the mysteries of the Words of God, and would apprehend the meaning of whatever hath been manifested by that ideal King. As the people differ in their understanding and station, We will accordingly make mention of a few traditions, that these may impart constancy to the wavering soul, and tranquillity to the troubled mind. Thereby, will the testimony of God unto the people, both high and low, be complete and perfect."

- pp. 237-238 Kitab-i-Iqan

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran wrote:

Incidentally, despite the huge number of traditions, it would be difficult to find more than 50 odd traditions which have been quoted in Bahai books - most of which are unreferenced. Are we so selective in acepting traditions that we choose only those traditions that suit us and discard the rest?

Comment:

Hadiths traditions were not printed in books originally with page references as we have many today...although many today are online... They were verbally passed down and later collected and some remained verbal and some were only known to a few.

For Baha'is oral traditions are specualtive and hold little weight unless they were part of our Writings and there are some references to these.

Note how the subject of "traditions" is referred to in the Kitab-i-Iqan:

"Although We did not intend to make mention of the traditions of a bygone age, yet, because of Our love for thee, We will cite a few which are applicable to Our argument. We do not feel their necessity, however, inasmuch as the things We have already mentioned suffice the world and all that is therein. In fact, all the Scriptures and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account. So much so, that were a person to ponder it a while in his heart, he would discover from all that hath been said the mysteries of the Words of God, and would apprehend the meaning of whatever hath been manifested by that ideal King. As the people differ in their understanding and station, We will accordingly make mention of a few traditions, that these may impart constancy to the wavering soul, and tranquillity to the troubled mind. Thereby, will the testimony of God unto the people, both high and low, be complete and perfect."

- pp. 237-238 Kitab-i-Iqan

Sure, I have read this...but does it necessarily mean or imply that only those traditions which exist in the Iqan be accepted and the rest discarded?

Without traditions, our interpretation of the Quran will remain specultative for even Bab and Bahullah did not comment on the entre Quran....

Regards
imran

 

[arthra]

Sure, I have read this...but does it necessarily mean or imply that only those traditions which exist in the Iqan be accepted and the rest discarded?

Without traditions, our interpretation of the Quran will remain specultative for even Bab and Bahullah did not comment on the entre Quran....

Regards
imran

We would say I think that the Qur'an is to be seen in spiritual terms admitting the historical aspects to it but appreciating many of it's verses in allegorical ways rather than literally...so part of that would mean we would not accept some of the interpretations some of which are based on Hadiths traditions that are very literal like for instance the splitting of the moon or the Night Journey for instance.

Many Qur'anic verses like Bible verses are found in our Writings... I think we may give the Bible more credit as an inspired Holy Scripture than most Muslims do however.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

We would say I think that the Qur'an is to be seen in spiritual terms admitting the historical aspects to it but appreciating many of it's verses in allegorical ways rather than literally...so part of that would mean we would not accept some of the interpretations some of which are based on Hadiths traditions that are very literal like for instance the splitting of the moon or the Night Journey for instance.

Many Qur'anic verses like Bible verses are found in our Writings... I think we may give the Bible more credit as an inspired Holy Scripture than most Muslims do however.

- Art

How will one decide which verses are to be taken literally and which ones will be allegorical? Will it be you or me? If we take that route, all of us will have a separate interpretation of the verses of the Quran.

For example, th Splitting of the Moon. You may take it allegorically, but I will take it literally. Can Allah grant His prophet that much power that the prophet with one stroke of his hand can split the moon into two? To me, Yes. Allah can grant His prophet that much power.

So who will decide whether these verses are to be taken literally or allegorically?

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

Imran:

How will one decide which verses are to be taken literally and which ones will be allegorical? Will it be you or me? If we take that route, all of us will have a separate interpretation of the verses of the Quran.

My reply:

The criteria for us Baha'is and what is charateristic of Baha'i views is that we accept a spiritual or allegorical interprertation of scriptures whether they be in the Qur'an or the Bible.

This was clearly enunciated by Abdul-Baha:

"By the help of this effulgent Light all the spiritual interpretation of the Holy Writings has been made plain, the hidden things of God's Universe have become manifest, and we have been enabled to comprehend the Divine purposes for man.

I pray that God in His mercy may illumine your hearts and souls with His glorious Light, then shall each one of you shine as a radiant star in the dark places of the world."

It's the literal interpretations of scriptures that get people in the most trouble and foster dogmatism and misunderstandings as well as what you could term fanaticism and fundamentalism.

Here's an example of a spirtual interpretation:

On the day of Judgment, the sun is to be folded up and lose its light, thereby casting confusion in the heavens, the stars, the clouds etc. as wall as the earth. When the sun, the centre of the solar system, is disturbed, naturally all the units of that system are also to suffer. The Bahá'í interpretation is.. of course, that light is spiritual light, not physical; therefore, the centre of light in our system, the sun, symbolizes the Manifestation or Apostle of God in each Day or Dispensation. Darkness, or the loss of light, represents the unbelief, the heedlessness and wickedness of the people. The heaven symbolizes God's religion, from where the Manifestation shines. The sun is always shining but often we cannot see its light, because of clouds. Clouds are moisture coming from the earth. In the spiritual meaning the Light of God is always pouring forth, but men cannot always see it because of the clouds of human fancies and imaginings which rise from the hearts and minds of men (the earth) and obstruct this light. Stars represent spiritual leaders, who appear in the heaven of religion, after the sun has set, that is after the Manifestation of God has left this world. The fall of the stars symbolizes their spiritual downfall in the eyes of men.

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=notes_bahai_proofs_quran

Again I wouldn't expect you to accept the Baha'i view but since you've been a student of Baha'i Faith for so long you should know how we generally approach interpretation.

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran:

How will one decide which verses are to be taken literally and which ones will be allegorical? Will it be you or me? If we take that route, all of us will have a separate interpretation of the verses of the Quran.

My reply:

The criteria for us Baha'is and what is charateristic of Baha'i views is that we accept a spiritual or allegorical interprertation of scriptures whether they be in the Qur'an or the Bible.

This was clearly enunciated by Abdul-Baha:

"By the help of this effulgent Light all the spiritual interpretation of the Holy Writings has been made plain, the hidden things of God's Universe have become manifest, and we have been enabled to comprehend the Divine purposes for man.

I pray that God in His mercy may illumine your hearts and souls with His glorious Light, then shall each one of you shine as a radiant star in the dark places of the world."

It's the literal interpretations of scriptures that get people in the most trouble and foster dogmatism and misunderstandings as well as what you could term fanaticism and fundamentalism.

Here's an example of a spirtual interpretation:

On the day of Judgment, the sun is to be folded up and lose its light, thereby casting confusion in the heavens, the stars, the clouds etc. as wall as the earth. When the sun, the centre of the solar system, is disturbed, naturally all the units of that system are also to suffer. The Bahá'í interpretation is.. of course, that light is spiritual light, not physical; therefore, the centre of light in our system, the sun, symbolizes the Manifestation or Apostle of God in each Day or Dispensation. Darkness, or the loss of light, represents the unbelief, the heedlessness and wickedness of the people. The heaven symbolizes God's religion, from where the Manifestation shines. The sun is always shining but often we cannot see its light, because of clouds. Clouds are moisture coming from the earth. In the spiritual meaning the Light of God is always pouring forth, but men cannot always see it because of the clouds of human fancies and imaginings which rise from the hearts and minds of men (the earth) and obstruct this light. Stars represent spiritual leaders, who appear in the heaven of religion, after the sun has set, that is after the Manifestation of God has left this world. The fall of the stars symbolizes their spiritual downfall in the eyes of men.

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=notes_bahai_proofs_quran

Again I wouldn't expect you to accept the Baha'i view but since you've been a student of Baha'i Faith for so long you should know how we generally approach interpretation.

- Art

Hi Art:

You are right. Maybe we have corresponded for so long that you can second guess my thoughts!

I will not accept your version simply because:

1. It is your version. Islam is submission to the will of Allah. This can only be done if I hear it from Allah or from his divine representative. Hence I always seek the traditions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in this regard. The Messenger will change but the concept will not.

2. You have no clue of the language (Arabic) and rely only on some translation. Allah chose Arabic as his chosen language and there is a reason for that for Allah does not do anything without wisdom. There must be some reason as well why Babi and Bahai texts were revealed in Arabic and Persian despite the Bahai principle of a unified language in this world.

3. You have no clue as to who was the receipient of the verse or for whom the verse was intended, or even if this verse was a trigger to any event. Surely without this, we would be in "reference without context"

4. You have no clue whether the verse was revealed in Mecca and Medina - this is an important parameter as well.

5. Your interpretation is word play and beyond the understanding of most people - not just ignorant people like myself. Using the philosophy of spiritual interpretation, one can interpret the verses as one likes. I would like to believe that Quran and its explanation is not that fluid. A Christian will interpret the Quran from his perspective, a Hindu from his, a Jew from his exposure and a Bahai from his. And a Muslim from his own. This is not what Islam intended. For example, if one interprets the Quran on his own, it may imply that Quran permit the drinking of alcohol since there is some good in it. or Quran says, do not go to namaz in the drunken state. Will this mean that a person interprets this verse as "You can drink alcohol, but remain sober if you are going to pray namaz". Surely Islam will be reduced to nothing more than a farce if we all interpret Quran the way we want. The spiritual interpretation of Quran is the only way we can twist Islam to suit our purpose. Refer to traditions and the actual thought of the verses as intended by Allah will be revealed.

6. And incidentally, Bahais do accept traditions - albeit only those that suit their pupose. In my conversations with you, you have mentioned that Bahais accept Ali (as) as the first Imam and that the Umayyads usurped his right. Where has that inference come out of if not from traditions?

7. I will be happy, rather more than happy to submit to your interpretation if there were even one tradition to support it - or even if it hinted to you interpretation, I would bow my head in submission to it.

Regards
Imran

 

[iBrian]

Well, if you are bound to Islam and cannot accept a Baha'i point of view, why ask for it?

Your last thread reads as a conclusion - ie, as a Shi'a Muslim you cannot accept another view of Islam and it's teachings outside of that view - so I'll simply allow Arthra the opportunity to make a post summarising his own position, then close the thread.

 

[imranshaykh]

Well, if you are bound to Islam and cannot accept a Baha'i point of view, why ask for it?

Your last thread reads as a conclusion - ie, as a Shi'a Muslim you cannot accept another view of Islam and it's teachings outside of that view - so I'll simply allow Arthra the opportunity to make a post summarising his own position, then close the thread.

Dear Brian:

I am bound to Islam till I receive sufficient proofs about the Bahai Faith. That truth will be available only through deliberate questioning wherein views are exchanged. If I were in the market for vegetables, I would buy what is available. But I am not doing that. I am considering my Faith. Hence, I feel it is my duty to dig deeper and seek a view that makes sense.

As regards my reluctance to accept a Bahai point of view, it is only when it is made loosely and without any references. If Quranic verses are flouted openly, personal interpretations are made in a discussion, then surely one cannot but question further to establish credibility. If this were my web site, I would say what I wanted to say. But it is not. Likewise I do not accept the Bahais to accept everything I say without sufficient proof to back my statements.

Let me give you an example of seeking Bahai sources and my keenness to accept the same.

Point #1: Bahais do not accept all Babi texts as they were distorted. Fair enough, due to persecution they would have.
Point #2: But which ones were and which ones were not? And for the ones which were not distorted, is there an official version of these books. Or were all books distorted.

When a person makes point #1, he/she should be willing with an open mind to reply to question #2, especially for people like myself who have all available Babi texts already and have the capacity to read despite knowing a language which is not known to most Bahais. Is this an unreasonable expectation?

So I repeat, I am happy to accept Bahai points of view and their statements provided they can back it up with some credible references.

Secondly, we discussed about an Islamic tradition from Imam Sadiq (as) quoted in Dawn Breakers. Fair enough. My point was that it is an important tradition and one which is weighted heavily in favour of the Bahais. But this tradition is not found anywhere in any books which I have read. Maybe I am ignorant of its source. So can the Bahais please inform me where it is. But I get no reply. Is this an unreasonable question?

So once again, I am happy to accept Bahai sources, provided they can provide some reference to back their statements.

It is unfair to expect any person to accept statements especially concerning one's Faith and then sulk when appropriate replies are not given. Which is unfortunately what is happening here. Time and again, I am been reminded of my web site despite the fact that it has nothing to do with my questions.

Art can close the discussion. It is upto you him/her to do that. I will be saddenned however that I was not given replies to the questions I asked.

Since my last post was not intended to me a summary, I will repeat my questions here:

1. Which texts of the Bab are available from "official" sources. I am not referring to SWB which is a motley collections of the writings of the Bab and that too in translated format. I am referring to the original texts in their original languages. Also is there some documentary proof from Bahaullah to the effect that all Babi texts were distorted and not to be read.

2. The 12th Imam is supposed to have died in 260 AH. Is there some documentary proof of that?

3. Bahaullah and Adbul Baha says that there was no 12th Imam (denying his borth altogether, which contradicts point 2). Is there some documentary proof of that?

4. The Bab is meant to have fulfilled the prophecies of the 12th Imam. Which prophecies. Is it is Islamic prophecies which are referred to, then please provide documentary proof for the same from Islamic sources? Please note that the prophecies are Islamic, hence the request for Islamic sources. if the prophecies were made in Judaism or Christianity, then it would be foolish to seek an Islamic reference for that.

5. Who is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan who the Bab refers to in his books Sahifae Adaliyah, Tafseere' Kausar, alaelus Sabah and Qayyamul Asma? It is not there in one, but four Babi texts, some of them extremely descriptive in nature in terms of the names, titles, parentage. Are we expected to ignore all that?

6. If there were 4 "Babs" (gates) to the 12th Imam after the 11th Imam, then who were these the gates of? Who were they reporting to? Is there some documentary proof to the effect?

7. As regards the verse of 1000 years (which is incidentally read literally and not spiritually), why is the 1,000 years counted from the death of the 11th Imam and not from the start of Islam (13 years before the start of the Islamic calendar) - implying that there is a gap of 273 years.

8. Is there some documentary proof of the traditions quoted by Nabil / Shoghi Effendi from any Islamic source.

For the sake of brevity, I will stop here. For each of the above points, the Bahais have given me some statements, some verses and expected me to accept them as they are. It is unfair to assume that I or for that matter any person will.

Sure, maybe my style of questioning may appear aggressive and I apologise if I have hurt the sentiments of any of the forum members. But I am not here to fight - I am here to seek answers to the questions which arise from my studies of the Bahai Faith.

As regards a Shiite outlook, Babism came out of Shiasm. Let nobody fool you otherwise. Hence my line of questioning will come with a request to substantiate arguments from a Shiite perspective.

Regards
Imran

 

[arthra]

Since the actual topic of this thread is regarding receiving divine revelations by "Baha'i Prophets" (Bab and Baha'u'llah) I will say that Baha'is accept the Writings of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah as "Scripture" or Holy Writings.

In the case of the Bab this revelation process began with the Commentary on the Surih of Joseph revealed in the presence of Mulla Husayn who was the first to believe in Him. The entire Commentary was revealed in the space of a few hours... Later other Writings were revealed under similar circumstances to other seekers and chroniclers - amaneunses or secretaries of the Babi dispensation.

As the claims of the Bab became clearer it became evident that He was not simply claiming to be a channel (or "Bab" meaning Gate) for the Twelfth Imam but to have fulfilled the prophecy of the Return of the Twelfth Imam, the Qa'im or Mahdi.

Twelver Shiah Islam believed in the supernatural and hidden presence of the Twelfth Imam and continues as far as we can determine to believe so.

The claims of the Bab then precipitated a crisis for many Shiah believers which shortly led to outright persecution of the Bab and HIs followers in Persia. This is in our view a parallel to how John the Baptist stirred and "evangelized" and prepared the Way for Jesus.. and you'll recall how the claims of Jesus to be the Messiah precipitated a similar crisis.

It's also true that many of the Bab's Writings were cryptic and not easily understood.

The Writings of the Bab were not well preserved. Many were destroyed and some were interpolated by His enemies... So today scholars have to sift through this and determine from what is left what can be accurately the earlier monographs and so on.

For Baha'is the priorities have been to publish only those Writings that we can be sure were the originals... A further priority was to publish the Writings of Baha'u'llah the Prophet-Founder of the Baha'i Faith so what has occurred thus far is the publication in 1976 of an English translation of selections of some of the main Writings revealed by the Bab. So this is a slow arduous process and it will continue in the future.

Baha'is view the Writings of the Bab as revealed scripture however the ordinances and laws of the Babi dispensation for the most part are no longer viable as most have been abrogated by "Him Whom God would make manifest" (prophesied by the Bab) of Baha'u'llah.

- Art

 

[iBrian]

And with that, we'll move on from this thread.