What would you do?

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

TRUE STORY​

BOOK
The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness
Simon Wiesenthal


In 1943, Lemberg (Lwow, Austria) Concentration Camp prisoner Simon Wiesenthal is summoned to the bedside of a dying Nazi. This SS man, after confessing to a horrific crime against Jews, seeks Wiesenthal's, "a Jew's," forgiveness. Wiesenthal, deeply troubled by the request, turns the forgiveness request back to his fellow victims, and, ultimately, to the reader. One critical passage: (end of Book One, page 98) "You, who have just read this sad and tragic episode in my life, can mentally change places with me and ask yourself the crucial question, 'What would I have done?'"

For Wiesenthal, the encounter was unexpected and unnerving. Taken from the Lemberg Concentration Camp in a workers’ group to the town’s army hospital in 1943, Wiesenthal was suddenly summoned, as a singled-out Jew, to the bedside of a mortally wounded SS man, Karl Seidl. The man seized Wiesenthal’s hand and confessed to helping destroy, by fire and armaments, a house filled with more than 150 Jews. When Karl Seidl finished his story, he begged the Jewish forced-laborer to forgive him. Wiesenthal, however, rose and walked out. During the next two years, Wiesenthal shared this story with fellow camp mates, ending each time with: “Was my silence at the bedside of the dying Nazi right or wrong?” The incident and question so troubled Wiesenthal that, in 1946, he visited Karl Seidl’s mother in Stuttgart but left without telling the bereaved woman about her son’s misdeeds.

What would you do in this situation?

 

[cavalier]

It's so hard to say because, though I've heard the story, I haven't experienced anything that even comes close to this.

So many of the things I think I would like to do would have been impossible, given that I would be a Jew in a concentration camp.
I would want the man to suffer, I would want to hit and beat him, I would want to tell him/ shout at him the experiences I and my loved ones had had as Jews. After that, if he could humble himself enough to take all that from a Jew and still feel sorry, I think I would forgive him, or at least tell him that I did.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Yo eleven and Cavalier, welcome to both of you! Welcome to CR!

Yours is a good question Yo, I do not know how I would respond. As Cavalier mentioned, I have never faced anything remotely close. Even what prejudice I have faced (and occasionally still do) is in no way comparable.

I would want the man to suffer, I would want to hit and beat him, I would want to tell him/ shout at him the experiences I and my loved ones had had as Jews. After that, if he could humble himself enough to take all that from a Jew and still feel sorry, I think I would forgive him, or at least tell him that I did.

I want to touch on this. It is so easy to want to project our own prejudices onto a scapegoat, a representative of those we "hate." Was this man guilty of any crime? By his own admission he was guilty of one crime. Was he guilty of all hate crimes? I doubt it. In our own hurt we see one we "have permission" to project onto, and heap all of our hurts onto this one. In spite of the fact he is only guilty of one crime...

I think, in a perfect world, we should only hold a person guilty for the crimes they alone commit. I cannot, in my mind and heart, lay the crimes of a collective group onto each individual. Staying with the Nazi analogy (in part for PC), Hitler as leader ordered many crimes, including imprisonment in concentration camps. To be sure, he had advisors who recommended such things. He had high ranking officers who ordered such things. He had mid level officers who organized and directed such things. He had lower level officers who guarded and operated the camps. In other words, there were a great many people who were genuinely guilty. But there were also many Nazi's who were not guilty.

I cannot see the justice in levelling the crime of the group against a representative member who is not in fact guilty of the specific crime. It is a form of prejudice. It leads to discrimination.

I hold each individual accountable for their own errrors, and even then, it is not my place to hold them in judgement.

There is only one person in this world I hate, and I have no name or face. That person stole one I love from this existence, that person murdered my step-father. I can forgive many things, this I cannot forgive, and I have tried for many years. I refuse to forget.

It would not be fair, or just, or right of me, to level my hatred at anybody other than the one who has earned it. I cannot hate "his" group, simply because I cannot find him. He knows who he is, and he will pay, in time.

We all will.

 

[Dondi]

There is only one person in this world I hate, and I have no name or face. That person stole one I love from this existence, that person murdered my step-father. I can forgive many things, this I cannot forgive, and I have tried for many years. I refuse to forget.

I can't even imagine you pain from this, juantoo3. But you are the only one who can forgive whoever did this, your and your family, no one else can. I pray God will heal your hurt and bitterness in this.

I have heard of stories of mothers who have had face to face contact with the murderers of their sons or daughters. That takes a lot of courage. The purpose is to let them know how much they have hurt them and their family. How nothing can bring them back, no matter what punishment is deserving for the convicted. Yet somehow, some these mothers have found the strength and grace to forgive them for what they did. For some reason, God had given compassion and pity on their loved one's murderers. They felt that even though this person took something precious from them, the mothers felt like they could somehow redeem the person by forgiving them. Adn also by forgiving them, they have released much of the bitterness and hatred that they harbored in their hearts. That by the grace of God, they learned to love the person. And it appeared that that person was deeply affected by the mothers love.

I wish I could give more specifics on the particular case I have in mind. I just saw it on one of those TV news magazines like 20/20 or Dateline. But it was very heartfelt. I don't know how she was able to forgive the person, but it was like they formed a relationship and she kinda adopted him to I guess redeem the fact that she wouldn't be able to raise her son, so she opted to give this person a chance to be more that the murderer he was. I don't understand it, but it was pretty amazing.

 

[Tao_Equus]

The Nazi officer in this story appears knew he was dying. He was not feeling sorry for himself in his immediate position nor was he a trembling jibbering fool fearing death. He had instead something that had plagued his conscience right at the forefront of his thoughts. It could be argued that he did nothing more than fear his immenent day of reckoning where he would be judged by G_d, and that thus it was ultimately a selfish act. But also he could have been genuinely sorry and haunted and seeking some kind of peace from that memory in his final moments.

If I had been the Jew summoned to that deathbed I think I would have felt genuine compassion for the man. But his crime, or his part in that crime, was too great for me to forgive. If I had been that Jew I would have told him to wait a little longer for I was not qualified to forgive on that scale.

Regards

David

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

Thanks!

I can't even imagine you pain from this, juantoo3. But you are the only one who can forgive whoever did this, your and your family, no one else can. I pray God will heal your hurt and bitterness in this.

You are correct, only my family can forgive this person here in this existence. Since the coward chooses to hide, and the police do not deem my step-father important enough to waste resources on, the perp still walks among us. Therein lies what bitterness I have. I do not project that bitterness outward towards others who do not deserve it. What baggage I carry, is my choice. It is well that some are able to forgive heinous acts, such as the mothers you mention. I am not able to lightly discharge this debt, and I will not pretend to be.

As I said, I can forgive much. There are limits. "Do unto others" works both ways.

I do appreciate your concern, but after 14 years the wounds are still as fresh as yesterday. And until justice is correctly served, those wounds will likely remain fresh until my body no longer draws breath. Sorry, that's just the way it is. That is one of my faults and weaknesses, per some Christians. Of course, some other Christians (like myself) do not necessarily see this as weakness. And we enter the age old argument of the value of justice compared with the value of mercy. Accidents happen. My step-dad did not die accidentally. Criminals should have the full weight and measure of justice poured upon them. Do the crime, do the time. Do the time, to think about what "you" did. Pay "your" debt to society, then we will talk about forgiveness. (This is aimed at that specific person, not Dondi or any other).

I'm sorry Dondi, I really should not have brought this up to begin with. I need to let this go. Thanks for trying.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Juantoo 3, that is a most open and honest reply to the question possed by the author. GOD BLESS and I hope GOD will heal those wounds for you.

 

[Dondi]

No sweat, juantoo3. I'll leave you alone after this post.

But if it is of any consolation, I'm of the opinion that God is just and will not let this man walk until he has paid the penalty, either in this life or the next. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." - Romans 12:19.

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

What about Lois Duncan? She doesn't know who shot her daughter twice in the head Sunday, July 16, 1989 (as far as I know, only the person/people who did the deed know.) The Albuquerque case is still open, albeit a cold case (as I said, it happened in 1989.) You can read about the case in her book Who Killed My Daughter? if you're interested.

How can one forgive in this case?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

But if it is of any consolation, I'm of the opinion that God is just and will not let this man walk until he has paid the penalty, either in this life or the next. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." - Romans 12:19.

Yes, I take what consolation I have from believing this.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Phyllis!

I am not familiar with this case, but it sounds close enough to my story that I can sympathize.

I struggle though. I cannot take the burdens of others as my own. Or maybe I could, and choose not to, my burden is enough. If I choose to hate every person who does wrong, it will not be long before I am consumed with hatred. I feel it is right for this mother you mention to bear the burden for her daughter. If she were within my circle of influence, perhaps I might assist her in what way I could. But I do not feel I should bear her hatred for her. That burden is hers, and it is her choice to carry it or not.

This gets sticky, because sometimes the burden does extend beyond the individual. Systemic hatred, such as WWII Germany, or legalized slave trade or apartheid, extends way beyond individual hurts. In cases such as these, perhaps a sharing of the burden is inevitable. In that much I think I see what Wiesenthal was hinting at, but I do not pretend that I know that.

We also enter another quandary with hatred and not being able to forgive. There are other crimes that elicit as much hatred as murder. What say we of a paedophile? Do we forgive? Or do we insist on justice? Do we look the other way and forgive the debt lightly without requiring some form of penance? I do think intent is a major consideration...after all, in the world as many of us know it, a man can be accused spuriously of being a paedophile, and then he must spend many years and countless dollars defending his honor against the mob mentality stirred up by gossipy neighbors and the media, fighting upstream against an overzealous legal system and politicians who want to look "hard on crime." He is, by no fault of his own, guilty by insinuation and there is little recourse to prove his innocence. This is what hatred does to us.

Oh well, until it happens to you.

This is why my hatred is focused on one individual. I cannot allow it to grow beyond that. Even if this perp who killed my step-dad were to be caught, it is only correct that this person be given fully due process to firmly and completely establish guilt before sentence is passed. I do not want blood for the mere sake of blood. I want justice, served on the correct person. I do not hate for the pleasure of hatred. That to me, is as much of a crime. Hate is a weapon, and like all weapons it must be wielded responsibly. We must guard against hating without *just* cause, and we must guard against the mob mentality of hatred. Hatred is intoxicating, and it is addicting. Too often, I see people given over to hatred without even considering these things. Only when it is too late, and the damage is done, and some poor sap serving as a scapegoat is hung from a tree, do some of the mob realize what has come over them and what they have done.

And some never see, and never learn, and jump at the chance to do it all again on the next unsuspecting sap that falls into the web...

Human nature I suppose, yet I can't help but wonder that so many of the founders of our faiths were trying to lift us above our human nature. Some of us, like me, try, but know we have limits. Some of us pretend we have no limits, and use it as excuse to do exactly what we know full well not to do.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Phyllis...That is the question posed by the author. Most faiths teach some sort of forgiveness... The question is, if you were faced with circumstances that test that faith, what would you do?

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

[/quote]yet I can't help but wonder that so many of the founders of our faiths were trying to lift us above our human nature. Some of us, like me, try, but know we have limits. Some of us pretend we have no limits, and use it as excuse to do exactly what we know full well not to do.[/quote]


I agree..It can be an exceptionally hard task to over come something that is hard wired in your systems. However, it seems that human nature also has a forgiving side and that is something that more people need to try an embrace and to teach others to do the same.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Yo!

I agree..It can be an exceptionally hard task to over come something that is hard wired in your systems. However, it seems that human nature also has a forgiving side and that is something that more people need to try an embrace and to teach others to do the same.

Yes, this is why I do not endorse hatred in any wholesale manner, for anybody. Hatred is a terrible burden to bear, the load is not light. In most things I have been able to release myself from such burden, I do try very hard to "forgive, that I may be forgiven." I was merely pointing out my one "weakness" that I struggle with.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Kindest Regards, Yo!


Yes, this is why I do not endorse hatred in any wholesale manner, for anybody. Hatred is a terrible burden to bear, the load is not light. In most things I have been able to release myself from such burden, I do try very hard to "forgive, that I may be forgiven." I was merely pointing out my one "weakness" that I struggle with.

GOD BLESS

 

[Dondi]

Back to the OP. A thought occurred to me. If this man really wanted forgiveness, it would have been little good to have just one person come to his deathbed. He would have hoped that every single person he wronged or the families of everyone he wrong would have had to lined-up outside his hospital room to forgive him.

 

[path_of_one]

I think it is odd the man asked for a random Jewish person to forgive him as well. That would be like a serial murderer asking a random victim's family member, a victim of some other murderer, to forgive him for murder. You can only ask forgiveness from God and the people you harm. I guess I can see how one can theoretically ask forgiveness from a social group that you harm, but how does that really work? Some members would forgive, some wouldn't, but the truth is you need to say you have repented to those who you directly affect, in my opinion.

I probably would have forgiven him, but I haven't been put in this situation, and I can't really know how I'd react without (God forbid) experiencing something similar. I do know that I have once been very, very hurt by someone, both physically and mentally, and I managed to forgive him. Though he never asked for forgiveness, and to the best of my knowledge, he never received justice by society for what he did. I actually do not derive any comfort from thinking he will receive justice from God, either. I find nothing about punishment for him comforting at all. It actually breaks my heart- I don't want him to suffer. I want him to be transformed. I want him to be freed from his anger and pain and the evil with which he is possessed. I want him to be saved.

Ultimately, I chose to forgive because it freed me. It was a selfish, or at least self-centered, choice. I don't know where he is, if he even has remorse; he does not know I forgave him. But I had to let go of my pain, my anger, and my fear (as best I could- the fear is the hardest thing to get rid of, in my experience). Forgiveness and trusting God to heal me was my only hope, and I thank God it worked.

I have no idea if I would be able to forgive if I had lost a loved one due to murder, or if it was a loved one that had suffered rather than me. I think in some ways, it is easier to forgive transgressions against myself than against those I love and wish to protect.

I could not ever sit with him again. I would still be afraid. But I am no longer angry, and I rarely feel any pain anymore. I screamed and cried, and eventually just got it out of my system, I guess. God was there to take it from me once I was ready to give it to Him. I only pray that His salvation one day transforms all who hurt others, in both large scale and small, that they are convicted by their own hearts and that they come to love, both for the good of humanity and for the good of their own souls.

May one day we all walk in peace...

 

[Dondi]

Only when it is too late, and the damage is done, and some poor sap serving as a scapegoat is hung from a tree, do some of the mob realize what has come over them and what they have done.

Strange. Why was I thinking of Jesus when I read this?


I keep thinking about the verse in John 20:23:

"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

That is a scary thought to think that someone won't forgive you. I wonder if one carries the guilt until those whom you've harmed forgive you. Maybe this is the "worm that never dies" and the "fire that is never quenched". It is the heart-wrenching, never-ending sense of guilt and shame one must bear for thier transgression against someone who won't forgive them. I mean, if we end up in heaven, what are we to do with those who make it to heaven who have done us wrong. Would we have the grace to forgive them then? If we didn't forgive them during our time on earth, what will make us forgive them when we get to heaven?

 

[iBrian]

I'm curious - if it's not departing from the original question, but who can actually forgive the transgressions against another?

I remember a few years back there was a story in the UK of someone breaking into a church and raping one of the female parishioners while the priest was bound and present (or something along those lines).

The priest publically forgave the man - but I remember thinking even at the time, that wasn't it for the woman to forgive - or not - the crimes against herself?

In other words, back to the original story - was the man really in a position to forgive in the first place, if he had not suffered directly at the actions of the individual SS man?

Just exploring the discussion.

And genuinely sorry to hear about your own situation, juantoo3 - my best hope that you can find a way to find peace in this adversity.

 

[Dondi]

I I do know that I have once been very, very hurt by someone, both physically and mentally, and I managed to forgive him. Though he never asked for forgiveness, and to the best of my knowledge, he never received justice by society for what he did. I actually do not derive any comfort from thinking he will receive justice from God, either. I find nothing about punishment for him comforting at all. It actually breaks my heart- I don't want him to suffer. I want him to be transformed. I want him to be freed from his anger and pain and the evil with which he is possessed. I want him to be saved.

Ultimately, I chose to forgive because it freed me. It was a selfish, or at least self-centered, choice. I don't know where he is, if he even has remorse; he does not know I forgave him. But I had to let go of my pain, my anger, and my fear (as best I could- the fear is the hardest thing to get rid of, in my experience). Forgiveness and trusting God to heal me was my only hope, and I thank God it worked.

path_of_one,

I don't think it is selfish or self-centered to choose to forgive. I understand that you forgave him because you didn't want to live with the bitterness, and I know God would not want you to live in that pain. But by releasing Him of this awful thing through forgiveness, you've enabling yourself to love others with a purer love than you've known before. It is a step in looking toward people in pity instead hatred. You've managed to turn the pain into something else. Truly, you have learned to love your enemy, which would be near impossible to do without God's love. Forgiveness releases God's love into your life so that you CAN love and have pity on your enemies.

I'm not saying that it was God's will for your to be hurt like this just so that you can learn to love your enemy, for the choice to harm lay on the one who hurt you. But I do believe that God will turn situations like tis into something positive, if we allow Him, which I believe you have.

May the peace of God rule your heart, my friend.

Love & Peace,

Dondi