Power of Magick?
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Windchange
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EPR Paradox...
A kindred spirit!!! Hope you are having more luck
reconciling the two structures than I.
What we are talking about here is the EPR Paradox where Einstein and compatriots were aruging against the "incomplete" structure of quantum mechanics. It works like this: for every particle/wave there is also a reciprocal particle/wave. If you were to change an attribute of one then the other must also change in nature. But this would have to happen instantaneously (sp? sorry...) denoting some form of superluminal communications. So far we have not been able to prove or disprove that the twinned particle/wave changes when the measured one is altered.
So how does this tie into magickal theory?
According to the quantum viewpoint nothing actually exists as we percieve it. Everything around us is the result of infinestimally small and quick interactions between probability feilds. One school of thought states that there is a new universe created with every interaction and that all possible permutations of probability come into existence. But you are only allowed to experience one of these. Perhaps since it is the observer who is experiencing is a singular entity (sp again, big sigh...) when you practice a form of meta-thought you are able to put your finger on the wheel, not enough to control it utterly, but enough to get closer to where you will to be?
WHKeith said:
A kindred spirit!!! Hope you are having more luck
reconciling the two structures than I. What we are talking about here is the EPR Paradox where Einstein and compatriots were aruging against the "incomplete" structure of quantum mechanics. It works like this: for every particle/wave there is also a reciprocal particle/wave. If you were to change an attribute of one then the other must also change in nature. But this would have to happen instantaneously (sp? sorry...) denoting some form of superluminal communications. So far we have not been able to prove or disprove that the twinned particle/wave changes when the measured one is altered.
So how does this tie into magickal theory?
According to the quantum viewpoint nothing actually exists as we percieve it. Everything around us is the result of infinestimally small and quick interactions between probability feilds. One school of thought states that there is a new universe created with every interaction and that all possible permutations of probability come into existence. But you are only allowed to experience one of these. Perhaps since it is the observer who is experiencing is a singular entity (sp again, big sigh...) when you practice a form of meta-thought you are able to put your finger on the wheel, not enough to control it utterly, but enough to get closer to where you will to be?
Susma Rio Sep
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Ouija board again
I have never engaged in any Ouija Board session with others or by myself, if that is also done.
Honestly speaking I am afraid of the practice. And even though I call myself a postgraduate Catholic, I still take seriously the Catholic Church's proscription against all such practices like Ouija Board and seances.
Why am I afraid? Am I not a person of reason in the sense I don't give any worth to superstitious observances?
You see, it's one thing to be reasonable in not giving worth to superstitious beliefs and engagements, and another not to feel a chill in the midst of circumstances where people are already accustomed to be afraid. Ouija Board and seances are two examples of the Catholic Church's teachings on the insidious presence of unclean spirits.
Knowledge does not always bring about the consentaneous feeling and body mood. For example, I know that in the cemetery there are only people definitely dead, cadavers long ago buried; but at night I still feel dread to pass through a cemetery by myself, although knowing that dead bodies can't do any so much as mischievous tricks to scare me.
I understand that there are posters here who hold to the view and even conviction that Ouija board and seances have nothing to do with unclean spirits, not the kind understood by the Catholic Church. They resort to psychic forces for explanations.
Those who engage in Ouija boards, I wonder if they have this kind of an experience which I heard from people who had taken part in the practice.
Four persons were using the Ouija Board to find the answer to the question, whether the deceased father of one of them was in heaven or in hell. They placed their fingers lightly on the planchette which moved first to the letter "h", then "e", then "l" and finally another "l", spelling out "hell". So the group was horrified, and the companion whose father was the subject of the question was devastated.
But the devastated companion went to another Ouija board session with complete strangers who did not know anything about her previous session, and this time she got the answer "heaven". So she got wise and decided to stop there, and totally abandon all such practices.
My conclusion: the Catholic Church is a very wise mother to prohibit all such experimentations with so-called occult forces. I know that Protestant churches are also very stern against all such practices.
Susma Rio Sep
I have never engaged in any Ouija Board session with others or by myself, if that is also done.
Honestly speaking I am afraid of the practice. And even though I call myself a postgraduate Catholic, I still take seriously the Catholic Church's proscription against all such practices like Ouija Board and seances.
Why am I afraid? Am I not a person of reason in the sense I don't give any worth to superstitious observances?
You see, it's one thing to be reasonable in not giving worth to superstitious beliefs and engagements, and another not to feel a chill in the midst of circumstances where people are already accustomed to be afraid. Ouija Board and seances are two examples of the Catholic Church's teachings on the insidious presence of unclean spirits.
Knowledge does not always bring about the consentaneous feeling and body mood. For example, I know that in the cemetery there are only people definitely dead, cadavers long ago buried; but at night I still feel dread to pass through a cemetery by myself, although knowing that dead bodies can't do any so much as mischievous tricks to scare me.
I understand that there are posters here who hold to the view and even conviction that Ouija board and seances have nothing to do with unclean spirits, not the kind understood by the Catholic Church. They resort to psychic forces for explanations.
Those who engage in Ouija boards, I wonder if they have this kind of an experience which I heard from people who had taken part in the practice.
Four persons were using the Ouija Board to find the answer to the question, whether the deceased father of one of them was in heaven or in hell. They placed their fingers lightly on the planchette which moved first to the letter "h", then "e", then "l" and finally another "l", spelling out "hell". So the group was horrified, and the companion whose father was the subject of the question was devastated.
But the devastated companion went to another Ouija board session with complete strangers who did not know anything about her previous session, and this time she got the answer "heaven". So she got wise and decided to stop there, and totally abandon all such practices.
My conclusion: the Catholic Church is a very wise mother to prohibit all such experimentations with so-called occult forces. I know that Protestant churches are also very stern against all such practices.
Susma Rio Sep
In my opinion, Ouija boards are silly. Seems like a perfect way to spend a rainy afternoon, at best invoking some tricky spirits who want to play jokes on you.
I think it's a bit stupid to assume that you can sit down and contact dead people, or such, who conveniently use the western alphabet and, usually, English. It's naive to then think that whatever you get out of a Ouija board is the truth.
I think it's a bit stupid to assume that you can sit down and contact dead people, or such, who conveniently use the western alphabet and, usually, English. It's naive to then think that whatever you get out of a Ouija board is the truth.
Susma Rio Sep
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Stick to live people
That's very good, Johan; but I would even go further to avoid Ouija even as a game for any rainy afternoon. Write posts instead to internet forums.
About contact with the dead, Dr. Susma says:
Getting in contact with live people is already difficult as it is, and often impossible; so let's just leave the dead in peace by themselves.
Susma Rio Sep
Johanna said:
That's very good, Johan; but I would even go further to avoid Ouija even as a game for any rainy afternoon. Write posts instead to internet forums.
About contact with the dead, Dr. Susma says:
Getting in contact with live people is already difficult as it is, and often impossible; so let's just leave the dead in peace by themselves.
Susma Rio Sep
Windchange
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I see dead people...not
I'm with Dr. Susma on this one.
Contacting the dead would be one way of determining that question that drives all faiths: What happens to us when our time is up? But I have always wondered why dwell upon it? It WILL happen to all of us one day. And should you not focus instead upon the quality of life that you are living now?
I have lost friends and family and have grieved over the loss of my time with them, but it is a personal grief. I do not pity the dead even when enraged by the circumstances that caused their demise. I can only affect those living, hopefully in a positive fashion. Those who have gone before now know the truth. I think I'll wait a while...
I'm with Dr. Susma on this one.
Contacting the dead would be one way of determining that question that drives all faiths: What happens to us when our time is up? But I have always wondered why dwell upon it? It WILL happen to all of us one day. And should you not focus instead upon the quality of life that you are living now?
I have lost friends and family and have grieved over the loss of my time with them, but it is a personal grief. I do not pity the dead even when enraged by the circumstances that caused their demise. I can only affect those living, hopefully in a positive fashion. Those who have gone before now know the truth. I think I'll wait a while...
Susma Rio Sep
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A seance con artist
Thanks, Wind, for your encouraging agreement with my view on Ouija board and seances.
Do you remember or had you ever seen, I think a movie, where a rich family sought out a woman medium for a seance in their home.
The woman came with a big wooden traveling trunk. After the seance she asked to leave the trunk in the house of the host, she would return the following morning with a carriage to retrieve the trunk. As she promised, she came the next morning and took away with her the trunk she left the night before.
A few days after the seance, the family discovered some precious pieces of jewelry were missing.
Well, to make a long story short, and as I remember how it ended...
The family hired a detective to find out how the theft happened. This smart sleuth staged a ploy to trap the woman medium, pretending to enlist her service to stage a seance in the home of another rich family.
The woman came as before with a big trunk and left without the trunk as before, promising to come back for it the next morning. That night the detective and his assistant waited, in some hidden dark corner near where the trunk was stored, to see what would happen.
What happened? When the whole house became very quiet, the lid of the trunk was pushed open from below by a very small girl who came out and proceeded to look for the stairs. She was caught, which led to the arrest of the woman medium.
Ever saw that movie, an old black and white one?
Moral of the story: Beware of mediums whose interests are quite of this world.
Susma Rio Sep
Thanks, Wind, for your encouraging agreement with my view on Ouija board and seances.
Do you remember or had you ever seen, I think a movie, where a rich family sought out a woman medium for a seance in their home.
The woman came with a big wooden traveling trunk. After the seance she asked to leave the trunk in the house of the host, she would return the following morning with a carriage to retrieve the trunk. As she promised, she came the next morning and took away with her the trunk she left the night before.
A few days after the seance, the family discovered some precious pieces of jewelry were missing.
Well, to make a long story short, and as I remember how it ended...
The family hired a detective to find out how the theft happened. This smart sleuth staged a ploy to trap the woman medium, pretending to enlist her service to stage a seance in the home of another rich family.
The woman came as before with a big trunk and left without the trunk as before, promising to come back for it the next morning. That night the detective and his assistant waited, in some hidden dark corner near where the trunk was stored, to see what would happen.
What happened? When the whole house became very quiet, the lid of the trunk was pushed open from below by a very small girl who came out and proceeded to look for the stairs. She was caught, which led to the arrest of the woman medium.
Ever saw that movie, an old black and white one?
Moral of the story: Beware of mediums whose interests are quite of this world.
Susma Rio Sep
Blue Heron
Gaurds the Gate
The Power of Intention will be airing this weekend or next weekend on a Public Television Station in your area(s). US.
It was put together by Wayne Dyer, whose works I've read and may provide more insights to this discussion.
My training in Wicca has taught me it is my power of intention that determines if the magickal working will manifest. So, I'm looking forward to seeing what a secularist has to reveal about intention.
It was put together by Wayne Dyer, whose works I've read and may provide more insights to this discussion.
My training in Wicca has taught me it is my power of intention that determines if the magickal working will manifest. So, I'm looking forward to seeing what a secularist has to reveal about intention.
Rain of Brass Petals
Solar Exalt
This is a fantastic topic which sparks much-needed thought in the Occult World. I'm with the Quantum Physicists who say that nothing is impossible, but not everthing is probable. While the probability of magick being used to turn skyscrapers into bunnies is incredibly, incurably low, it does raise an interesting question: "If it's not impossible, just improbable, how do we raise the probability of it happening?"
To be perfectly honest, I haven't been able to answer this question. I can influence the probability of coin tosses and die rolls, but influencing probabilities on a far larger scale is, in my opinion, beyond the capability of any organic being.
In order for magick to be practical, it must conform to the laws of the Universe, and manifest itself in accordance with the natural harmony of all things. An impracticality working to make itself practical is not only futile, but it's needlessly tedious.
So while a spell may work perfectly well, the caster may never realize it since the method of manifestation may not conform to what the caster had in mind. Magick usually has to follow a natural course, and in so doing, it's results are sometimes too mundane to notice.
To be perfectly honest, I haven't been able to answer this question. I can influence the probability of coin tosses and die rolls, but influencing probabilities on a far larger scale is, in my opinion, beyond the capability of any organic being.
In order for magick to be practical, it must conform to the laws of the Universe, and manifest itself in accordance with the natural harmony of all things. An impracticality working to make itself practical is not only futile, but it's needlessly tedious.
So while a spell may work perfectly well, the caster may never realize it since the method of manifestation may not conform to what the caster had in mind. Magick usually has to follow a natural course, and in so doing, it's results are sometimes too mundane to notice.
Lady_Selune
Active Member
When my grandfather first started to teach me the way of a shaman I clearly remember him telling me that the more I looked the more I would see and that at some point I would have to stop looking or I would lose myself. Now, like most things old shamans say it had more then one meaning. (As a side note, I remember one afternoon swearing that if I ever got older I would not talk in riddles. I have been told in the last couple of years that I do just that at times.)WHKeith said:
Perhaps, given the fact that this theme appears in many different belief systems it is the answer to the question at hand. Magick is real in all senses of the word, it can and does affect us emotionally, physcially, and spiritually.
Erynn
Professional Madwoman
I'm generally a believer in synchronicity as the best explanation for most magic that manifests in the physical realm. I don't see it as being all that different from prayer, either, except that many kinds of magic aren't addressed to a deity -- instead they're put out as personal power to influence the physical realm by some people.
Personally, I take a very deity and spirit-centered approach to magic, so when I do anything of magical intent, I always ask the Gods and spirits to help me.
Not all magic in the west is entirely based on Qabalistic technique. In general, herbal charms and spoken magic has little or nothing to do with that tradition at all, as it doesn't involve (or doesn't have to involve) a Qabalistic style cosmology for its working. Scottish traditions, for instance, are often focused more around an oral component than around rituals, though the use of some magical objects (amulets, essentially) can be found.
I did a candle-burning spell many years ago that worked spectacularly well. I was needing to go back down to Oregon to retrieve some stuff in storage in my ex-boyfriend's storage unit there. I needed to be sure I'd be able to rent some transport for the trip back. Given that this was in the middle of Next To Nowhere, that was not guaranteed. Essentially, the spell was intended to ensure that I had transportation for myself and my stuff once I got to Oregon.
When I got down there, some friends of mine *gave* me a station wagon for the cost of fixing it enough to make it run ($89). This was cheaper than a rental would have been under the circumstances. I got to keep the car afterwards, too.
I like Robert Anton Wilson's idea of Cosmic Coincidence Control.
Magic can change some things, but it can't change everything. I don't expect it too, really. As in prayer, sometimes the answer to a spell is "no."
That was definitely a very effective transportation spell.
Personally, I take a very deity and spirit-centered approach to magic, so when I do anything of magical intent, I always ask the Gods and spirits to help me.
Not all magic in the west is entirely based on Qabalistic technique. In general, herbal charms and spoken magic has little or nothing to do with that tradition at all, as it doesn't involve (or doesn't have to involve) a Qabalistic style cosmology for its working. Scottish traditions, for instance, are often focused more around an oral component than around rituals, though the use of some magical objects (amulets, essentially) can be found.
I did a candle-burning spell many years ago that worked spectacularly well. I was needing to go back down to Oregon to retrieve some stuff in storage in my ex-boyfriend's storage unit there. I needed to be sure I'd be able to rent some transport for the trip back. Given that this was in the middle of Next To Nowhere, that was not guaranteed. Essentially, the spell was intended to ensure that I had transportation for myself and my stuff once I got to Oregon.
When I got down there, some friends of mine *gave* me a station wagon for the cost of fixing it enough to make it run ($89). This was cheaper than a rental would have been under the circumstances. I got to keep the car afterwards, too.
I like Robert Anton Wilson's idea of Cosmic Coincidence Control.
Magic can change some things, but it can't change everything. I don't expect it too, really. As in prayer, sometimes the answer to a spell is "no."
That was definitely a very effective transportation spell.
C
ChristRulesEternally
Guest
Hi!
Very interesting discussion you guys are having. I admit, I'm not too well-read (and especially rate low on the experience scale!) as far as magick and witchcraft and the like go.
However, I do know what I believe and figured since we're all quite open-minded (hopefully), my contribution would be useful to at least some of you... The reason for teh physical manifestation of chants and spells etc. is that these things are fought in thge spiritual realm and then eventually manifest themselves in the physical realm. The spirits operating behind magick and healings of this sort and financial providence etc. are demonic spirits. before God Almighty, Elohim, created the heavens and the earth, there was an expulsion that took place in heaven. Lucifer, because of pride had tried to exalt himself above his creator. He was expelled from heaven, banned from heaven for eternity. Neither Lucifer nor the third of the angels (who are now demons) can ever return to right standing (righteousness) in the sight of God.
Now these demonic spirits are fighting for the souls of mankind to join them in eternal flames. This is the reason they use deception and trickery to lure men into these pits. Lucifer has found that if he can get mankind to focus on self, they will defocus on God, becoming as rebellious as him and his follower angels. Hence, they would also not be allowed entrance into the dwelling place of God for eternity - SHOULD HE SUCCEED IN DECEIVING THEM UNTIL THEIR DEATH! If the eyes of mankind can be opened before that time, and they be given an opportunity to repent, God will gladly receive them back as part of His kingdom.
The signs and wonders that accompany these spiritists (high priests and priestesses - even politically correct!), are what the Bible refers to as counterfeit signs. They are signs alright, but their only function is to deceive and allure.
Do not be fooled by healings and miracles. These are not divine as you suppose, neither are they created in the psyche of mankind - which is another thing mankind doesn't even understand yet he wants to claim authority over it.... Yoh. What foolishness to turn to one who has not created and therefore cannot possibly know anything about the creation, instead of turning to the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah God, Emmanuel, Jesus Christ, and teh Holy Spirit of the living God.
Be blessed. In Jesus' name. Blessed and not cursed.
Amen.
Very interesting discussion you guys are having. I admit, I'm not too well-read (and especially rate low on the experience scale!) as far as magick and witchcraft and the like go.
However, I do know what I believe and figured since we're all quite open-minded (hopefully), my contribution would be useful to at least some of you... The reason for teh physical manifestation of chants and spells etc. is that these things are fought in thge spiritual realm and then eventually manifest themselves in the physical realm. The spirits operating behind magick and healings of this sort and financial providence etc. are demonic spirits. before God Almighty, Elohim, created the heavens and the earth, there was an expulsion that took place in heaven. Lucifer, because of pride had tried to exalt himself above his creator. He was expelled from heaven, banned from heaven for eternity. Neither Lucifer nor the third of the angels (who are now demons) can ever return to right standing (righteousness) in the sight of God.
Now these demonic spirits are fighting for the souls of mankind to join them in eternal flames. This is the reason they use deception and trickery to lure men into these pits. Lucifer has found that if he can get mankind to focus on self, they will defocus on God, becoming as rebellious as him and his follower angels. Hence, they would also not be allowed entrance into the dwelling place of God for eternity - SHOULD HE SUCCEED IN DECEIVING THEM UNTIL THEIR DEATH! If the eyes of mankind can be opened before that time, and they be given an opportunity to repent, God will gladly receive them back as part of His kingdom.
The signs and wonders that accompany these spiritists (high priests and priestesses - even politically correct!), are what the Bible refers to as counterfeit signs. They are signs alright, but their only function is to deceive and allure.
Do not be fooled by healings and miracles. These are not divine as you suppose, neither are they created in the psyche of mankind - which is another thing mankind doesn't even understand yet he wants to claim authority over it.... Yoh. What foolishness to turn to one who has not created and therefore cannot possibly know anything about the creation, instead of turning to the Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah God, Emmanuel, Jesus Christ, and teh Holy Spirit of the living God.
Be blessed. In Jesus' name. Blessed and not cursed.
Amen.
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
ChristRulesEternally said:
----Moderator Warning----
This is just a warning... the post partially quoted above steps awfully close to the line of disrespecting other religious paths. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt this time since it is your very first post on the messageboard. If this sort of disrespectful behaviour appears again it will not be handled so gently.
Please reread the messageboard code of conduct (it is here) and remember that while everyone is free to share their particular viewpoints, express opinions, and disagree with what others have said, we must also be respectful. Telling everyone who follows other religious paths that they are flat-out wrong and will be punished is not respectful. This messageboard is for interfaith discussion and sharing, not preaching and lambasting others for daring to have different religious beliefs.
Last edited:
Hi ChristRulesEternally, and welcome to CR.
And as Ben says, we generally try and keep criticisms of different faiths out of those faith boards, as a mark of respect.
I'm sure it would be fine as a discussion posted on the Christianity board, though.
And as Ben says, we generally try and keep criticisms of different faiths out of those faith boards, as a mark of respect.
I'm sure it would be fine as a discussion posted on the Christianity board, though.
Death by Coleslaw
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I've had something weird happen to me a couple times. Now please don't judge me, I am being honest, and Im slightly confused. I have had this happen a couple of times and are wondering if this would be considered "Will" or a very common "coincidence."
In the last 3 months it has rained quite a bit. When im attempting to sleep on the couch, the rain on the roof keeps me awake. I was starting to get annoyed, when all of a sudden I found an inner peace. I decided to stay in this peace and force every ounce of my concience into blocking out the noise...to making it stop. and it did. I cant explain it. Before it stopped the feeling was exactly the same, one of power and faith. To me it seemed like one of those "move a mountain" experiences. And, its happened more times in 3 months than i have fingers (i have ten) .
What do you think?
In the last 3 months it has rained quite a bit. When im attempting to sleep on the couch, the rain on the roof keeps me awake. I was starting to get annoyed, when all of a sudden I found an inner peace. I decided to stay in this peace and force every ounce of my concience into blocking out the noise...to making it stop. and it did. I cant explain it. Before it stopped the feeling was exactly the same, one of power and faith. To me it seemed like one of those "move a mountain" experiences. And, its happened more times in 3 months than i have fingers (i have ten)
. What do you think?
Hi Death by Coleslaw, and welcome to CR.
Sounds like you're having some gentle spiritual experiences - I wouldn't worry too much about trying to explain them, as much as simply appreciate them.
Sounds like you're having some gentle spiritual experiences - I wouldn't worry too much about trying to explain them, as much as simply appreciate them.
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
Learning to focus your attention is a valuable skill that is often one of the preliminary lessons in magickal arts.
What you did might appear unusual but is actually not unusual for those who have at least some ability to focus their attention.
Keep in mind though that the goal of focussing in the example you gave was (it seems to me anyways) to stop being annoyed by the sound of the rain, right? That brings to mind two possible ways that it was accomplished. Either 1) the rain stopped, or 2) you just stopped noticing the noise, or stopped feeling annoyed by it.
My guess is that it was #2 that actually happened. It's the same thing that we often experience when we get really involved watching something on TV or at a theatre, or when we are reading a really good book. You get so wrapped up in paying attention to it that you don't notice things that are going on right around you.
There is an interesting recent psychology paper that demonstrates how focussed attention allows us to ignore other things -- you can download and read the PDF version of the report here. The researchers have more info, including some videos related to their research, on the web here.
What you did might appear unusual but is actually not unusual for those who have at least some ability to focus their attention.
Keep in mind though that the goal of focussing in the example you gave was (it seems to me anyways) to stop being annoyed by the sound of the rain, right? That brings to mind two possible ways that it was accomplished. Either 1) the rain stopped, or 2) you just stopped noticing the noise, or stopped feeling annoyed by it.
My guess is that it was #2 that actually happened. It's the same thing that we often experience when we get really involved watching something on TV or at a theatre, or when we are reading a really good book. You get so wrapped up in paying attention to it that you don't notice things that are going on right around you.
There is an interesting recent psychology paper that demonstrates how focussed attention allows us to ignore other things -- you can download and read the PDF version of the report here. The researchers have more info, including some videos related to their research, on the web here.
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
Quahom1 said:
The ability to really focus your attention and intent is one of the main skills used in effective magick. So yes, if you can focus well then you are on the way to being able to achieve all sorts of magickal effects.
http://www.psipog.net/ and http://www.cantrap.net/ are two good websites that discuss the various techniques that are the foundations of effective magick. There are also many good books on the topic, such as Nancy B. Watson's "Practical Solitary Magic," Donald Michael Kraig's "Modern Magick," and Frater UD's new one, "High Magic."
Then this could explain how some are able to find others, when all standard means are exhausted...bgruagach said:
I saved a child's life once, that I did not even know was there (let alone in peril). But when I touched the child, there was a slight shock (for lack of a better descriptor). How I found the child is a story in and of itself, but my point is, from no where, I sensed something that should not have been. But by ignoring the logical, I found the impossible, and his young life was saved.
What got my attention on this thread is the "focus" thing. By focusing on a specific sense, one can (it seems), zero in on somthing or someone. Or maybe I've missed the boat completely...
v/r
Q