I dont get it....

[Zaakir]

good points, and being an ex christian i researched too, and heard that there were two main icons in christianity, who had differing beleifs, one a pope actually ended up agreeing with, and became denounced, the only time ever happening, becasue he didnt beleive jesus a.s was the son of god...messiah, yes he is, god ,no.there were two forms, one wich would have been the islam of the day...ie...submission 1 god...the other, the modern day christianity, which took over as it was bigger in number, and therefore better for an army, and was made the religion which people under roman govern had to follow..youre right about the gods thing, i see taht coming through, i mean in church we had to pray towards statues...as for the 32 gospels...be carefl how you say that cos u might offend some people....and poeple who strongly beleive in thsi will probly try and say that in islam there were loads of Qurans, as i raed once...what rubbish!

 

[farhan]

dictatorship?....well Allah is our dictator,

Well Allah cant be a dictator, if he was, none of us would be alive . Let me tell you an old story .
There was a person who in the days of his youth, went to the mountains to worship God. 200 years went by, he had mystical powers now , he could start fire , fly in the air , command animals e.t.c. One day an angel came to him & said, "God is very pleased with you, tell me what you want". He replied,” I have been sitting here for 200 years without any reply, I want justice". The angel went back, came back & said,” God says ask for his blessings, his mercy, dont ask for justice". The man said "No, I want justice". The angel went back again, came back again , & said," I have came back to warn you, dont ask for justice, ask for mercy, ask for blessings". He said ,"I want justice". The angel put the mountain on his head & said,” You have been sitting on the head of this mountain for 200 years, now its the mountain's turn, this is the beginning of God's justice".
We still dont submit to God, we dont follow The Prophet . We destroy the very Earth we live upon. We dont do any thing right. But still the sun shines upon us, still the earth gives us food . We live, & this is the evidence that God isnt a dictator, he is more like a father . A father can some times behave like a dictator , but he is still a lot different from a dictator , & whatever he does is for our own good .

Ok, i'm not to offend anyone here (i'm not islamic) but the religion tells people how to brush their teeth and go to the toilet? Tell me please if i have misread this but surely this is more like some kind of dictatorship? Telling people how to brush their teeth isn't that going too far?

The core of religion lies in this hadeeth
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Jibreel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan."
But this is the very foundation of Islam . After accomplishing this , whats next . So next we have the Quran & Sunnah . Islam wouldnt be hurt if people didnt go to toilet at all , or if they did it on the road ( Other people might get offended, thats why it is not recommended by Islam ). But for people who want a peaceful & balanced life, Islam provides a code of ethics of the whole life (Thats the definition of Deen). How to eat, drink, walk, sleep, have sex, do business, Hijab, Jihad, e.t.c. Its all a recommendation not a command, & its for people who want to follow, who want to be nearer to God . People dont brush their teeth, its fine with Islam , but for people who want a sublime, clean & spiritual life, Islam asks them to bursh their teeth around 5-7 times a day , before going to sleep, after waking up & before 5 time prayer . They dont do it , its their own loss, they will destroy their own teeth .
Actually what happens is that all of these things comes from Sunnah & Hadith . And since Muhammad is the ultimate ideal to be followed, so muslims follow it . Still its not a dictatorship , the relationship between Muslims & Prophet is of love & honour .
Its all about different standards, in the west, these are totally different than any thing eastern. Its sad that rather than being told to understand the other side , the westerners are being forced into believing a clash of civilizations.

@Zaakir
I personally dont have anything against salafis, some of the scholars that I respect a lot are salafis . AbuBakar, Umar, Ali, Hussain........none of them was follower of any school. So salfism is a very normal thing . But the problem emerges when people say that only I am right & others are wrong . The rest of 72 sects will go to hell . By that standard , Abu Hanifa would be in hell right now , with Ghazali , Shafe , Malik .............& the heaven will have a few dozen people, rest would be empty .
You can learn from anybody , if you are willing not to throw them in hell . I have learnt a lot from Zakir Naik (Salfi - most famous work...PEACE TV, available in UK, free to air ) , Javed Ahmed Ghamidi (Hanafi but not very strict about following any one school) , Qaradawi (Malki I guess, see Islamonlie.net) . And among the medivel people two of them is very important in my "making" , Ghazali ( Shafi scholar/Sufi - most famous work Ahya ul uloom ) & Abdul Qadir jilani ( Hanbali scholar/Qadri Sufi - most famous work Ghanyya tutalibeen ) .
So read all of them , read Nahj al Balagah, Masnavi Rumi, Golestan Saadi.........all of them will teach you something , only if you are willing not to decide about their eternal fate . Follow one, or all, or none , its your own choice . The most important thing is to follow Quran & Sunnah , on this all agree.

 

[Admiral_HangTuah]

Good points, and being an ex christian i researched too, and heard that there were two main icons in christianity, who had differing beliefs. One, a Pope actually ended up agreeing with, and became denounced, the only time ever happening, becasue he didnt believe Jesus a.s. was the Son of God. Messiah? Yes he is. God? No. There were two forms, one wich would have been the Islam of the day... i.e. submission 1 God... the other, the modern day christianity, which took over as it was bigger in number, and therefore better for an army, and was made the religion which people under roman govern had to follow.

Dear Zaakir,

Thank you and welcome to the brotherhood of Islam. I have written the above article in my blog last May 2006, after watching the whole episodes of documentary about Christianity in The Bible Week Special. I love to watch informative documentary eventhough it doesn't mean that all of those presented in the documentary are correct. However, at least you can choose and think based on logic and light in your heart.

In Islam, as you may know... tought us that Jesus a.s. knew that he will be betrayed and God rescued him by raised and brought him to heaven. He is there as a living human being, not yet dead. "The person" who chased and wanted to captured him, was made look alike him (God's will), and the Roman captured this "person" and crucified "him". Later, the Roman realised that they had crucified the wrong person.

Jesus a.s. is only a Prophet, and preached Islam the same religion like God has revealed through Muhammad p.b.u.h. He is the son of Marry (Mariam) and we have to believe that God can do miracles.

..youre right about the gods thing, i see that coming through, i mean in church we had to pray towards statues... as for the 32 gospels...be careful how you say that cos u might offend some people....and poeple who strongly believe in this will probably try and say that in islam there were loads of Qurans, as i read once... what rubbish!

Well, I certainly do not want to offend anybody here. Its an open forum to discuss, and we want to discuss in harmony. I'm still learning. As an adult muslim, we were asked to learn more about others' culture and religion. We cannot disregard that, as we have to find the deepest touch of faith. Want to be the God's "auliya", we have to be bold and inquisitive.

The history told that Roman Emperor has decided to take christianity into the fold of Roman empire, and therefore, has to focus even in religion itself. Its a good strategy by a bold and brilliant ruler, but that sacrifices the true believers at those times. They have to kill those great saints, and therefore, eliminate the truth from the encryption, and history marks.

Later, in modern days... people will notice less and have to work hard to find the truth. Even the truth is in Islam, the propaganda and NWO agenda has been successful to avoid mankind to understand the truth messages from God. The same God that created Adam and Eve.

The mystery is still mystery as human being can only use maximum 2 % of their brain when living. The rest remain as mystery, as only God knows the truth. However, as God is the Most Forgiving and The most Merciful, He gave us Holy Books for us to find the truth and way out for success in after life or here after.

Regards.

 

[Zaakir]

Dear Zaakir,

In Islam, as you may know... tought us that Jesus a.s. knew that he will be betrayed and God rescued him by raised and brought him to heaven. He is there as a living human being, not yet dead. "The person" who chased and wanted to captured him, was made look alike him (God's will), and the Roman captured this "person" and crucified "him". Later, the Roman realised that they had crucified the wrong person.

.

in the bible we were never really taught about that...we just got told they crucified him because he said he was god...we as muslims know this cannot be true...and what you jsut said, is the first time i heard that an it slots together like a jigsaw puzzle...it sounds so right!

as for me saying god is like out dictator..maybe this was the worng thing to say..i wouldnt like to make any accusation about Allah s.w.t apart for using His 99 names, but i just meant in the fact that He tells us what to do and we should do it

 

[Azure24]

I don't understand? You never get "opposing religion bitching" in the Christian Board? Zaakir, why do you need to discredit Christianity? Is it to make you belive in Islam more? Anyway i have to ask this question to everyone in this thread. Why do you think God rescued Jesus? Is it because he is a good man?
Because as you and i know good people die everyday. "The good die young", and besides why would God prioritize Jesus over everyone else its not like he's the Son of God or anything. Unless he is of course!
And for the record we Christian do not thing Jesus is dead, (he was resurrected) which means he WAS dead and is no longer. This shows that with God anything is possible and we can conquer even death! That fact that Jesus suffered on the cross is saying that it is common for good people to suffer in this world and it gives them hope, saying that even though things seem to be going wrong in are lives we should never give up...in the end we will triumpth. Whatever way you look at it we are all children of God so technically Jesus is the Son of God and God is not a Dictator.


Sayonara! Oyasuminasai!

 

[Admiral_HangTuah]

In the Bible we were never really taught about that...we just got told they crucified him because he said he was God... we as muslims know this cannot be true... and what you just said, is the first time I heard that an it slots together like a jigsaw puzzle... it sounds so right!

Dear Zaakir,

Thank you for the thoughts. Yes, I think now you have seen the answer. You can see the Imam or knowledgble person to check about this fact too.

Muslim do not believe in Jesus' sacrificial role, nor do we believe that Jesus a.s. died on the cross. In fact, Islam does not accept any human sacrifice for sin. Jesus a.s. is now live in Heaven waiting for his return to save the religion of God before the end of the worlds.

Regarding the crucifixion, the Koran states that Jesus' death was merely an illusion of God, just to deceive his enemies (The Romans), and that Jesus a.s. ascended bodily to heaven.

Koran (004:157):
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Koran (004:158):
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Koran (004:159):
And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness against them.

Based on the quotes attributed to Muhammad p.b.u.h, Muslim believe that Jesus a.s. will return to the world in the flesh following Imam Al-Mahdi (a muslim leader in a time when muslim will be oppressed by tyranny and evil power countries)* to defeat the Dajjal (an Antichrist - like figure, translated as "Deceiver").

(*): I shall elaborate this issue perhaps one fine day in the future.

Muslim scholars believe that he will descend at Damascus, presently in Syria, once the world has become filled with sin, deception, injustice and evil power countries oppressing the innocence; he will then live out the rest of his natural life.

...Anyway i have to ask this question to everyone in this thread. Why do you think God rescued Jesus? Is it because he is a good man?

Because as you and i know good people die everyday. "The good die young", and besides why would God prioritize Jesus over everyone else its not like he's the Son of God or anything. Unless he is of course! And for the record we Christian do not thing Jesus is dead, (he was resurrected) which means he WAS dead and is no longer. This shows that with God anything is possible and we can conquer even death! That fact that Jesus suffered on the cross is saying that it is common for good people to suffer in this world and it gives them hope, saying that even though things seem to be going wrong in are lives we should never give up...in the end we will triumpth. Whatever way you look at it we are all children of God so technically Jesus is the Son of God and God is not a Dictator.

Dear Azure,

Thank you for asking the question. Let me try to answer, based on my understanding about Islam, and as Muslim, I want to see everybody understand my religion, but I let you see through it, and it is up to you whether you want to accept it or not.

God rescued Jesus a.s. and why? Well, if you ask me... I don't have the answer, as only God knows why. Perhaps, maybe He wants to send Jesus a.s. to rescue the world against the AntiChrist later in the future, who knows? Long before Moses a.s. was born, the Pharoah has been warned by his "magician" or "witches" that in the future, one boy will kill him and save his people. The King was so mad, and ordered his army to find all boys in the empire, and kill all of them. But still, God wills, Moses a.s. as a boy escaped the difficulties and was living happily as the Pharoah's own adpoted son.

In modern days, the people who have power in their hands will do in what ever due to find ways to stop the prophecy from becoming reality. This includes the prophecy of Imam Mahdi, Jesus a.s. return and save the world, Armageddon etc. But, if God has created the universe from the day one, and fated everything under His command, no one can overrule that. He even can change anything if He wills.

Based on history, only God can forgive His servants. All human being are His servants whether we want to accept it or not, the fact is that we are. Adam and Eve, prayed and asked for His forgiveness for thousands of years, and God is the Most Merciful and All-Forgiving. All prophets are human being, and they are not God. The miracles that they had, were all very tiny compared to the power of Allah (God). Even, Angles are much more powerful, with God willing to help human being, including Prophets from difficulties and tyranny. They dont eat, sleep or having sex, nor they appear like human being in front of everybody, to preach. Human being and God cannot be comparable, as God created human, and human have to only accept their role to be the servants of God.

Let's think and see the whole world. Its full of mystery. Only God knows the answers for all the questions.

Regards.

 

[cyberpi]

In my posts, I do not make judgement. It may appears so just because I include the verse of Sura Al-Kafiruun.

Every post or word uttered is a judgement, and saying that Surah applies to a person is judging and calling them a Kafir. For those who don't know, that is serious business in Islam.

This does not contradict to my earlier post. Reason being, if you're Christian or Jews, you have you own theology. We have our own, but yet we believe and worship the same God. However, the method of executing it are different.

I worship not that which ye worship

I don't have to add words which are NOT in the Quran to explain the Quran. I quote it exactly and compare with other verses and your words. I don't even need your definition of worship now since by your own testimony you identify what you worship and it is the same God (swt).

Per both the Quran and the Bible, Ibrahim (pbuh) worshipped in front of an altar where animals were sacrificed and burned. Some would say that he loved it so much one day he tried to burn and sacrifice his son there. Do you worship that which he worshipped?

For those who you think are misguided with the Trinity, you can simply ask the question, "Who wrote the beliefs that you teach?" Or in my opinion, I was going to suggest that the 'better way' than mere disputation is to present arguments from that which they claim to believe. Learn and quote from the Bible... I think you will find there are many words from Jesus (pbuh) that counters the comonly stated Trinity.

Similarly many alledged muslims and scholars claim that the Holy Spirit and an angel Jibril are the same, yet there is no verse that states that either. Is that not yet another invention or conjecture from the minds of men?

 

[Admiral_HangTuah]

For those who you think are misguided with the Trinity, you can simply ask the question, "Who wrote the beliefs that you teach?" Or in my opinion, I was going to suggest that the 'better way' than mere disputation is to present arguments from that which they claim to believe. Learn and quote from the Bible... I think you will find there are many words from Jesus (pbuh) that counters the comonly stated Trinity.

There is not such thing as Trinity. It was all a politcal set up which was considered as "chaos" after the uprising Jesus follower into the Roman empire, after the death of somebody they thought was "Jesus Christ". Jesus is a prophet and will become the protector of The Truth of God on planet earth before the Day of Judgement.

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-" (An-Nisa 004:157)

"From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done." (Al-Maidah 005:014)

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." [An-Nisa 004:171]

Similarly many alledged muslims and scholars claim that the Holy Spirit and an angel Jibril are the same, yet there is no verse that states that either. Is that not yet another invention or conjecture from the minds of men?

Most muslim scholars say that The Holy Spirit and Angel Gabriel are the same as Angel Gabriel has always been the protector and helper to all of the prophets. In arabic, its called "Rohul Qudus" means "Holy Spirit". The event including when an angel (Gabriel) appeared as a beautiful man approached Mary and told her that she will get pregnant with the Will of God, as He is the Most Powerful. Gabriel again helped Jesus to learn reading, about Torah and Injil, and other knowledge about the world as well as to heal.

Jesus a.s. is a prophet, and we cannot deny that based on logic and dalil naqli (Holy Books and Hadiths).

Regards.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

does islam hold to the teachings of the prophet isaiah? what book and scripture of isaiah do muslims reference? or do muslims just say his name but know nothing of the prophets scripture?

Here isaiah writes the down a prophecy given to him by god, that a son will be born which is a sign directly given by god himself. a miraculous birth given to a virgin. that which which she conceives, god says to call him a name that means god is with us as his sign to us. god, son.
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

Here isaiah is prophecizing that a son being born will have attributes that are equal to that of gods. a proclamation giving of things to come. God the father giving his attributes, the son taking on his attributes.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Here isaiah speaks of the spirit of the lord, and it speaks of the lord, and it speaks of the stem of jesse the spirit will rest with. God, spirit, shoot from the stem of jesse.
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2)

Here isaiah writes god's proclamation that his servant with whom his spirit rests in and is upon, will be the chosen one of god that brings justice and whom the very soul of god delights in and upholds. God, spirit, servant.
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1)

Here isaiah writes the Lord's proclamation that God sent him and has always spoken to man and existed before our time, and is the redeemer and is holy, and god also sent his spirit to us. God who sends, the Lord being sent, Holy Spirit being sent.
"Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: (Isaiah 48:16-17)

Here isaiah writes the Lord's proclamation that gods spirit is upon him, therefore is the annointed, the good news, the one to bring justice and freedom from god himself to us. spirit, the lord, god.
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)

Here isaiah is prophecizing that gods mercy and love that is manifested to his people thru the redeemer and saviour, but in their rebellion against god they have rejected the saviour who was afflicted thru their affliction, whom god has proclaimed with his word, and his spirit. the saviour is the one who has redeemed them even from days of old. god, saviour, holy spirit.
For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:8-10)

 

[cyberpi]

There is not such thing as Trinity.

Whether anyone believes in Satan Claus or not is irrelevant. I think you missed my point because you just disputed it with the Quran. I was saying to argue the case with people who don't believe the Quran, use the Bible they believe in. It is an easy case. With the father / son of god it is harder to reconcile with two sharply different definitions, but with the Trinity it is an easy case.

Most muslim scholars say that The Holy Spirit and Angel Gabriel are the same as Angel Gabriel has always been the protector and helper to all of the prophets. In arabic, its called "Rohul Qudus" means "Holy Spirit". The event including when an angel (Gabriel) appeared as a beautiful man approached Mary and told her that she will get pregnant with the Will of God, as He is the Most Powerful. Gabriel again helped Jesus to learn reading, about Torah and Injil, and other knowledge about the world as well as to heal.

I know what muslim scholars say. Can you provide a verse from Allah (swt) or Gabriel that says that? It is conjecture. The verses may appear to say that, but they don't. The bible doesn't say that either.

 

[Admiral_HangTuah]

Dear BlaznFattyz,

Thank you for joining the discussion. I am new here, but willing to share opinions and hope we can see the truth before we die.

First of all, let me stress that, I haven't heard about Isaiah in my religion (maybe lack of reading). Never from the holy book or from hadiths. However, we believe in Ar-Rasool (Messengers) and Al-Anbiya (Prophets). There are differences between these two:-

1) Rasool are prophets and at the same time is called as messenger which they were mentioned in holy books, have enourmous number of followers or able to perform certain miracles i.e. mukjizat in arabic.

2) However, Al-Anbiya, are prophets who did not have holy books or scriptures, and no followers in the end (the impact to the humankind is not that huge), but still loved by God, and bring good things to the world.
There are 25 Rasool that muslim (waajib - have) to memorise (Adam, Idris [Enoch], Nuh [Noah], Hud [Eber], Saleh [Shelah], Ibrahim [Abraham], Lut [Lot], Ismail [Ishmael], Ishaq [Isaac], Ya'qub [Jacob], Yusuf [Joseph], Ayub [Job], Shoaib [Jethro], Musa [Moses], Harun [Aaron], Zulkeifli [Ezekiel - most likely], Dawood [David], Sulayman [Solomon], Ilyas [Elijah], Elyasha [Elisha], Yunus [Jonah], Zakaria [Zacharias], Yahya [John The Baptist], Isa [Jesus], Muhammad [the last prophet - not mentioned before his time]). We have to accept them as the messengers and prophets. However, there are more than 200 Anbiya (so called), and muslim do not know all of their names particularly (because never been told by God directly in Koran) - this will still remain as mystery. However, the most popular among Anbiya is Prophet Khaidir a.s. who had met many other Messengers including Moses a.s. and Jesus a.s.
Regarding your opinion that Jew's Prophet - Isaiah had foretold about Jesus, I accept that as a true fact. Despite, this Prophet Isaiah too had foretold about Muhammad, and not only him, Jesus a.s. too had foretold about Muhammad (PBUH).

Well, to understand the prophecies made by Jesus on the subject; one has to begin with the First Epistle of John, Chapter 2, Verse 1. Here, Jesus Christ is called a "Paraclete" (Parakletos, Advocate, Comforter, Helper) by apostle John. The same term "Paraclete" is used by the apostle in his Gospel, in connection with a portentous prophecy made by Jesus Christ, before the end of his ministry upon this earth, for the coming of "another Paraclete". Prophet Moses also made a similar prophecy, before the end of his ministry, for the coming of his successor. Jesus Christ declared;

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16

Note: We often read the verse ending as; "with you for ever". However; "into the age" is the literal translation of the Greek phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by John.

These two verses by John clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ, while speaking of "another Paraclete", was speaking of the coming of "another male figure" like himself, some time in the future, after his departure. The passage quoted below also confirms that the original concept among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the "Paraclete" was for the coming of a "male figure", but that concept was later confused with the "Holy Spirit". Here is an extract from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible Volume 29A:

"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1John ii1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. ...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Butlmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ, besides being a "Messiah" was also a prophet like Moses, by his own admission. Please see John 5:46 and 9:17. Hence to say that the coming of "another Paraclete" was similar to the coming of "another Prophet" like Jesus and Moses, would not be inaccurate. OTOH, the concept of "Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7

This verse clearly tells us that the coming of the Paraclete was subject to the departure of Jesus. Whereas, the "Holy Spirit" (Rohul-Qudus) was already present. It was in existence since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Genesis 1:2). It was also present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" happened to be present at River Jordan when Jesus Christ was being Baptised by John the Baptist, in the early part of his ministry. So, how could Jesus say; "but if I go, I will send Holy Spirit"?

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26

This above verse clears the confusion. The Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure, whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it".

"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

Note: 1. In the older MSS, Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is a reference to "the Spirit of Truth" as in 15:26.

2. The word spirit, Greek. `pneu'ma', is of neutral gender and takes pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted above and below, the pronoun used is "he".

3. In 1 John 4:6, the terms "the spirit of truth" and "the spirit of error" are used for the human beings.

4. History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his Truth and Honesty, long before he received the Revelations.
Jesus Christ did indicate what the Paraclete to come will do in his time. Did prophet Muhammad do those things? Let's examine;

1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn.16:13

Note: The Quran is a compilation of the "Divine Revelations" that were received by prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. Prophet's companions used to write down whatever was recited. The Quran does not contain the writings or teachings of or by Muhammad, as often mentioned by some misinformed authors.

2. "He shall glorify me." John 16:14

Note: The Quran glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary. The Quran also confirms, Jesus was a Messiah; a Messenger of God; the Spirit from God; the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet.

3. "He shall take mine and shall disclose it to you." Jn.16:14

Note: Muhammad did declare himself a Messenger of God like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

4. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26

Note: The Quran teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually.

5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Jn.14:26

Note: The Quran speaks about the teaching of the righteous Jesus and even quotes him.

6. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26

Note: The Quran attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded. The Quran acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).
Prophet Isaiah is considered to be one of the major prophets of the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah there are several prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah begins with a prophecy for the coming of prophet Jesus. After verse number nine, God declares through Isaiah, the "new things" that are to "spring forth" in the Land of Kedar.
In the Bible there is only one personality called Kedar. He was the grandson of prophet Abraham, through his son Ishmael (see Gen.25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran (Syno-Arabian dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia is called the "Land of Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.

God declares through Isaiah;

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an (Koran). This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble in Mecca and shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat. The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and from Mecca.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Verse 13.

In the Old Testament the God often speaks "I" will do this, or "I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings like us, to do these jobs. (see 2 Samuel 12:7-12). Muhammad did go forth as a mighty prophet of Allah, did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating tribe of the pagan Arabs in Arabia. Finally with a war cry and roar, Muhammad did prevail upon the enemies of Lord - the idolaters, fulfilling the above prophecy.

"I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.

The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of sharing God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with the war cry, through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these sinful practices were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once.

"And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Verse 16.

It is an undeniable fact that before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arabs were like the blinds. Their religious and social concepts were crooked. The revelation of this "new song" brought them out of that darkness. Earlier, God had not sent any prophet to these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfilled His above promise and also the following promise to Abraham;

"And also of the son of the bondwoman I will make a nation, because he is thy seed." Genesis 21:13.

Please note the word "also" in above promise. The nations of Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three children of Abraham by God's Covenants with Abraham.

This also fulfils the following prophecy by Jesus;
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but what soever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you thing to come." John 16:13
For further details about "the Paraclete" and "the Spirit of Truth" please see Section 1 of this article.

"They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images, `Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.

History records that Prophet Muhammad did put the pagan idolaters to great shame when he demolished before them, their 365 idols that were installed in Ka'bah (Mecca), the most respected place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.

 

[mansio]

Admiral Hang Tuah

Why do you discuss the Gospel of John and on the other hand you believe as a Muslim that the Gospels are corrupted?
Leave it up to the Christians to decide who the Paraclete is. His identity as the Holy Spirit is evident to them.

 

[cyberpi]

Excellent compilation Admiral_HangTuah

Admiral Hang Tuah
Why do you discuss the Gospel of John and on the other hand you believe as a Muslim that the Gospels are corrupted?
Leave it up to the Christians to decide who the Paraclete is. His identity as the Holy Spirit is evident to them.

The key word in John 14:16 is "another". If you wish to believe there are multliple Holy Spirits the key word is still "another".

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16

Note: We often read the verse ending as; "with you for ever". However; "into the age" is the literal translation of the Greek phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by John.

That could be, the Greek word 'aion' can mean for ever, or less commonly it can mean for an age. In the KJV the word 'aion' was translated 2 times out of 128 to mean 'age'. But I read the 'he may abide with you' as meaning 'Allah may abide with you'. Allah (swt) will send... so Allah (swt) may abide with... The word 'abide' comes from the Greek word 'meno' which means to remain in a place, to not depart, to remain in a time, or a state or condition. Or to wait for, await one. In the KJV meno is translated as abide (61 times), remain (16), dwell (15), continue (11), tarry (9), endure (3). So I read it as, "by sending this paraclete, that God (swt) may remain with us for an eternity".

That is a foundation of Islam in so many ways.

 

[Admiral_HangTuah]

Dear All,

It is hard to debate if you can't accept Koran as the truth from God who sent the messages through Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h.

First, we have to think.... why is it God chose the last Prophet from the people of Arabia? Let us be honest, and answer me.... why?

Regards.

 

[Friend]

Dear All,

It is hard to debate if you can't accept Koran as the truth from God who sent the messages through Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h.

First, we have to think.... why is it God chose the last Prophet from the people of Arabia? Let us be honest, and answer me.... why?

Regards.

Slaam

Can you clarify your question in another words?

with my best regard

 

[bananabrain]

Here isaiah writes the down a prophecy given to him by god, that a son will be born which is a sign directly given by god himself. a miraculous birth given to a virgin. that which which she conceives, god says to call him a name that means god is with us as his sign to us. god, son.
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

except that this has nothing to do with jesus or virgins, of course, the word translated as virgin being the equivalent of "maid" - there's no suggestion that this is an "immaculate conception" in the original hebrew. conveniently, this tends to get ignored by those who are desperate to twist "old testament" prophecies to support the need for a "new testament". furthermore, the "suffering servant" is jacob, in other words the community of israel, the jewish people, as i have pointed out numerous times before, while the saviour of isaiah 63 is of course G!D. nowhere is it suggested that the Messiah and G!D are the same person or that they can be in some way combined, let alone that the person of jesus is indicated and that therefore this:

Regarding your opinion that Jew's Prophet - Isaiah had foretold about Jesus, I accept that as a true fact.

is not supported by knowledge of the text in question. i also suspect that few christians will accept that jesus foretold muhammad. furthermore, i must point out that muslims would not accept that, say, the baha'i prophets are the prophesied imams of the islamic tradition. all this points to a rather obvious pair of conclusions:

CLAIMS BY SUBSEQUENT RELIGIONS THAT THE PRECEDING RELIGION REQUIRES, FORETELLS AND INTENDS TO PROVIDE A CONTEXT FOR THE SUBSEQUENT RELIGION (whether christianity, islam or baha'i) ARE NOTHING MORE THAN THE OPINION OF THE ADHERENTS OF THE SUBSEQUENT RELIGION. FURTHERMORE, CLAIMS THAT THE SUBSEQUENT RELIGION SUPERSEDES, REPLACES OR INVALIDATES THE PRECEDING RELIGION OUGHT TO BE TREATED WITH SCEPTICISM, IF NOT CONTEMPT.

not only that, but it makes the subsequency argument look like a manifestation of insecurity. none of these religions need to do this - they can all stand on their own on their own merits. trying to misrepresent their predecessors just makes them look like they're trying to tell others how those others ought to understand their own sacred texts.

and, furthermore, there's absolutely no evidence in the isaiah text that muhammad is referred to via "kedar".

It is hard to debate if you can't accept Koran as the truth from G!D who sent the messages through Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h.

but how can anyone both claim that the Torah is corrupt and then use jewish texts to try and claim that they prefigure both jesus and muhammad? that just doesn't make sense.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[mansio]

Cyberpi

John 14:16 says "allon paraklêton dôsei humin".

"He (=God the Father) will give you another helper" besides Jesus.

That helper to replace Jesus gone up to heaven is in the following verse 17 "to Pneuma tês alêtheias", the Spirit of truth.

Who tells you about "multiple" Holy Spirits?

 

[cyberpi]

First, we have to think.... why is it God chose the last Prophet from the people of Arabia? Let us be honest, and answer me.... why?
Regards.

I agree, I have felt it was by plan. I tend to see the effect of the oil and water conditions... but many reasons. I also think Palestine / Israel was special primarily because of location.

There is something else that catches my attention. In English there is a curvy but relatively straight line of countries that start with 'I': Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Israel, Iraq, Iran, India, Indonesia. The 'ME' is in the middle of it, dividing the 'WE'... and the US and phonetically You-rup are largely involved. I, ME, WE, US, YOU... probably just my vivid imagination finding patterns in a language that is only one out of thousands.

 

[cyberpi]

Cyberpi

John 14:16 says "allon paraklêton dôsei humin".

"He (=God the Father) will give you another helper" besides Jesus.

That helper to replace Jesus gone up to heaven is in the following verse 17 "to Pneuma tês alêtheias", the Spirit of truth.

Who tells you about "multiple" Holy Spirits?

Very well, paraclete is generalized to mean a helper and Jesus (pbuh) was a paraclete. Thank you. If only more alledged Christians saw that.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

except that this has nothing to do with jesus or virgins...

but from a christian standpoint it does, as well as the other posts i made of isaiah support it and the concept of the trinity as well; as god the father sending the son and sending the holy spirit. and before the term christian was even said, enoch, king david and other prophets knew of the son, the holy spirit, and god the father as all one god, and wrote about it.