Predestination vs. Free Will

[Thomas]

I could go through your post point by point and show all the places where you're being misleading about, or ignoring the points I'm making. You also take points out of context, and mix up threads of different arguments. There are places where you make emphatic points that I'm in agreement with. Even one place where you write about, and base an argument upon, what you would say if you believed in predsestination, the fact that no actual predestinationist would claim this appears to make no difference to you.
Reading your post, there are moments when I feel like pulling out my hair in frustration.

If I have misread you, I apologise. If I have failed to make myself clear, forgive my poor exegesis. I read this as a light-heated question, so was somewhat light-hearted in reply.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would appear that you don't believe that all is for the glory of God.
I am Catholic - this is precisely what I do believe.

You also seem to work from a starting point that we have free will, As far as I am concerned however (and as much as it is an affront to my philosophical ideas of why am I here? and what am I doing?) I no see no reason to believe that this is the case.
Well here we differ - I see otherwise.

People who believe in predestination do not do so because they think it is the best, or nicest, or most reasonable way to explain things. They believe it because they see it, based on the Bible, as being the real state of things.
The Latin and Orthodox Churches see it differently.

Again, I apologies if I have upset or annoyed you, mea culpa.

My own position is that of the Latin and Orthodox Churches. If you need further doctrinal clarification in that regard, I can direct you to the relevant paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Thomas

 

[cavalier]

Again, I apologies if I have upset or annoyed you, mea culpa.

That's quite alright. I guess it's all too apparent that I was irritated before, but after reading those words, how can I stay that way?

My own position is that of the Latin and Orthodox Churches. If you need further doctrinal clarification in that regard, I can direct you to the relevant paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Thanks very much, I would find that interesting.

Andy

 

[winner08]

While looking through these forums I have seen a few posts talk about free-will within Christianity, however I have never seen anybody either refute free-will, or refer to predestination.

The Christian upbringing and education I had taught that the Bible clearly states that free-will does not exist, that God predestined who would be saved and who would not, that all that has been done and all that will be done is purely to reveal the glory of God. The problem for me in this is that, if some are chosen, then some necessarily are chosen to be damned to Hell. I am inclined to say that I will not worship such a God, a God who creates life that will be tortured eternally so that his own glory will be shown more clearly.

However, just because I do not like this, does mean that is not the real state of things, consider these texts:

Romans 8:30 ..those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me...It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me..."

Ephesians 1:4 ..he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world
v.12 ..so that we...might live for the praise of his glory.


What thoughts do any of you have on this?

First let me say thank you Lord for predestination. Yes Cavalier there is no such thing as free will or free choice. It is all done according to God's Will. I have been catching some flack on this subject. I have some fantastic news for you. You said that if one is not chosen by God to be saved then God will send that person to a hell where one will suffer torment and torture for all enternity. (forever and ever).

Wrong! Just as in the mythical free will and free choice there is also the mythical hell that's right there is no such place. This is nothing more than man made doctrain. You heard me correctly and I will prove it to you through scriptures.

Let me say I agree with you I would not worship a god who would send most of all of humanity to hell.

I have posted scripture on hell on another page I will find it for you then you can read it for your self. Oh I almost forgot Godd will save ALL of mankind. Not some not a few not just the ones who believe in Him but everbody. Ihave many scripture to back that up also.

Darren

 

[winner08]

While looking through these forums I have seen a few posts talk about free-will within Christianity, however I have never seen anybody either refute free-will, or refer to predestination.

The Christian upbringing and education I had taught that the Bible clearly states that free-will does not exist, that God predestined who would be saved and who would not, that all that has been done and all that will be done is purely to reveal the glory of God. The problem for me in this is that, if some are chosen, then some necessarily are chosen to be damned to Hell. I am inclined to say that I will not worship such a God, a God who creates life that will be tortured eternally so that his own glory will be shown more clearly.

However, just because I do not like this, does mean that is not the real state of things, consider these texts:

Romans 8:30 ..those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 6:44-45 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me...It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me..."

Ephesians 1:4 ..he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world
v.12 ..so that we...might live for the praise of his glory.


What thoughts do any of you have on this?

Hi cavalier, I have great news for you first of all you are right, there is no such thing as free will or free choice, both are caused by something or someone. The Lord puts circumstandses in our lives and we make the choices which is call cause and effect. Everything we do is cause by this.

I have more good news. Just as the mythical free will and free choice there is also two more myths I would like to tell you about.

#1 the myth of hell. There is no such place where a persons soul will burn and be tormented and torture for all enternity.

#2 The myth that God can only save a small part of humanity. God will save all. I mean every single person who ever lived and is going to live.

#3 last but not least there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

for proof check our the scriptures I posted in this same section(christianity) under the thread God will save all. I believe ther scriptures on hell is in that same thread.

Darren

 

[winner08]

Hi cavalier, I have great news for you first of all you are right, there is no such thing as free will or free choice, both are caused by something or someone. The Lord puts circumstandses in our lives and we make the choices which is call cause and effect. Everything we do is cause by this.

I have more good news. Just as the mythical free will and free choice there is also two more myths I would like to tell you about.

#1 the myth of hell. There is no such place where a persons soul will burn and be tormented and torture for all enternity.

#2 The myth that God can only save a small part of humanity. God will save all. I mean every single person who ever lived and is going to live.

#3 last but not least there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

for proof check our the scriptures I posted in this same section(christianity) under the thread God will save all. I believe ther scriptures on hell is in that same thread.

Darren

Calavier sorry for the 2x post I just wanted to tell you to check out the thread called bible truths by Auzre24 Where it is talked about in detail in scripture of the correct translation of the word Hell and forever and ever. Also He speaks on a few things that you are intersted in check it out

#1 God will save all by winner08
#2 Bible-truths by auzre24
you won't be sorry

Thanks
Darren

 

[Quahom1]

"I refuse to dance", said the marionette as he cut his own strings, much to the dismay and sadness of the puppeteer...

 

[jpacheco]

*sigh*

I don't know how many times I've gotten into this kind of discussion in another forum website. I really hope this doesn't turn into a spat between freewill and predestination advocates. Things can often turn nasty.

But it is a legitimate question, and I will try to answer as best i can. I happen to be a free will advocate. But I qualify this by saying that I believe our free will is limited. I think God is in control and that He has a destined purpose for mankind in general. For example, an arbitrary perusal of the book of Revelation will indicate that something heavy will eventually come down. That there will be someday a massive change to the world in what's known as a New Heaven and a New Earth. It is God working in the macronism of the world. But I also believe that God gives a certain leeway in the micronism as individuals, particularly in the manner of the choice to worship Him or not. To violate such a choice would reduce us to automons who are compelled to do His bidding. But I don't think this is what God intended for us. For God to love us means the reciprocal risk of us rejecting that love in hopes that we would accept and return that love. If we aren't able to freely love God, then what is the point?

When in engaging in a subject such as this, it is important that we execise proper hermanetics is our exegesis of certain passages. It is instructive to learn for example, the audience the particular book is intended and to take whatever passage of scripture in context with the surrounding scriptures.

Let's take, for example, the first verse you quote:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30

This appears to be a verse about predestination, and I can see by itself it would appear so. But note that the verse begins with the word "moreover". This tells me that this a continuing discussion off the verses before it. So lets take it in context:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30

Now the idea is a bit more complete. It starts out with God's foreknowledge, that is, God knows the ones who will come to Him. But this foreknowledge is not imply causuallity, but rather foresight of the ones who will believe in Him. God knows the end from the beginning, He is the Alpha and Omega, so He knows who will choose Him, not that His has already choosen them.

BUT, now that He knows who will choose Him, these are the ones who will benefit from His plan for all who come to Him. As a collective group, His plan from the foundation of the world is to conform them into the image of Christ. He has predestined Christians as a whole to be called according to His purpose and justified and glorified. Do you see the difference here?

Back up to Romans 8:28:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

See, it is those that love God who are called according to His purpose, not the other way around.

The same principle can be applied to Ephesians 1:1-5, 12 and the following verses:

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Notice that in the introduction Paul is addressing the saints, those who have already chosen God, those who have already been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. He is talking to those who are already Christians. It is in that context that we are predestined for the adoption as children before the foundation of the world. Paul is talking about all saints presently in Ephesis. Verse 12 even says, "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." So those who first trusted in Christ, God has made the promise to them that they will be holy and without blame in love. It was God's plan since the foundation if the world for Christians for this.

I will get to John 6:44-45 in my next post.

"See, it is those that love God who are called according to His purpose, not the other way around." You miss 1 John 4:6: "Herein is love, not that we love God, but that He loved us, and sent His only Son to be propitiation for our sins." So you see, God loved us first before we did. It means that God did not predestined us because He knew we were going to love Him. He did it out of His pure love.

 

[jpacheco]

While looking through these forums I have seen a few posts talk about free-will within Christianity, however I have never seen anybody either refute free-will, or refer to predestination.

I personally believe that predestination and free will go hand by hand. A saved person accepts Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour deliberately. However, in John 6:37 the Scripture says that "All the Father gives me shall come to me; and he who comes to me I will by no means cast out." To me this means that a person who takes a decision for Christ does not do it on his own innitiative but on the Father's initiative. This is supported in John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." It is not us that take the step to go to the Son and accept Him, but the Father draws us to His Son.

There are many verses that point that God predestined us for salvation and I do not think He did that because He foresaw the ones that would believe or the faith of men. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Does this mean that God was unfair to choose only few and not others? The answer is NO. Does it mean that because God predestined people for salvation they do not have a choice? Absolutely not. In fact, every man and woman takes a decision in terms of eternity, but their decision is one and the same: the rejection of Christ and His gift. So, God gave humanity a choice and we all took the same choice: condemnation. This means that we do have free will. But because humanity chose to reject God, in His love he predestined some for salvation. Those who are condemned have not been preordained for damnation. They, as we did, chose the condemnation.

 

[Dondi]

"See, it is those that love God who are called according to His purpose, not the other way around." You miss 1 John 4:6: "Herein is love, not that we love God, but that He loved us, and sent His only Son to be propitiation for our sins." So you see, God loved us first before we did. It means that God did not predestined us because He knew we were going to love Him. He did it out of His pure love.

Showing someone love does not violate their free will. If you love a woman, there is no guarantee she will love you back...unless you have "Love Potion #9", which I don't think is the way God operates here. Our salvation is contigent to our response to the invitation.

BTW, Welcome to the Interfaith forums, jpacheco.

 

[winner08]

While looking through these forums I have seen a few posts talk about free-will within Christianity, however I have never seen anybody either refute free-will, or refer to predestination.

I personally believe that predestination and free will go hand by hand. A saved person accepts Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour deliberately. However, in John 6:37 the Scripture says that "All the Father gives me shall come to me; and he who comes to me I will by no means cast out." To me this means that a person who takes a decision for Christ does not do it on his own innitiative but on the Father's initiative. This is supported in John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." It is not us that take the step to go to the Son and accept Him, but the Father draws us to His Son.

There are many verses that point that God predestined us for salvation and I do not think He did that because He foresaw the ones that would believe or the faith of men. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Does this mean that God was unfair to choose only few and not others? The answer is NO. Does it mean that because God predestined people for salvation they do not have a choice? Absolutely not. In fact, every man and woman takes a decision in terms of eternity, but their decision is one and the same: the rejection of Christ and His gift. So, God gave humanity a choice and we all took the same choice: condemnation. This means that we do have free will. But because humanity chose to reject God, in His love he predestined some for salvation. Those who are condemned have not been preordained for damnation. They, as we did, chose the condemnation.

I have caught alot of flack on this forum because I do not believe that God gave man a free will. There are many scriptures to prove that God works His will through man. That Gods will, will be done in every single case. Not mans will. Man can not go against God;s intentions. Now man can choose not to do Gods will but that is only because God allowes it. God already knows before hand who will choose to go against His Will, but it is not without Gods foreknowledge. God choose certain people to be blind and not understand Him and God also choose who He grants the wisdom to see and understand Him. I would also say just because I believe that man does not have free will, God did give man the abilty to make his choices. But not one of the billions and billions of choices we make has never shocked or suprised God for He already knows the choices we make before hand.

 

[jpacheco]

Showing someone love does not violate their free will. If you love a woman, there is no guarantee she will love you back...unless you have "Love Potion #9", which I don't think is the way God operates here. Our salvation is contigent to our response to the invitation.

BTW, Welcome to the Interfaith forums, jpacheco.

We do have free will. However, in our free will we all have chosen not to follow or love God; you can see it in Romans 3:10-12. If it wasn't because of God's infinite love and mercy, we would have no hope.

 

[Dondi]

We do have free will. However, in our free will we all have chosen not to follow or love God; you can see it in Romans 3:10-12. If it wasn't because of God's infinite love and mercy, we would have no hope.

A little context for Romans 3:10-12. Paul here is quoting Psalm 14, which in entirety reads:

1) "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4) Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5) There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6) Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7) Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad."

I first direct you to the first verse concerning the fool who says there is no God. These are the ones to whom the Psalmist address that do not seek after God and none are righteous.

In verse 4, this group of fools are also called workers of iniquity, so up to now, we are talking in verses 1-4 a specific group of people, but in the middle of verse 4, there is a shift...that to my people, for whom the workers of iniquity eat as bread. In other words, one group is the opressor of another group.

My people are in great fear, for God is in the generation of the righteous. His people are those that are righteous. It's not the workers of iniquity that are in great fear, for they don't even believe in God.

For the Apostle Paul to catagorically place every human being in the group of "There is none righteous, no not one", he would also have to call everyone atheists, for the start of the Psalm is that fools say there is no God, but of course this can't be the case of everyone, for the Jews, for the most part, believe in the LORD God. So, of course, would the early Christians.

So how do we reconcile this, especially in light of Romans 3:9?:

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"

The key phrase in this verse is "for we have before proved both Jews and Gentile..." Who is 'we' and where have they 'before proved'? This must be referenced to something Paul said before in his arguement.

Most of what Paul teaches in Romans 2 deals with hypocrisy. That is that the Jews hold onto their status by virtue of their heritage and traditions. But Paul said in Romans 2:28-29:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

So here are two types of Jews. One type is a Jew outwardly and one a Jew inwardly. And Romans 3:3, Paul states that there are some Jews (outward Jews) who are in unbelief. They differ from the true believing Jews. And it is this group that Paul clumps with unbelieving Gentiles in Romans 3:9. Both unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles, they all are under sin (of unbelief), none of these are righteous, none of these seek after God.

These are in direct contrast to those Jews and Gentiles who DO seek after God.

You see the difference?

 

[winner08]

"See, it is those that love God who are called according to His purpose, not the other way around." You miss 1 John 4:6: "Herein is love, not that we love God, but that He loved us, and sent His only Son to be propitiation for our sins." So you see, God loved us first before we did. It means that God did not predestined us because He knew we were going to love Him. He did it out of His pure love.

Now the idea is a bit more complete. It starts out with God's foreknowledge, that is, God knows the ones who will come to Him. But this foreknowledge is not imply causuallity, but rather foresight of the ones who will believe in Him. God knows the end from the beginning, He is the Alpha and Omega, so He knows who will choose Him, not that His has already choosen them

I wanted to reply on the last verse of this one section. you stated that He (God) knows who will choose Him, (Not that His has already choosen them).
Not that He (God) has already choosen them. If that is so then How do you explaine this very plain and simple to understrand scripture?

John 15:16 WE DO NOT choose Christ but rather HE (Christ) chooses us.
John 6:44 (NONE) can come to Christ unless God draws GK.Drags them.

These are two very plain scriptures that tells us that we do not choose God are choose to except Christ with our so called free will. Scripture plainly states it is God's will that we come or not to HIm. But I know there are many out there who just refused to believe Gods word (scripture) Without putting a twist on theses two scriptures and just take them for what is says, Gods words speaks for themselves.

 

[mee]

Christ told his disciples to preach the good news to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christians show in evangelizing?
Would it not make the preaching work essentially pointless?

As to mankind’s final destiny, the Bible teaches that there are three possibilities.



First, from among those who have accepted God’s provision for salvation, he has "called" a certain class. These ones have been destined to life in heaven and the number is fixed—144,000.

Under God’s appointed King, Jesus Christ, they will form a heavenly government for the blessing of mankind. (Romans 8:29, 30; Revelation 14:1-3; 20:1-4)

Although this class and its number have been "foreordained," this is not so respecting the individuals making it up.

It is possible that an individual might fail in living up to the heavenly calling, requiring a replacement.

Hence the warning: "Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."—Revelation 3:11; see also Matthew 24:13; Philippians 3:12, 13; 2 Peter 1:10; Jude 3-5.




The other two possibilities are for people to live forever on this earth or finally to lose life altogether.


In both cases neither the number nor the individuals have been fixed.


The choice depends on man.


As the Creator says: "Here I am putting before you people the way of life and the way of death." If a person is on the "way of death," it is not too late to change. God’s own invitation is: "Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die?" Also, if a person has chosen "the way of life," he must be careful to stay on it.



Jehovah’s Witnesses take to heart God’s warning: "When I say to the righteous one: ‘You will positively keep living,’ and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done—for this he will die."—Jeremiah 21:8; Ezekiel 33:11, 13.



A wonderful future awaits those who choose and stay on "the way of life." Either by a resurrection from the dead or by surviving into God’s New Order, they have the prospect of eternal life. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; John 11:25)

"The gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:23)​

 

[jpacheco]

Christ told his disciples to preach the good news to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christians show in evangelizing?
Would it not make the preaching work essentially pointless?

As to mankind’s final destiny, the Bible teaches that there are three possibilities. ​

First, from among those who have accepted God’s provision for salvation, he has "called" a certain class. These ones have been destined to life in heaven and the number is fixed—144,000. ​

Under God’s appointed King, Jesus Christ, they will form a heavenly government for the blessing of mankind. (Romans 8:29, 30; Revelation 14:1-3; 20:1-4) ​

Although this class and its number have been "foreordained," this is not so respecting the individuals making it up. ​

It is possible that an individual might fail in living up to the heavenly calling, requiring a replacement. ​

Hence the warning: "Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."—Revelation 3:11; see also Matthew 24:13; Philippians 3:12, 13; 2 Peter 1:10; Jude 3-5. ​

The other two possibilities are for people to live forever on this earth or finally to lose life altogether. ​

In both cases neither the number nor the individuals have been fixed. ​

The choice depends on man. ​

As the Creator says: "Here I am putting before you people the way of life and the way of death." If a person is on the "way of death," it is not too late to change. God’s own invitation is: "Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die?" Also, if a person has chosen "the way of life," he must be careful to stay on it. ​

Jehovah’s Witnesses take to heart God’s warning: "When I say to the righteous one: ‘You will positively keep living,’ and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done—for this he will die."—Jeremiah 21:8; Ezekiel 33:11, 13. ​

A wonderful future awaits those who choose and stay on "the way of life." Either by a resurrection from the dead or by surviving into God’s New Order, they have the prospect of eternal life. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; John 11:25) ​

"The gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:23) ​

We preach the Gospel to all mankind for two reasons: so no one has any excused that he did not hear about Jesus, and because we do not know who the elects are.

As for man's destiny there are only two possibilities: heaven or hell. The only way to heaven is not by any work that we can do but by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God who is also God in the flesh.

 

[mee]

As for man's destiny there are only two possibilities: heaven or hell. quote]


if you are refering to hellfire you have been well and truely misled by false religious leaders .
the God of the bible does not burn people in hellfire,

And as the most high JEHOVAH said,

listen TO HIS SON luke 9;35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.”





and this is what JESUS said in matthew 5;5
“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.



“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell.

The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.” Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.