what convinced you your faith is the truth?

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imranshaykh said:
The issue in Iran is a political one and not concerned with religion. Every country has its own sets of laws, and citizens of the country and expected to follow it. The majority of the leaders in Iran and its citizens do not want Bahais there. So be it.
Click to expand...

So in short, you OPPOSE the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (signed by Iran, please note!), and in particular its clauses calling for freedom of religion and conscience!

How sad that you're so comfortable supporting persecution of this sort. . . .

Bruce
 
Just a quick pointer on this thread - it would be nice to keep the discussion on actual on issues that invite a Baha'i point of view.

However, if the Baha'i point of view doesn't suffice, please let's not keep pushing the point.

CR isn't here to prove any religion right or wrong. There are theological differences between many faiths.

In that regard, it's up to individuals to determine where they stand on such issues, and accept or reject such invited points of view - but it's not for individuals to keep pushing the point of view that any particular point of view is inherently wrong. :)

Either we can take this discussion somewhere more constructive, or I'll simply have to close the thread.
 
"Also, consider this - Iran allows Sunnis, Parsis, Hindus to live and work. Why would they not allow their own people to stay there peacefully unless they had a strong reason to do so. For every case they you will name, there will be a case where Iran has caught Bahais spying or indulging in anti-national activities. Shiasm is a state religion in Iran. Shiasm and Bahaism are at loggerheads with each other. Their basic tenets do not match. Bahais twist the Quran and misinterpret the traditions, or whatever traditions they accept at their convenience. I can see it in my discussion with the Bahais in this forum. but I cant do anything about it. I patiently reply at this forum. But it is a government of powerful people in Iran. They do not have my patience. But again, they dont want to kill Bahais. They say, Bahais, go in peace. But Bahais want to stay there and do whatever they want to do. So the government says, sorry, its not going to happen. So wait till the government changes and then if the new goverment will permit Bahais in Iran, so be it. I am not going to question the decisions of governments. I too have my compulsions at y work place. But the law of the land rules. At least till such time that the Mahdi of Islam arrives."

Whether or not this attitude is acceptable in international law, I would point out one thing:

To leave Iran, one must obtain travel permits which require one to declare one's religion, and the option to officially record one's religion as Baha`i is specifically denied ANYONE.

So the only way to legally leave Iran is to declare one's self to NOT be Baha`i.

How is this different from the Nazi government's denial of exit for Jews during the Third Reich. The government of Iran says "Go!", but they deny the legal right to leave.

-------------------------------------

Dear Brian,

If you DO close this thread, please don't allow Imranshaykh the last word.

Regards,
Scott
 
Well I think sometime ago I felt that this thread had been compromised from it's original purpose ...

It is not just a political issue though when the Holy places of our Faith and site of pilgrimage such as the House of the Bab was seized and destroyed by fanatic elements in Shiraz or when the Baha'i National Center in Teheran was taken over or when Baha'i cemetaries were desecrated or when people cannot practise their own religion.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides for freedom of belief and the right of people to change their beliefs.

Saying that this thread has been allowed to be shifted from it's original purpose.

- Art
 
BruceDLimber said:
So in short, you OPPOSE the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (signed by Iran, please note!), and in particular its clauses calling for freedom of religion and conscience!

How sad that you're so comfortable supporting persecution of this sort. . . .

Bruce
Click to expand...

C'mon, Muslims are persecuted all over the world. Bahaism is a world religion. Look at the official Bahai web site. Why is there nothing about Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine....c'mon, give me a break. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights itself is a political document - all countries signed it. Despite that you have Britan and Denmark opposing a veil - c'mon a woman wants to cover herself! Let her do it. France banned the headscarf, Why? Were these not signatories to the document. I hope we all are far more mature to understand what political compulsions are.

I am as human as you are or as any Bahai is. Of course, we are affected when humans are persecuted. But we dont have double standards. Again, I have to remind myself - I am not going to enter into this discussion. Lets focus on the Bab being the Mahdi from Islamic and Bahai sources.

Regards
Imran
 
Popeyesays said:
"Also, consider this - Iran allows Sunnis, Parsis, Hindus to live and work. Why would they not allow their own people to stay there peacefully unless they had a strong reason to do so. For every case they you will name, there will be a case where Iran has caught Bahais spying or indulging in anti-national activities. Shiasm is a state religion in Iran. Shiasm and Bahaism are at loggerheads with each other. Their basic tenets do not match. Bahais twist the Quran and misinterpret the traditions, or whatever traditions they accept at their convenience. I can see it in my discussion with the Bahais in this forum. but I cant do anything about it. I patiently reply at this forum. But it is a government of powerful people in Iran. They do not have my patience. But again, they dont want to kill Bahais. They say, Bahais, go in peace. But Bahais want to stay there and do whatever they want to do. So the government says, sorry, its not going to happen. So wait till the government changes and then if the new goverment will permit Bahais in Iran, so be it. I am not going to question the decisions of governments. I too have my compulsions at y work place. But the law of the land rules. At least till such time that the Mahdi of Islam arrives."

Whether or not this attitude is acceptable in international law, I would point out one thing:

To leave Iran, one must obtain travel permits which require one to declare one's religion, and the option to officially record one's religion as Baha`i is specifically denied ANYONE.

So the only way to legally leave Iran is to declare one's self to NOT be Baha`i.

How is this different from the Nazi government's denial of exit for Jews during the Third Reich. The government of Iran says "Go!", but they deny the legal right to leave.

-------------------------------------

Dear Brian,

If you DO close this thread, please don't allow Imranshaykh the last word.

Regards,
Scott
Click to expand...


I am not here thankfully to draft international law. That is best left to people who probably understand things better than myself. Having said that, you wanted my view on Iran, I gave it. Now give me your view on the Bahai espionage case currently in India.

Forget for one moment that Bahais are involved. What sentence would you propose for treason to one's country - a country which gave you shelter when all others forsook you?

I await your response.

Regards, as always
Imran
 
arthra said:
Well I think sometime ago I felt that this thread had been compromised from it's original purpose ...

It is not just a political issue though when the Holy places of our Faith and site of pilgrimage such as the House of the Bab was seized and destroyed by fanatic elements in Shiraz or when the Baha'i National Center in Teheran was taken over or when Baha'i cemetaries were desecrated or when people cannot practise their own religion.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides for freedom of belief and the right of people to change their beliefs.

Saying that this thread has been allowed to be shifted from it's original purpose.

- Art
Click to expand...

Art, I could not agree more. I entered this thread discussing about the Bab being the Mahdi. I remember writing a large mail with some 8-9 points. You never got back to me and see, I got diverted. you want to come back to that? To establish how for the love of God can the bahais establish that the Bab was the Mahdi from Islamic and Bahai sources.

Regards
Imran
 
imranshaykh said:
Art, I could not agree more. I entered this thread discussing about the Bab being the Mahdi. I remember writing a large mail with some 8-9 points. You never got back to me and see, I got diverted. you want to come back to that? To establish can the bahais establish that the Bab was the Mahdi from Islamic and Bahai sources.

Regards
Imran
Click to expand...


You didn't agree that the treatment of Baha`i's in Iran is barbaric, i notice.

I also notice that you are challenging, not questioning. ". . . how for the love of God . . ." is a challenge, not a question.

From Baha`i sources is not the issue.

Baha`i sources are clear:
"O PEOPLES of the earth! By the righteousness of God, this Book hath, through the potency of the sovereign Truth, pervaded the earth and the heaven with the mighty Word 60 of God concerning Him Who is the supreme Testimony, the Expected Qá'im, and verily God hath knowledge of all things. This divinely-inspired Book hath firmly established His Proof for all those who are in the East and in the West, hence beware lest ye utter aught but the truth regarding God, for I swear by your Lord that this supreme Proof of Mine beareth witness unto all things...
O servants of God! Be ye patient, for, God grant, He Who is the sovereign Truth will suddenly appear amongst you, invested with the power of the mighty Word, and ye shall then be confounded by the Truth itself, and ye shall have no power to ward it off;[1] and verily I am a witness over all mankind. Chapter LIX.
[1 cf. Qur'án 21:40 ]"
"These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Qá'im. The purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest. And this Faith -- the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest -- in its turn, together with all the Revelations gone before it, have as their object the Manifestation destined to succeed it"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105)

"For today the Bayan is in the stage of seed; at the beginning of the manifestation of Him Whom God shall make manifest its ultimate perfection will become apparent. He is made manifest in order to gather the fruits of the trees He hath planted; even as the Revelation of the Qá'im [He Who ariseth], a descendant of Muhammad -- may the blessings of God rest upon Him -- is exactly like unto the Revelation of the Apostle of God Himself [Muhammad]. He appeareth not, save for the purpose of gathering the fruits of Islam from the Qur'ánic verses which He [Muhammad] hath sown in the hearts of men."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 107)

There are many more. I can provide them if you like.

I pointed out to you that it is impossible for a Baha`i to leave Iran today without foreswearing his faith as a condition of departure. How do you react to that?

Regards,
Scott

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 59)
 
At the outset, I dont want you to believe that the Bahai Faith is in error. What you believe is your problem not mine. I will lie alone in my grave and you in yours. Depending who is right, the Holy Prophet or Bahaullah, our fate will be decided.
[If only it were that easy my friend.]

And please dont try to insult our Prophet by telling me that Bahaullah said the same thing as the Prophet of Islam.
["There is no compulsion in religion"]Bahais agree with that.Although I do understand what you mean comparing one or two things does not mean both religions are the completely the "same". Remember the Bahai Faith's objectives are to recognize the Divine Truth in religions and to bring peace to the world. Not abrogate or annihilate 1400 years worth of Islamic religious experience.

The Prophet said that there will be a real Hell with real fire and a real paradise with real houses. Not that there will be a spiritual hell and paradise.
[Unfortunately none of us have scientific evidence of what exactly paradise and hell are like, so its one interpretation verses the other. One could only try to appeal to the sense that one interpretation may be more reasonable than the other.]
Anyways that is a separate discussion. Bahais have this beautiful external demeanour and they say we accept Prophet Mohammed and then systematically demean him by rejecting all his traditions because none of them fit what Bahaullah said. [That may be a valid opinion,but the Bahais accept the That there is no God but God and Muhamad is His Prophet. Thats more than almost all the people in the world besides Muslims are willing to accept.]
So please credit us with some intelligence. I know what you mean when you say you accept the Holy Prophet. [Your intelligent. Of course one might ask am I intelligent enough to recognize someones intelligence? This may be the real issue of relgious studies.]

The issue in Iran is a political one and not concerned with religion. Every country has its own sets of laws and citizens of the country and expected to follow it. The majority of the leaders in Iran and its citizens do not want Bahais there. So be it. It happens in all countries. The French banned headscarves in France, there is a veil issue in Britan. If the laws of the country do not permit something and if a majority of the citizens of the country choose to support or not support it, then all must fall in line.
[I dont want to debate politics either, but not allowing someone to wear headscarves and denying someone the right to breathe(killing them) are, for most people, two very different things]
If you want to practice your Faith, any Faith, then go to a country that permits you to do that till such time your home country allows you to do it too.[Many Iranian Bahais have.]

A person may want to stay in Saudi Arabia and enjoy his glass of beer which is considered acceptable, and in some cases, one may even say that it is is man's human right that he should be allowed to drink.
[Human beer rights are different than not allowing someone to go to school or to work at their job or destroying their cemetaries and exhuming the bodies.]

Bahais propagate their religion all over the world. but they are not permitted in Israel. Why dont you question that?
[ I think the Bahais made that choice in an agreement. Unfortunately in Iran the National Spiritual Assembly magically dissapeared into the night. Not much of a choice at all. I'd question that too.]

Also, consider this - Iran allows Sunnis, Parsis, Hindus to live and work. Why would they not allow their own people to stay there peacefully unless they had a strong reason to do so.
[Yes they do have strong reasons. Just like Saddam had strong reasons to attack Iran in the eighties. This doesnt mean the reasons are morally correct much less justified.]
For every case they you will name, there will be a case where Iran has caught Bahais spying or indulging in anti-national activities
[I cannot attest to the truth or untruth of such accusations. But if true it is contrary to Bahai teachings.""We must obey and be the well-wishers of the governments of the land, regard disloyalty to a just king as disloyalty to God Himself and wishing evil to the government a transgression of the Cause of God."-Abdu'l-Baha]
. Shiasm is a state religion in Iran. Shiasm and Bahaism are at loggerheads with each other. Their basic tenets do not match.
[Both believe in God and that Muhammad as His Messenger. And that Husayn was the legitimate leader intended by Muhammad after the Holy Prophet's ascension.]
Bahais twist the Quran and misinterpret the traditions, or whatever traditions they accept at their convenience. [Could be true but there are some legitimate claims to alternate interpretations.]
But again, they dont want to kill Bahais.
[There past actions don't convince me that may necessarily be the case]

I am not going to question the decisions of governments. I too have my compulsions at y work place. But the law of the land rules.
[Many Bahais have been forced from their workplace.]


Traditions tell us that the Mahdi would not be subjugated by any government and Allah will transform the conditions of his adherents in the course of a night.
[Mulla Husayn was spiritually transformed over the course of a night. And no government could stop the Faith from spreading throughout the world. Of course thats just a case of one interpretation versus another.]
Yet more than 200 years have passed. The Mahdi of the Bahais was shot by his government. His successor was exiled and died in jail. Most of the adherents crib how their brothers are under subjugation. Where is that justice, where is that equality?

[I think these are questions that should be directed towards those who carried out the persecutions.]

Bab has come and gone, so have Bahaullah and Abdul Baha and Shoghi.
[the Bahai Faith has started out from obscurity in Iran to spreading throughout the world. Muhammad also has come and gone but his religion has spread to at least a billion people.]

Read the case in India. I was not talking about religious freedom. Bahais - not ordinary ones like yourself, but the trustees of the National Spiritual Assembly of India have been caught and are currently out on bail on charges of spying for Iran and Israel. There is a charge of fraud - they made more than 80 passports and stole defence secrets. Again, not ordinary Bahais, But the leaders themselves. one of them was caught escaping to Columbia. Is this a reflection of what Bahais do at the NSA level throughout the world?

[Baha'u'llah says "Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues." Bahais are enjoined to be loyal and truthful to their government.
Ill leave the truth of the matter to those who are in charge of investigating it. If the Bahais are indeed guilty than let them pay the consequences that the law demands. But if they are not guilty, than God will bear witness to their innocence.
Read the case on my web site. You will not have to shuffle. It is right there on the homepage where any visitor can easily find it.
[I have seen your webpage before, and I find it easy to navigate. Its a decent setup although the search function is kind of weird, and some links just end up using the search function. Overall I find it comprehensive in the list of topics it discusses of the relationship between Islam and the Bahai Faith. Although as you know I would object to much of its content.]

I am really not too keen to discuss political issues. I just wrote this entire essay as I had some time right now. I am not a politician. I am a student. What interests me is to hear how you can explain how the Bab was the Mahdi from Islamic and Bahai sources. So let talk about that.

[Yes I dont really like to discuss political issues either. Im not sure if there really should be a debate here or not. Your website has brought up many topics and it would be hard to discuss all of them right here. It seems like this thread is taking its last breaths anyway. I am also interested in learning about the claims of the Bab. And by the way. May Allah guide you in your studies]
 
Somehow I posted twice. As for the accusations in India. It seems to be a complaint from the former employees of the temple.
It would be interesting to know if these employees are Bahais or not. As far as I can tell it is a complaint and the court of law has not sentenced anyone yet.
 
I really wanted to tell my story concerning what convinced me of the truth of Baha'u'llah, but since this thread has been hi-jacked by a polite hijacker, I feel it would be counterproductive. I cannot believe I just read 9 pages of driveling questions that when taken as a whole were obviously meant to cause disunity, but only seemed to underline a person with an agenda. Is anybody else tired of this?
 
Mick said:
I really wanted to tell my story concerning what convinced me of the truth of Baha'u'llah, but since this thread has been hi-jacked by a polite hijacker, I feel it would be counterproductive. I cannot believe I just read 9 pages of driveling questions that when taken as a whole were obviously meant to cause disunity, but only seemed to underline a person with an agenda. Is anybody else tired of this?
Click to expand...

Way tired. I have a very low opinion of that individual's motives and behavior.
I would welcome this thread being pruned or closed as long as that poster's comments and slurs are not the last thing to be read.
I would love to hear your story, why not start another thread?

Regards,
Scott
 
Scott,

Good idea. I will start a new thread and call it "Declaration Stories". Hope others will join in.

Mick
 
Popeyesays said:
You didn't agree that the treatment of Baha`i's in Iran is barbaric, i notice.

I also notice that you are challenging, not questioning. ". . . how for the love of God . . ." is a challenge, not a question.

From Baha`i sources is not the issue.

Baha`i sources are clear:
"O PEOPLES of the earth! By the righteousness of God, this Book hath, through the potency of the sovereign Truth, pervaded the earth and the heaven with the mighty Word 60 of God concerning Him Who is the supreme Testimony, the Expected Qá'im, and verily God hath knowledge of all things. This divinely-inspired Book hath firmly established His Proof for all those who are in the East and in the West, hence beware lest ye utter aught but the truth regarding God, for I swear by your Lord that this supreme Proof of Mine beareth witness unto all things...
O servants of God! Be ye patient, for, God grant, He Who is the sovereign Truth will suddenly appear amongst you, invested with the power of the mighty Word, and ye shall then be confounded by the Truth itself, and ye shall have no power to ward it off;[1] and verily I am a witness over all mankind. Chapter LIX.
[1 cf. Qur'án 21:40 ]"
"These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Qá'im. The purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest. And this Faith -- the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest -- in its turn, together with all the Revelations gone before it, have as their object the Manifestation destined to succeed it"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105)

"For today the Bayan is in the stage of seed; at the beginning of the manifestation of Him Whom God shall make manifest its ultimate perfection will become apparent. He is made manifest in order to gather the fruits of the trees He hath planted; even as the Revelation of the Qá'im [He Who ariseth], a descendant of Muhammad -- may the blessings of God rest upon Him -- is exactly like unto the Revelation of the Apostle of God Himself [Muhammad]. He appeareth not, save for the purpose of gathering the fruits of Islam from the Qur'ánic verses which He [Muhammad] hath sown in the hearts of men."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 107)

There are many more. I can provide them if you like.

I pointed out to you that it is impossible for a Baha`i to leave Iran today without foreswearing his faith as a condition of departure. How do you react to that?

Regards,
Scott

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 59)
Click to expand...

C'mon, all these are from the Selected Writings of Bab - from which book of the Bab were these taken? Is'nt that important? Or are were just happy to accept without question whatever is dished out to us.

I have been outlining right from the outset that there are double standards at play regarding the Bab. Systematically the writings of the Bab are being kept away.

In probably 10 years, no book of the Bab will be available and probably even the position of the Bab altered to suit the new Bahai doctrine. I have been seeing the official Bahai web site for more than 10 years now. How the position of the Bab was changed from the Mahdi to an independent prophet - where did the Bab claim to be an independent prophet in his life?

The only book of the Bab which is available "officially" from the Bahais, despite the Bab himself being a key personality, is Selected Writings of the Bab, which are well, very very well selected writings from Bab from his books which are labelled forged or prejudiced. Yet the Bahais have carefully selected some statements from the Bab and taken it as gospel truth, yet denied the authenticity of those very books from which the statements are taken.

Ironically, one of the miracles claimed by the Bab in his examination of Tabriz was that he was prolific in "revealing" verses. And today just a handful of verses (as claimed by the Bahais) remain in force. What a shame.

Prior to the Bab, Muslims waited for more than a thousand years for the arrival of the Mahdi. And the Mahdi came and went and none of his writings in their original languages remain? What a shame.

Bad luck for Muslims. Neither did the Muslims outside Iran come to know that a Mahdi has come and gone and now even if they want to know what he said, his books are not available. What a shame.

Really poor execution by Allah that He did not make available the writings of his representative the Bab when the revelation of his predecessor - Hazrat Mohammed remained in force for more than 1400 years. What a shame.

Allah protected the revelation of Mohammed for more than 1400 years but could protect the revelation of the Bab for even 100 years. What a shame.

Strange is'nt it. You can call me prejudiced, biased whatever. But ironically, everybody seems to have the books of the Bab except for the Bahais themselves. There are Universites funded by non Muslims which have painstakingly collected the books, researchers like Juan Cole who have hosted the books of the Bab on their web sites, but....no sir, the Bahais dont have these books. Since 1976, they are still translating and deciphering the words of the Bab. The Bayan is absent, Dalaelus Sabah is absent, Tafseer's Kausar which Shoghi refers to in God Passes By is missing and so is Sahifae Adaliyah. Every book of the Bab is a forgery? Every book? I bring you references from 6-7 books of the Bab and I can produce more where the Bab says unilaterally, clearly, unquivocally and without any ambiguity that he is not the Mahdi. And all of these are forgeries. All of them?? Who are you guys fooling?

I dont think you want people to read the books of the Bab. How many Bahais I receive on my web site who have never even heard of these books leave alone know in which language they were written. And it is being drilled into them that these books are forgeries. Amazing media machinery this. Labelling these books as forgeries is a very good way to dissuade people from even considering to read the books.

10 years ago, E G Browne was the undisputed "independent" English historian who brought out the truth of Bahaism to the world through his writings. Now he is labelled a "historian with political agenda". Why? Probably because the Bahais started reading his books and found that E G Browne liked the Babis, but not Bahaullah.

In any case, can you enlighten me of the Bahai proof, apart from the claims of the Bab himself that the Bab was the Mahdi. Also, to add weight to your argument, bring me atleast one Islamic source to prove that the Bab was the Mahdi. That can be a good starting point. Also, it will help me to understand your understanding of the Islamic concept of Mahdi, which is important to me. Not many Bahais I have met even know the meaning of the Mahdi. Such is the drilling given to them by the Bahais. Also, just let me know which books of the Bab are not forgeries.

The members of this forum have been complaining that the topic of the thread is changed and want to close it. I say, close it. Scott wants to ensure that my word is not the last. Frankly, I really do not care if it is my last word or not for it really does not establish anything. The word of Allah will be the last. He repeatedly reminds us in the Quran that we are from Allah and to Him we shall return. Allah will have the last word.

Regards, as always
Imran
 
In probably 10 years, no book of the Bab will be available and probably even the position of the Bab altered to suit the new Bahai doctrine. I have been seeing the official Bahai web site for more than 10 years now. How the position of the Bab was changed from the Mahdi to an independent prophet - where did the Bab claim to be an independent prophet in his life?

"That the Bab, the inaugurator of the Babi dispensation, is fully entitled to rank as one of the self-sufficient Manifestations of God, that he has been invested with sovereign power and authority, and exercises all the rights and prerogatives of independent Prophethood.."
Shoghi Effendi
The World Order of Baha'u'llah page 123
copyright 1938

The Bahais have upheld the Bab's Prophet staus for awhile.
The webmasters of the site must be working hard on adding detailed accurate information.

"I am, I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person." ("The Dawn-Breakers", pp. 315-316)

^^After reading that, one starts to think that the Bahais assertion of the Bab's Prophethood isnt so farfetched afterall.

I bring you references from 6-7 books of the Bab and I can produce more where the Bab says unilaterally, clearly, unquivocally and without any ambiguity that he is not the Mahdi. And all of these are forgeries. All of them?? Who are you guys fooling

Bahais do have valid reason to suspect forgeries and be skeptical of certain accounts. One non-Bahai scholar chimes in about certain accounts during the Bab's examination by Muslims in Tabriz.

"And as for the Muslim accounts, those which we have before us do not bear the stamp of truth: they seem to be forgeries. Knowing what we do of the Bab it is probable that he had the best of the argument and that the doctors and functionaries who attended the meeting were unwilling to put upon record their own fiasco." (Dr. T. K. Cheyne's "The Reconciliation of Race and Religions," p. 62.)

Allah protected the revelation of Mohammed for more than 1400 years but could protect the revelation of the Bab for even 100 years. What a shame.
Since 1976, they are still translating and deciphering the words of the Bab. The Bayan is absent, Dalaelus Sabah is absent, Tafseer's Kausar which Shoghi refers to in God Passes By is missing and so is Sahifae Adaliyah.

One might say God protects whichever verses He Wills.
It was around 653 that Uthman compiled the sayings of Muhammad into the Quran. The ones decided as authentic were kept after careful investigation.
It wasn't until 1649 that an english translation of the Quran was made.(by Alexander Ross). Many wouldnt fault the Bahais for meticoulosly investigating authenticity or for not providing a full english translation of all the Bab's writings. The Bahais have two Revelations in which to translate writings from. Bahais also believe Baha'u'llah had the power to abrogate the Bab's llaws as well as uphold others(calendar). They therefore concentrate primarily on translating Baha'u'llah's writings. Not to mention the fact that just the Bab's writings alone may exceed the verses in the Quran in volume. One source states that the Bab was said to have revealed as many as 500,000 verses. see(A critical survey of the sources for early Babi Doctrine and History by Denis MacEoin)


10 years ago, E G Browne was the undisputed "independent" English historian who brought out the truth of Bahaism to the world through his writings. Now he is labelled a "historian with political agenda". Why?

Someone graciously supplied us evidence earlier that E.G. Browne may have had a bias on certain issues. E.G. Brown is still a respected historian and scholar, its just that there is evidence that his personal beliefs may have interfered when it came to support for the Azalis..

The word of Allah will be the last.

"For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. "
-Al Quran
 
Promethium said:
In probably 10 years, no book of the Bab will be available and probably even the position of the Bab altered to suit the new Bahai doctrine. I have been seeing the official Bahai web site for more than 10 years now. How the position of the Bab was changed from the Mahdi to an independent prophet - where did the Bab claim to be an independent prophet in his life?

"That the Bab, the inaugurator of the Babi dispensation, is fully entitled to rank as one of the self-sufficient Manifestations of God, that he has been invested with sovereign power and authority, and exercises all the rights and prerogatives of independent Prophethood.."
Shoghi Effendi
The World Order of Baha'u'llah page 123
copyright 1938

The Bahais have upheld the Bab's Prophet staus for awhile.
The webmasters of the site must be working hard on adding detailed accurate information.

"I am, I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person." ("The Dawn-Breakers", pp. 315-316)

^^After reading that, one starts to think that the Bahais assertion of the Bab's Prophethood isnt so farfetched afterall.

MY POINT IS THAT THE BAB NEVER MADE THE CLAIM. THE CLAIM EVOLVED MUCH MUCH LATER - EVEN BAHAULLAH DID NOT CLAIM THAT BAB WAS A PROPHET.

THE QUOTATION WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN FROM DAWN BREAKERS IS CORRECT. HOWEVER IT IS OUT OF CONTEXT. READ DAWN BREAKERS AGAIN. THE QUOTATION IS GIVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF BAB BEING THE MAHDI OF ISLAM, A POINT WHICH I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CLARIFY.

BAB DID NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHET. THE BAHAIS ELEVATED HIM TO THAT PEDESTAL.

I bring you references from 6-7 books of the Bab and I can produce more where the Bab says unilaterally, clearly, unquivocally and without any ambiguity that he is not the Mahdi. And all of these are forgeries. All of them?? Who are you guys fooling

Bahais do have valid reason to suspect forgeries and be skeptical of certain accounts. One non-Bahai scholar chimes in about certain accounts during the Bab's examination by Muslims in Tabriz.

"And as for the Muslim accounts, those which we have before us do not bear the stamp of truth: they seem to be forgeries. Knowing what we do of the Bab it is probable that he had the best of the argument and that the doctors and functionaries who attended the meeting were unwilling to put upon record their own fiasco." (Dr. T. K. Cheyne's "The Reconciliation of Race and Religions," p. 62.)

THESE ARE NOT MUSLIM ACCOUNTS. MUSLIMS COULD NOT CARE LESS ABOUT THE BAB. HIS RELIGION DID NOT SPREAD MUCH DURING HIS PERIOD. HOW MANY PEOPLE OUTSIDE IRAN KNEW OF THE BAB, MUCH LESS THOSE IN IRAN. WHAT I AM REFERRING TO IS THE BOOKS OF THE BAB HIMSELF.

Allah protected the revelation of Mohammed for more than 1400 years but could protect the revelation of the Bab for even 100 years. What a shame.
Since 1976, they are still translating and deciphering the words of the Bab. The Bayan is absent, Dalaelus Sabah is absent, Tafseer's Kausar which Shoghi refers to in God Passes By is missing and so is Sahifae Adaliyah.

One might say God protects whichever verses He Wills.
It was around 653 that Uthman compiled the sayings of Muhammad into the Quran. The ones decided as authentic were kept after careful investigation.
It wasn't until 1649 that an english translation of the Quran was made.(by Alexander Ross). Many wouldnt fault the Bahais for meticoulosly investigating authenticity or for not providing a full english translation of all the Bab's writings. The Bahais have two Revelations in which to translate writings from. Bahais also believe Baha'u'llah had the power to abrogate the Bab's llaws as well as uphold others(calendar). They therefore concentrate primarily on translating Baha'u'llah's writings. Not to mention the fact that just the Bab's writings alone may exceed the verses in the Quran in volume. One source states that the Bab was said to have revealed as many as 500,000 verses. see(A critical survey of the sources for early Babi Doctrine and History by Denis MacEoin)

YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN. USMAN WAS MURDERED IN 35 HIJRI - 25 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET. IS THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1400 YEARS AND 200 YEARS OR NOT? 1400 YEARS AGO, THE MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION AND TRANSPORT AND VERIFICATION WERE LESS SOPHISTICATED THAN 200 YEARS AGO? ASSUMING QURAN WAS COMPLIED DURING THE TIME OF USMAN, EVEN THEN IN SUCH A SOCIETY, THE ENTIRE QURAN WAS COMPILIED WITHIN 20 YEARS OF THE PASSING OF THE PROPHET. IN ANY CASE, USMAN COMPILATION OF THE SCRIPT IS WHAT WAS ACCEPTED AND MADE COMMON. QURAN EXISTED EVEN BEFORE THAT IN A COMPLIED FORM WITH ALI.

10 years ago, E G Browne was the undisputed "independent" English historian who brought out the truth of Bahaism to the world through his writings. Now he is labelled a "historian with political agenda". Why?

Someone graciously supplied us evidence earlier that E.G. Browne may have had a bias on certain issues. E.G. Brown is still a respected historian and scholar, its just that there is evidence that his personal beliefs may have interfered when it came to support for the Azalis..

EVIDENCE, JUST BECAUSE HE DID NOT SUPPORT THE BAHAI VIEWPOINT? SO IS HE INDEPENDENT ONLY TILL HE SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE OF THE BAHAIS?

The word of Allah will be the last.

"For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. "
-Al Quran
Click to expand...

can you give me the reference for the above verse of the quran and what exactly is the interpretation (which I suspect sadly, will be entirely your own and not that of the prophet) what did you want to convey with this verse.

Apologies for writing everything in caps. It is not meant to be rude, just wrote in caps below every point to highlight my response.

Regards
Imran
 
MY POINT IS THAT THE BAB NEVER MADE THE CLAIM. THE CLAIM EVOLVED MUCH MUCH LATER ....BAB DID NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHET. THE BAHAIS ELEVATED HIM TO THAT PEDESTAL.


But the Báb did not stop even with the claim of Mihdíhood. He adopted the sacred title of "Nuqtiyiula" or "Primal Point." This was a title applied to Muhammad Himself by His followers. Even the Imáms were secondary in importance to the "Point," from Whom they derived their inspiration and authority. In assuming this title, the Báb claimed to rank, like Muhammad, in the series of great Founders of Religion,
-Baha'u'llah and the New Era by J.E. Esslemont page 16

I am the Primal Point...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 12

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest....
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 126

^^ In the previous passage the Bab briefly talks about the Dispensations/Day of various Prophets of God. He talks about the "day of the 'Point of the Bayan'"
Consider the next passage.

For in the forthcoming Revelation it is He Who is the Remembrance of God, whereas the devotions which thou art offering at present have been prescribed by the Point of the Bayán...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 94

The Bab considers Himself a Prophet.

- EVEN BAHAULLAH DID NOT CLAIM THAT BAB WAS A PROPHET.


Magnify Thou, O Lord my God, Him Who is the Primal Point, the Divine Mystery, the Unseen Essence, the Dayspring of Divinity, and the Manifestation of Thy Lordship...
-Baha'u'llah, excerpt taken from a Bahai Fasting prayer

Baha'u'llah considered the Bab a Prophet.

YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN. USMAN WAS MURDERED IN 35 HIJRI - 25 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET. IS THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1400 YEARS AND 200 YEARS OR NOT? 1400 YEARS AGO, THE MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION AND TRANSPORT AND VERIFICATION WERE LESS SOPHISTICATED THAN 200 YEARS AGO? ASSUMING QURAN WAS COMPLIED DURING THE TIME OF USMAN, EVEN THEN IN SUCH A SOCIETY, THE ENTIRE QURAN WAS COMPILIED WITHIN 20 YEARS OF THE PASSING OF THE PROPHET. IN ANY CASE, USMAN COMPILATION OF THE SCRIPT IS WHAT WAS ACCEPTED AND MADE COMMON. QURAN EXISTED EVEN BEFORE THAT IN A COMPLIED FORM WITH ALI.

I seem to have been confused in presenting my points.I was in no way trying to insult the Quran or the Muslims during that time. I agree with you that Usman died after the prophet. Yes you are correct, 1400 years ago the medium of communication was different than 200 years ago. And one would certainly expect that printing and translation as well as distribution of Bahai books would be much much faster than that of the past. 20 years was a fast time to compile Quran.

I dont think its a matter of only taking E.G. Browne's point when he supports the Bahais. Just basically saying that his scholarly analysis, while certainly authoritative, can be questioned. That he may support Azali claims because of political bias and not because of historical evidence. Anyway arguing this point is straying away from the issues.

When I supplied that verse from the Quran I was not representing any interpretation. You said that "the word of Allah will be the last" and I was just fufilling that by posting the words of Allah. It was from Yusuf-Ali translation: Sura 13 Ra'd or Thunder verse 11.
No problem with the cap locks, no offense taken.

Perhaps we could end this long thread with a quote from the Quran.
(this isnt implying that someone "won the debate")



 
Promethium said:
But the Báb did not stop even with the claim of Mihdíhood. He adopted the sacred title of "Nuqtiyiula" or "Primal Point." This was a title applied to Muhammad Himself by His followers. Even the Imáms were secondary in importance to the "Point," from Whom they derived their inspiration and authority. In assuming this title, the Báb claimed to rank, like Muhammad, in the series of great Founders of Religion,
-Baha'u'llah and the New Era by J.E. Esslemont page 16

I am the Primal Point...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 12

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest....
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 126

^^ In the previous passage the Bab briefly talks about the Dispensations/Day of various Prophets of God. He talks about the "day of the 'Point of the Bayan'"
Consider the next passage.

For in the forthcoming Revelation it is He Who is the Remembrance of God, whereas the devotions which thou art offering at present have been prescribed by the Point of the Bayán...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 94

The Bab considers Himself a Prophet.

- EVEN BAHAULLAH DID NOT CLAIM THAT BAB WAS A PROPHET.


Magnify Thou, O Lord my God, Him Who is the Primal Point, the Divine Mystery, the Unseen Essence, the Dayspring of Divinity, and the Manifestation of Thy Lordship...
-Baha'u'llah, excerpt taken from a Bahai Fasting prayer

Baha'u'llah considered the Bab a Prophet.
Click to expand...

Read the Quran where the claim of prophethood of the prophet is made clearly and not in similes and metaphors. I have a serious issue with SWB - it is as I have mentioned very carefully "selected" and will be difficult to accept till the original works are seen. I am an expert in Arabic and Persian and expect to read the "words of God" in the language they were revealed so that the both letter and spirit of the revelation can be understood. Without repeating myself, some of my previous posts will highlight this aspect.

As regards the Primal point issue, after 124,000 prophets and atleast 11 Imams, all of whom were far more illustrious than the Bab, why would Allah introduce this concept? We dont even get a whiff of this concept in Quran and traditions.

This discussion is well, a discussion, not a wrestling ring. So no intentions of winning or otherwise.

"I swear by Time, that Man is in loss. Except those who believe, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy."

Regards
Imran
 
Actually, Imran you are quite wrong about Baha`u'llah acknowledging the Bab as a "Manifestation of God" co-equal with Himself and all the other Manifestations including Muhammad.

"I yield Thee such thanks as can enable the Heavenly Dove to warble forth, upon the branches of the Lote-Tree of Immortality, her song: "Verily, Thou art God. No God is there besides Thee. From eternity Thou hast been exalted above the praise of aught else but Thee, and been high above the description of any one except Thyself." I yield Thee such thanks as can cause the Nightingale of Glory to pour forth its melody in the highest heaven: "Ali (the Bab), in truth, is Thy servant, Whom Thou hast singled out from among Thy Messengers and Thy chosen Ones, and made Him to be the Manifestation of Thyself in all that pertaineth unto Thee, and that concerneth the revelation of Thine attributes and the evidences of Thy names." I yield Thee such thanks as can stir up all things to extol Thee, and to glorify Thine Essence, and can unloose the tongues of all beings to magnify the sovereignty of Thy beauty. I yield Thee such thanks as can fill the heavens and the earth with the signs of Thy transcendent Essence, and assist all created things to enter the Tabernacle of Thy nearness and Thy presence. I yield Thee such thanks as can make every created thing to be a book that shall speak of Thee, and a scroll that shall unfold Thy praise. I yield Thee such thanks as can establish the Manifestations of Thy sovereignty upon the throne of Thy governance, and set up the Exponents of Thy glory upon the seat of Thy Divinity.
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 329)

As to your objection that one can only judge the words of the Prophets in Arabic? Pish-Posh.

Regards,
Scott
 
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