Prayer church and state

[zx128k]

I know that there was an interest in the issues of prayer, Church and State. Below are some things I read from the bible about it. Any views on the subject would be helpful. I am non-christian, so hopefully this does not offend anyone here.

• Bible talks of Church and State: Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25 (“Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”)

Matthew 22:21

Paying Taxes to Caesar
22:15 Then the Pharisees went out and planned together to entrap him with his own words. 22:16 They sent to him their disciples along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are truthful, and teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You do not court anyone’s favor because you show no partiality. 22:17 Tell us then, what do you think? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
22:18 But Jesus realized their evil intentions and said, “Hypocrites! Why are you testing me? 22:19 Show me the coin used for the tax.” Sothey brought him a denarius. 22:20 Jesus said to them, “Whose image is this, and whose inscription?” 22:21 They replied, “Caesar’s.” He said to them, “Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22:22 Now when they heard this they were stunned, and they left him and went away.

Mark 12:17
Paying Taxes to Caesar
Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldn’t we?” 12:15 But he saw through their hypocrisy and said 12:13 Then they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to trap him with his own words. 12:14 When they came they said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are truthful and do not court anyone’s favor, because you show no partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. to them, “Why are you testing me? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 12:16 So they brought one, and he said to them, “Whose image is this, and whose inscription?” They replied, “Caesar’s.” 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were utterly amazed at him.

Luke 20:25
Paying Taxes to Caesar
20:20 Then they watched him carefully and sent spies who pretended to be sincere. They wanted to take advantage of what he might say so that they could deliver him up to the authority and jurisdiction of the governor. 20:21 Thus they asked him, “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach correctly, and show no partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 20:22 Is it right for us to pay the tribute tax to Caesar or not?” 20:23 But Jesus perceived their deceit and said to them, 20:24 “Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?” They said, “Caesar’s.” 20:25 So he said to them, “Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 20:26 Thus they were unable in the presence of the people to trap him with his own words. And stunned by his answer, they fell silent.

• Matthew and public prayer: (whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door)
  

Matthew 6:5-6
Private Prayer
6:5 “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. 6:7 When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

• Matthew and oaths (But I say to you, do not take oaths at all)

Matthew 5:34
Oaths
5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not break an oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 5:34 But I say to you, do not take oaths at all – not by heaven, because it is the throne of God, 5:35 not by earth, because it is his footstool, and not by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. 5:36 Do not take an oath by your head, because you are not able to make one hair white or black. 5:37 Let your word be ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no.’ More than this is from the evil one.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

So, what's the question? It's probably a good idea to pay your taxes.

Jesus was a pretty wily character. When he says "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" he's essentially saying, "give Caesar what he's got coming." That satisfies the zealots without overtly suggesting sedition.

JMO

Chris

 

[zx128k]

So this would then have nothing to do with separation of Church and State or with Church and State. Thxs for the reply.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

So this would then have nothing to do with separation of Church and State or with Church and State. Thxs for the reply.

Dude, don't just take my word for it. I'm just giving you a slice of my opinion, which is probably worth what it costs.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

So this would then have nothing to do with separation of Church and State or with Church and State. Thxs for the reply.

Welcome to CR Zx.

What Jesus was pointing out is that God puts governments in positions of power. No one becomes powerful and authoritative without Heaven's consent.

Which means we are to obey the laws of our civil governments, and we are to obey the laws of God.

In an ogliarchy (such as the US military for example), there are strict rules and regulations that must be adhered to for the good order and discipline of the service. However, there is a caveat which states, that military personnel will carry out the orders given to them, unless such orders are unreasonable, unlawful, and/or could bring discredit to the service.

In civil law, there are similar caveats that advise the people that there are times when the law is illegal, unreasonable and/or could bring discredit to the country.

"The Higher Law doctrine asserts that God's law
takes precedence over civil law whenever it can be
shown that the two come into conflict. Man is ordinar-
ily duty bound to obey the civil law and magistrates
since the benefits of orderly government are large
indeed; on the other hand, man cannot, out of higher
duty, obey the civil law or magistrates if they command
him to break the word of God.
While the Higher Law doctrine was never wholly
absent from thought and practice during most of the
career of Western civilization, it was usually sporadic
and individual in nature. For the most part, people
were happy to accept the Higher Law concept without
drawing its painful corollary of civil disobedience."

"The Christian who believes that the Word of God is able to instruct him in righteousness and equip for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16-17), including the work of voting, will necessarily turn to the Scripture for guidance. The Bible contains explicit instructions concerning the qualifications for civil officers, and to these the Christian ought to look as he determines who he will support with his time, money, and vote. There are two primary texts that set forth the standards for choosing civil magistrates: Exodus 18:21 and Deuteronomy 1:13. "

William Einwechter

Basically what this means is that God expects man to obey His mandates, when we "allow" to put people in positions of authority. And once that is accomplished, we are expected to obey the Civil governmental authority that we voted in.

But we are also to remain viligant and watch closely those we elect to lead us, so that they do not lead our civilization down the wrong path.

If after time we find those civil authorities to be inept, incompetent or above the law, we the people are duty bound by God to make change (in accordance with civil law).

The two actually go hand in hand (ideally).

v/r

Q

 

[wil]

The separation or inclusion or anything inbetween of church and state are made by the governmental bodies...not the bible...

We have countries which have a required national religion, and have countries that abandoned all religion...

 

[iBrian]

I actually took the reply of Jesus to imply separation of the spirutual and temporal - effectively, Caesar as administrating over material concerns, and having no authority over spiritual ones.

2c.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I actually took the reply of Jesus to imply separation of the spirutual and temporal - effectively, Caesar as administrating over material concerns, and having no authority over spiritual ones.

2c.

I would agree entirely with that interpretation.


david

 

[Dor]

The bible does not imply church and state or lack of church and state.

It does tell us not to worry as much about the things of this world and worry about the future...which is what that verse points to me.

 

[zx128k]

@Dor
Bible seems to mention not to worry about the future and not to seek material things. Matthew 6:24 seems to talk about greed and that you can only follow god or money and 25-34 seems to tell us not to worry as god will provide what we need.

Matthew 6:19-34 (New International Version)

Treasures in Heaven

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Do Not Worry

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

@I, Brian
1 Peter 2:13-14 & 17
Could this also be what the bible is trying to say, that we should follow the law of the land and respect the authority of the state or ruler. You respect that which is under Caesar's authority and render unto him the taxes he requires, but for god respect his authority and render unto him what he requires? 17 seems to be saying that respect must be given to the ruler, which would mean respecting his laws or commands. Rulers made by the state ( even if they are wrong???) and the rules made by god must be respected?

Submission to Rulers and Masters

13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. 18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls

Romans 13 (New International Version)

Submission to the Authorities

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

@Quahom1

If after time we find those civil authorities to be inept, incompetent or above the law, we the people are duty bound by God to make change (in accordance with civil law).

The passages that I have read so far do not lead me to believe this but I could be wrong. Even if they are wrong we have to still submit yourselves to their rule and repsect their commands?????? Romans says, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and that authorities that exist have been established by God, but as we can vote for another grovernment by law then this is are only way of getting rid of a bad one. Caesar if I am remeber correctly ruled as an despot who ruled with absolute political power, wielded all the power and authority, and everyone else was considered to be his slave. I don't think that it says that we should seek to change the government but by doing the right thing we expose the evil for what it is and leave no scape goat by not obeying his rule. We are just lucky that we can by law, can vote for a new leader but how do we know if they are any better than the old one?

Thxs for the replys, you all give me allot to think about so sorry for the late reply from me.

 

[Quahom1]

@Dor
Bible seems to mention not to worry about the future and not to seek material things. Matthew 6:24 seems to talk about greed and that you can only follow god or money and 25-34 seems to tell us not to worry as god will provide what we need.

Matthew 6:19-34 (New International Version)

Treasures in Heaven

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Do Not Worry

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

@I, Brian
1 Peter 2:13-14 & 17
Could this also be what the bible is trying to say, that we should follow the law of the land and respect the authority of the state or ruler. You respect that which is under Caesar's authority and render unto him the taxes he requires, but for god respect his authority and render unto him what he requires? 17 seems to be saying that respect must be given to the ruler, which would mean respecting his laws or commands. Rulers made by the state ( even if they are wrong???) and the rules made by god must be respected?

Submission to Rulers and Masters

13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. 18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls

Romans 13 (New International Version)

Submission to the Authorities

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

@Quahom1

The passages that I have read so far do not lead me to believe this but I could be wrong. Even if they are wrong we have to still submit yourselves to their rule and repsect their commands?????? Romans says, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and that authorities that exist have been established by God, but as we can vote for another grovernment by law then this is are only way of getting rid of a bad one. Caesar if I am remeber correctly ruled as an despot who ruled with absolute political power, wielded all the power and authority, and everyone else was considered to be his slave. I don't think that it says that we should seek to change the government but by doing the right thing we expose the evil for what it is and leave no scape goat by not obeying his rule. We are just lucky that we can by law, can vote for a new leader but how do we know if they are any better than the old one?

Thxs for the replys, you all give me allot to think about so sorry for the late reply from me.

In the US anyway, the Constitution gives the authority over the government to the people, who by law, can liquidate the presiding government and establish a new one.

Again, the laws are made by the people for the people, not by those representing citizens in governmental positions. If the representitives scream something the people want is unconstitutional, then the people have the authority and power to "amend" the Constitution, to make their will, legal. The onus in on the people for how close or how far they want God involved in their civil affairs. And if the laws counter God's laws, I do believe the people will feel the ramifications of that conflict.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[zx128k]

@Quahom1
Thank you for such a quick reply, could you explain why you believe this

And if the laws counter God's laws, I do believe the people will feel the ramifications of that conflict.

futher and how it fits with the view that the bible puts forward? In what form do you see conflict (like for example today, say with intelligent design and intelligent falling in the courts/schools and science
etc) taking place and what the ramifications will be? Caesar for what I can remember did not follow gods laws but still the bible said in Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:17 and Luke 20:25“Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” and with my last post on Submission to Rulers/Authorities, what do you believe the people what feel or how will it conflict with them?

 

[Dor]

Sorry when I said worry about the future I wasnt specific I meant the future as in after death or after he has come back. Not the future as a few yrs when I hit 40.

 

[Quahom1]

Zx,

Intersesting challenge you've presented me.

First off, it is no secret where my faith lies. And like my spouse, I do whole heartedly believe that what we do, comes back to us. (or one reaps what one sows).

With great riches and power comes equally as great responsiblity and accountability. (the more you are given, the more you should give).

Now I have no issue with evolution theory as I believe the evidence is quite abundant (both macro and microscopic), nor do I have issue with the validity of the Bible (it simply states that every bit of it is true, and God inspired). However, no where in the Bible does it state that the writings are literal historical fact on the appearance of man or anything else, only that the writings are truth, and God inspired (word of God). And the point that man was the last living creature brought on scene (according to the Bible), goes hand in hand with evolution theory stating we were the last to appear on scene. Anyway I'd prefer not to get into debate about this physical part of reality right now, as that is not the questions you want answered.

I believe your concern is over the concept of morality, both civil and Spiritual.

Man is given two sets of laws. Ideally the earthly laws he's given compliment the Spiritual laws he's given. However that is not always the case.

If the laws of man violate the laws of God, then we as the citizens are duty bound to modify the laws of man, in order to maintain the balance with God's laws.

And I'm talking about the important laws, not frivolous or ridiculous laws, or laws that help maintain the societies existence as one.

For this discussion's sake, let us consider the 7 basic laws (Noahidic laws), every man is supposed to obey according to God: Note, I'm not concerned with modern man's interpretation of laws at this point. I'm stating the laws as they were given several thousand years ago.


The seven laws are:

1. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods.
2. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
3. Gezel - Do not steal (or kidnap).
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, bestiality, male homosexual sex acts and adultery.)
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not "bless God" euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
6. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (given to Noah and traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
7. Dinim - Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.

Of all of these laws, the seventh is what struck me the most profoundly, concerning your questions.

God commanded that man establish a system of Honest, Effective courts, Police, and Laws to UPHOLD the previous six!

We are duty bound by God to prevent a government of oppression, or a state of anarchy. We must set up honest governments, and those governments are to uphold the Noahidic laws, while they earthly exist.

In short we are duty bound to God's laws, and duty bound to establish a Ceasar that we can in good consciousness and good "faith", follow...
Ceasar doesn't make himself, men make Ceasar. If Ceasar is doing what is right and honest for the people, then the people are duty bound to obey the leader they put into place.

If not, then the people are duty bound to remove and replace that "Ceasar" with one who will do what is right and honest for the people.

If we do not, then God holds the "people" accountable, not Ceasar, because the "people" failed to follow the laws of God.

The fault is the peoples'. And if a people forget God, then I suspect God forgets the people, and forgets to bless them in abundance. (I know I wouldn't continue blessing those who held me in contempt or disdain).

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[zx128k]

@Dor
Sorry Dor I see where you are comming from now, I took it to mean the future in general.

 

[zx128k]

Romans 13:1-7 was written at a time when the Roman government ruled and must importantly had just recently put Jesus Christ to death by hanging from a tree/crucifixion. Also as was touched on before, the Roman government was not a democracy and oppressed many people in many of the different territories that it had conquered. At the time the Roman renamed the land to worsen the humiliation of the defeated Jews to the Latin name Palaestina, after the Philistines, whom the Romans identified as the worst enemies of the Jews in their history and suppress the name "Judaea". Roman soldiers were vicious and ruthless; the government was also by no means pro-Christian. Even so Romans 13:1-7 says everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities and ‘If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honour, then honour.’ This would seem to contradict the opinion
Originally Posted by Quahom1
We are duty bound by God to prevent a government of oppression

In the west to an extent we are lucky in that the laws or the state, protect us from religious oppression but if the laws of man must be by the people for the people then they cannot be based on any one particular religious writings, as many place their god or teaching above that of other competing ideologies i.e. there is only one true god and he/she is xyz. To entertain one could then become the avenue by with another could/would be oppressed.

Today as it was in the passed, not all the people where Christian but in Roman times under Roman rule of law, Christians and Jews where oppressed because of there beliefs or because they opposed the authority of Rome. Given the possible contradiction, between a Roman government whose rule of law crucified Jesus Christ and the message in Romans presented in chapter 13 verse 1-7; that was then written to express that Christians should respect the rule of such governments. It would seem that the writers understood that a government rules by one set of rules that govern their empire and maintain peace and securely for its subjects but that the rules given in the bible are for those who are Christian and wish to follow the path set out by the teaching set therein. It is written in Romans 13:1-7, that ‘He who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and that authorities that exist have been established by God’ and that ‘Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.’, which seems to follow the statement that you give above

Originally Posted by Quahom1
What Jesus was pointing out is that God puts governments in positions of power. No one becomes powerful and authoritative without Heaven's consent.
It goes on to say that, ‘The authorities that exist have been established by God.’ It would seem that Romans 13:1-7 favours any order over that of anarchy and respect for authority of rulers.

Originally Posted by I, Brian
I actually took the reply of Jesus to imply separation of the spiritual and temporal - effectively, Caesar as administrating over material concerns, and having no authority over spiritual ones.

From this I would tend to agree with the post by I, Brian that Jesus is the ruler over that which is spiritual and Caesar over that which is material. I would seem to fit the material I have read so far i.e. ‘Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.’

Originally Posted by Quahom1

‘The seven laws are:

1. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods.
2. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
3. Gezel - Do not steal (or kidnap).
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, bestiality, male homosexual sex acts and adultery.)
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not "bless God" euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
6. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (given to Noah and traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
7. Dinim - Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.

Of all of these laws, the seventh is what struck me the most profoundly, concerning your questions.’

In the context of the state 2, 3 and 7 are possibly compatible. Law seven cannot be enforced if Law 1 and 5 are in place. Who gets to define what a false gods is and who gets to decide what blasphemy and what happen to those who do not obey. This could lead to oppression of people that believe in other religions or none at all, i.e. they are all worshiping false gods. Four I won’t touch on as it is too distasteful for me but there are reference in the bible to some of the acts mentioned in your four law i.e. in Genesis (19:3-8 & 33–36) (20:12) (22:20–23) (28:8–9) (36:2–3) (29) (38), Exodus 6:20 and Numbers 36, many of these things in the bible trouble me when I read them. Leviticus seems to be the book of laws that covers most of what you state for the four law but I havent got that far yet.

 

[Quahom1]

Romans 13:1-7 was written at a time when the Roman government ruled and must importantly had just recently put Jesus Christ to death by hanging from a tree/crucifixion. Also as was touched on before, the Roman government was not a democracy and oppressed many people in many of the different territories that it had conquered. At the time the Roman renamed the land to worsen the humiliation of the defeated Jews to the Latin name Palaestina, after the Philistines, whom the Romans identified as the worst enemies of the Jews in their history and suppress the name "Judaea". Roman soldiers were vicious and ruthless; the government was also by no means pro-Christian. Even so Romans 13:1-7 says everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities and ‘If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honour, then honour.’ This would seem to contradict the opinion
Originally Posted by Quahom1
We are duty bound by God to prevent a government of oppression

In the west to an extent we are lucky in that the laws or the state, protect us from religious oppression but if the laws of man must be by the people for the people then they cannot be based on any one particular religious writings, as many place their god or teaching above that of other competing ideologies i.e. there is only one true god and he/she is xyz. To entertain one could then become the avenue by with another could/would be oppressed.

Today as it was in the passed, not all the people where Christian but in Roman times under Roman rule of law, Christians and Jews where oppressed because of there beliefs or because they opposed the authority of Rome. Given the possible contradiction, between a Roman government whose rule of law crucified Jesus Christ and the message in Romans presented in chapter 13 verse 1-7; that was then written to express that Christians should respect the rule of such governments. It would seem that the writers understood that a government rules by one set of rules that govern their empire and maintain peace and securely for its subjects but that the rules given in the bible are for those who are Christian and wish to follow the path set out by the teaching set therein. It is written in Romans 13:1-7, that ‘He who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and that authorities that exist have been established by God’ and that ‘Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.’, which seems to follow the statement that you give above

Originally Posted by Quahom1
What Jesus was pointing out is that God puts governments in positions of power. No one becomes powerful and authoritative without Heaven's consent.
It goes on to say that, ‘The authorities that exist have been established by God.’ It would seem that Romans 13:1-7 favours any order over that of anarchy and respect for authority of rulers.

Originally Posted by I, Brian
I actually took the reply of Jesus to imply separation of the spiritual and temporal - effectively, Caesar as administrating over material concerns, and having no authority over spiritual ones.

From this I would tend to agree with the post by I, Brian that Jesus is the ruler over that which is spiritual and Caesar over that which is material. I would seem to fit the material I have read so far i.e. ‘Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.’

Originally Posted by Quahom1

‘The seven laws are:

1. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods.
2. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
3. Gezel - Do not steal (or kidnap).
4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, bestiality, male homosexual sex acts and adultery.)
5. Birkat Hashem - Do not "bless God" euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
6. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (given to Noah and traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
7. Dinim - Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.

Of all of these laws, the seventh is what struck me the most profoundly, concerning your questions.’

In the context of the state 2, 3 and 7 are possibly compatible. Law seven cannot be enforced if Law 1 and 5 are in place. Who gets to define what a false gods is and who gets to decide what blasphemy and what happen to those who do not obey. This could lead to oppression of people that believe in other religions or none at all, i.e. they are all worshiping false gods. Four I won’t touch on as it is too distasteful for me but there are reference in the bible to some of the acts mentioned in your four law i.e. in Genesis (19:3-8 & 33–36) (20:12) (22:20–23) (28:8–9) (36:2–3) (29) (38), Exodus 6:20 and Numbers 36, many of these things in the bible trouble me when I read them. Leviticus seems to be the book of laws that covers most of what you state for the four law but I havent got that far yet.

It's good that you are searching and comparing what is supposed to be vs. what happens in reality. It is also good that you point out the Bible shows the reality of man along with what is supposed to be.

If you consider the "Rome" you seem to be sticking to, you will find that it was dying a slow but inevitble death. In fact, embracing Christianity was a political and last ditch effort to keep the empire alive. But it was too little, too late.

And as you note (in small error), what was my "opinion" is actually the seventh Noahidic law, verbatim.

There was a time when Rome was not so screwed up, was quite reserved in beliefs and how it conducted business, and during that time Rome achieved its power, glory and respect.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[zx128k]

@Quahom1
I am sorry if I quoted your opinion even in the small error, it was not my intention to do so. Its just that everytime I search for any stuff on the bible or government it always seems to refer to Rome.

 

[iBrian]

Well, my understanding of early Christianity is that a lot of Christians refused to acknowledge the Roman civil gods - whether Jupiter or the reigning emperor - hence a big reason why Christians were persecuted.

Jesus certainly doesn't seem to me to state that Caesar must be worshipped as a god, as dictated by Roman society.

 

[mee]

Well, my understanding of early Christianity is that a lot of Christians refused to acknowledge the Roman civil gods - whether Jupiter or the reigning emperor - hence a big reason why Christians were persecuted.

Jesus certainly doesn't seem to me to state that Caesar must be worshipped as a god, as dictated by Roman society.

yes i agree , we should be obedient to the laws of the land we live in, but if those laws contradict Gods laws we as christians would have to obey God as ruler
"We must obey God as ruler rather than men."—ACTS 5:29.