The proplem with God (Hell and free will)

A few premises for these arguments seem flawed. For instance, a benevolent being is opposed to all evil, right? Well, isn't taking away free will to intervene and remove the perceived evil in itself an evil act? There is the reason He doesn't act immediately right there; if He intervened there would be no point of free will or Creation in the first place.

The inductive argument from evil has more holes than swiss cheese, and the natural law one doesn't really have any justification as to why predation is wrong. Likewise, as someone said, where is the definition of evil? Unless there is a set definition, it is all a matter of perspective, and even after there is a definition it's still mostly perspective.

Edit: I didn;t realize how long ago the original post had been made.
 
islam says that those who dont follow islam should as every nation was given a messenger at one time or another.so depending on you as a person you might be able to be saved, depending on good deeds and life.

in christianity i dont think there is a hell because as a christian , i knew that god killed His 'son' and Himself so we are saved,so are sins dont matter as someone has been punished for them already,so how can we be punished?
 
The following article I found on the islamic website submission.org:

Predestination
According to the Islamic teachings:
We are absolutely free to believe or disbelieve in God. It is God's will that we will ( Qur’an :18:29, 25:57, 73:19, 74:37, 76:29, 78:39, 80:12).
After committing our original sin), God gave us a chance to denounce our crime and accept His absolute authority (33:72). But we decided that we wanted to see a demonstration of Satan's competence as a god. Many people protest the fact that God has created them, to put them through this gruesome test. Obviously, such people are not aware that [1] they have committed a horrendous crime (Introduction & Appendix 7), and [2] that they were given a chance to denounce their crime and redeem themslves, but they chose to go through the test.
We learn from 57:22 that our lives, along with everything else around us, are pre-recorded on something like a videotape.God fully knows what kind of decision each of us is destined to make; He knows which of us are going to Heaven and which are going to Hell. Even before we were born into this world, God knew which souls are good and which souls are evil. As far as God's omniscience is concerned, we can imagine a stamp on everyone's forehead that says "Heaven" or "Hell." Yet, as far as we are concerned, we are totally free to side with God's absolute authority, or Satan's polytheistic views. Predestination, therefore, is a fact as far as God is concerned, not as far as we are concerned.
This understanding explains the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills." Based on His knowledge, God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (2:30), this meant that some of us deserved a chance to redeem ourselves. One example of God's guidance for those who deserve guidance is found in 21:51: "We granted Abraham his guidance, for we were fully aware of him." In other words, God knew that Abraham was a good soul who deserved to be guided, and God granted him his guidance and understanding. Another good example is stated in 12:24. Joseph fell for the Egyptian nobleman's wife, and almost committed adultery "if it were not that he saw a sign from his Lord." God teaches us in 12:24 that He "diverted evil and sin from Joseph, for he was one of My devoted worshipers."
Was it Joseph who controlled his lust? Or, was it God's protection from sin that rendered him chaste?
Such is predestination.

 
For: Azure24

I was thinking to myself, if god loves everyone and knows everything and is all powerful. Why then if God knows the future, will he create a sould knowing it would go to Hell?

Dude, these are great questions! Asking these questions myself, lead me on a search for knowledge that is still going on. One thing I can say about my learning of Bible truths is that now I fear God, where as I didnt before. Now I see myself as small, and He's become huge!! I guess thats a good thing though, since Proverbs 1:7 says..."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge." I pray that God may use my answers to His glory and to your understanding (if in fact my understanding is correct). Concering your question about God's love. It is a common misunderstanding to say God loves everyone, but scripture paints another picture. While it is true that God does love the everyone, He does have a special convernant love for those whom He chooses to save. These people arent any better than humanity at large; as a matter of fact, God sees us all apart from Christ as evil (eventhough we will say different),. but God chooses to love them to display His Glory in forgiveness. This incidentally brings me to your other question..."why did God create? Life is all about God revealing all His excellencies and glory. God was not bored alone in eternity, but Created everything for His glory; which by the way is bound up in the full enjoyment of His creatures. Therefore, when we are fullly satisified in God who is infinitely better than everything, God is thus fully glorified in us, whereby He gets the glory and we the joy, which is the best of both worlds.

[/FONT]Why does hell exist if we do certain bad things in our lives (which most peoples lives is up to 80 approximately years) then why should someone suffer for enternity? Is that fair?

My goodness, I asked the same questions!! Here's what I found out: God is Holy. In fact, so much so that He cannot bare to look upon sin (Hab 1:13). Any sin, no matter how small it is to us, is infinitely great and wicked in the eyes of our Eternal Holy God. Its sort of like this: Say you were to kill an ant, it wouldnt be so much of a big deal. But, if you killed a person, it would be a big deal. And if you were to kill a president or king, still it would be an even bigger deal. There you have the same crime, yet the punishment increased depending on who it was done against. Crimes done against God have eternal consequence. Moreover, since God's goodness is eternally expressed in Heaven, His Justice and wrath is likewise eternally expressed. Finally, Hell exist because God made it for His glory. He is glorified in His justice. The Bible makes it clear that Hell is reasonable justice. No one who is just wants murders and rapist and child molestors and theives, etc., to grow free when they brake the laws. God is even more just that the most just of us...He will NOT Let the guilty go unpunished (Nahum 1:2). As for your question of is it fair? I like God's answers on that question. He says often concerning those kinds of questions, things like..."
But who indeed are you – a mere human being– to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:20) Ultimately, God says that it is wrong and arrogant of us to ask those kinds of questions. He declears that He is prefect and will do no wrong. Therefore, His judgements are always Just and right!

If God is all powerful one does he not destroy evil? Is there a reason?

God does destroy evil...Eternally, that is. 2 Thess. 1:9 as well as many other scriptures teach us that Hell exist as a place of eternal destruction. Thats how powerful He is and this is why we ought to do what scriptures say over and over again - namely, "Fear God and Keep His Commandments." This is why Christ came, to take away the sins of ALL those who would repent and TRUST in Him. Hell is real homey. Repent and trust in Jesus!

Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell?

Yes. As a Christian I know that Hell is real and thats why I witness and plead with men to consider Christ. Look at yourself in Light of what God considers good, namely, Jesus. How do you come up? Jesus has kept ALL of God's Ten Commandments, have you? If not, you are indebted to God's laws and MUST pay the price - God is HOLY, remember! If you see yourself in need of a Savior, one is provided for you. You have Jesus' promise that anyone who comes to Him he will not cast away. Trust in Jesus!

Is that fair?

More than you know now. If you can only get just a glimpse of God's holiness and your own sin, then you'd cry bitterly for Jesus.

If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell?

Religion does not save - Jesus does! Moreover, no one goes to Hell for not hearing about Jesus, they go there for breaking God's laws. Futhermore, God is Soverign, He has PROMISED to save all those who want to be saved and being born in a country that does not preach the gospel does not matter. Again, God is Soveregin...He is IN CONTROL - Total Control! He will get the gospel (means by which God uses to justify the end in Salvation) out to such a person.

What about people who die before they are born? I am religious but sometimes i have my doubt?:confused:

Im happy you asked these tough questions. I pray that God uses these answers to help (if I am right). As for people who die before they are born...Again, God is Sovereign...He will have mercy on whom he wills (Rom. 9:15, etc.).
 
SILAS said:
Say you were to kill an ant, it wouldnt be so much of a big deal. But, if you killed a person, it would be a big deal. And if you were to kill a president or king, still it would be an even bigger deal. There you have the same crime, yet the punishment increased depending on who it was done against.

Where did you get this may I ask? My Bible says.....
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

JM
 
Why then if God knows the future, will he create a sould knowing it would go to Hell?
Because He is true to His word when He gave man free will. To ensure that no man goes to hell would require the nergation of all that makes him human.

Why does hell exist if we do certain bad things in our lives (which most peoples lives is up to 80 approximately years) then why should someone suffer for enternity?
Do they? How do they? Can we measure the extent of God's infinite mercy? How long does eternity last? Might it not be a moment?

There are those who 'sleep in Christ' and there are those who are awake. I tend towards the idea that the sinner sleeps until the end of the Age. If, at that time of Restoration, there is no 'real' or 'good' to which the being of that person can cling, then that person dissolves within his/her fantasy, which has no reality, no actuality ... that's frightening enough for me, asd a concept., without medieval notions of fire and suffereing.

Perhaps people 'suffer' for as long as they cling to the cause of their suffering, in the way a guily person will oftern insist that they are justified in their guilt...

If God is all powerful one does he not destroy evil?
To do so would involve destroying the human race – or at least the idea of 'freedom'.

Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell?
Some do. Some don't. Catholics don't.

Is that fair?
It's a question of Justice. If there is no justice in the world, is that fair?

If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell?
Not necessarily.

What about people who die before they are born?
Then they have had no chance to wilfully sin – they have not lived a life for which to be held accountable.

Thomas
 
I'm avoiding the whole Hell part of this but when in comes to 'pre-ordained' or 'pre-destined' issue I kind of like C S Lewis' explanation in the Screwtape Letters; it goes a bit like this 'God exists outside of time as humans experience it, He experiences all of time like Humans experiance the present. He "sees" all of time like humans see the present- if man 1 saw man 2 kill man 3 in the present- man 1 didn't make man 2 kill man 3, he just witnessed the event, so just because God sees everything (remembering the above about time) doesn't mean he made or forced anyone to do anything'. (Just playing Devils advocate here- any argument about pre-ordained and pre-destined not being true from a Christian point-of-view falls flat on it's face when it comes to Jesus- he had no choice and what about poor Judas?)
 
One thing.... Oh lovley the almighty god gives us freedom we have free will, that is really great I am going to spend my time doing some really cool things. Time for some entertainment!! Alright...

god: "Nah, wait... you have to do everything I say and live by my rules and worship me non freakin stop.."

Oh so the free will was a real worthwhile thing... Good thinking.

It's like I make an awesome "thing" and it's meant to sit on my fireplace.. but I purposly made it wonky so it keeps freaking falling off... and never sits on the fireplace for more than a blink of an eye. Any one see where the logic is?![/quote]

You've still got the choice of following those rules or not... Just because you don't like the concequences of not doing so (or don't like the rules) doesn't negate the choice... Just a thought.
 
I'm avoiding the whole Hell part of this but when in comes to 'pre-ordained' or 'pre-destined' issue I kind of like C S Lewis' explanation in the Screwtape Letters; it goes a bit like this 'God exists outside of time as humans experience it, He experiences all of time like Humans experiance the present. He "sees" all of time like humans see the present- if man 1 saw man 2 kill man 3 in the present- man 1 didn't make man 2 kill man 3, he just witnessed the event, so just because God sees everything (remembering the above about time) doesn't mean he made or forced anyone to do anything'. (Just playing Devils advocate here- any argument about pre-ordained and pre-destined not being true from a Christian point-of-view falls flat on it's face when it comes to Jesus- he had no choice and what about poor Judas?)

I got away with this? no-ones going to 'take me to task' on the last point :-(
 
One thing.... Oh lovley the almighty god gives us freedom we have free will, that is really great I am going to spend my time doing some really cool things. Time for some entertainment!! Alright...

god: "Nah, wait... you have to do everything I say and live by my rules and worship me non freakin stop.."

Oh so the free will was a real worthwhile thing... Good thinking.

It's like I make an awesome "thing" and it's meant to sit on my fireplace.. but I purposly made it wonky so it keeps freaking falling off... and never sits on the fireplace for more than a blink of an eye. Any one see where the logic is?!

You've still got the choice of following those rules or not... Just because you don't like the concequences of not doing so (or don't like the rules) doesn't negate the choice... Just a thought.

Speaking from a Christian standpoint, mind you, we need to establish how and why God created Man in the beginning. That is, when He created Man, it was very good. There was harmony and peace in a relationship with God. But it is apparent that God wanted a being that had the capability to love Huim back. So God made man with the ability to choose. Oh, He could have made man to do his bidding, much like the pre-appointed girl chosen by the parents to marry Eddie Murphy in "Coming to America", who would stand of one leg and bark like a dog at command (great movie, you need to see it if you haven't already). But He didn't want that. He wanted someone who would love him back on their own accord. That is what the test was all about.

The commandment concerned a particular tree in the Garden, the Tree of the Knowledge of good and Evil. But there was another tree: the Tree of Life.

Which would Man choose? To eat of the Tree of knowledge meant separation from God, banishment from Paradise, and death. To eat of the Tree of Life, meant everlasting life.

Unfortunately, Man sinned and the whole human race, no, the whole of creation fell. What we have now is not the reality that God wanted us to have.

It is the Christian's belief that Christ came to restore all things back to God. That His resurrection validates this as a hope that we, too, will rise from the dead. But just as Adam had a choice to eat of the Tree of Life, we now have that same choice to believe in Christ for salvation in the promise of being part of that restoration, along with the rest of creation.

So when you talk about going to do some entertainment, what are you referring to? You seem to have the impression that believers in God doesn't want us to enjoy life. That somehow, God is cramping our style. Is that it?

On the contrary, if God created us, then He knows how best we can enjoy life. Yes, He has established boundaries for us, so that we can live peacibly with our fellow man. All the "rules" were meant to allow us to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Kingdom of God is all about relationships, for if we cannot live with each other, how can that be Paradise?

I love sex. And I suppose if I wanted to, I could go out and bang anything I can find (within reason, I do have some sense of morality and taste). But at what consequence? Certainly, I'd be committing adultery against my wife. How will it affect her? My selfish desires would devastate her. Our relationship would be shattered. And it would devastate my children, as well. And if we separate or divorce, how much more pain would that involve with all the financial and property dealings.

But more than that, I've learned to love my wife. And though I had casual sex before I married, I found that sex in a loving relationship is much more satisfactory than I'd ever thought. There is another dimension that the purely physical aspect. It has allowed me to become intimate spiritually and emotionally to her.

Now I'm not saying that I'm immune now to temptations, but I know that staying within the boundaries of marriage is going to have long-term benefits for my enjoyment and happiness in this life. My marriage is something I treasure. My family is something I dare not risk for a moment of rapturous pleasure with someone else.

And that is precisely the attitude I have in my relationship with God. For I have learned to love God and have known the benefits of such a relationship. And I can say, that I am the happiest I ever been, far more when I was running around in the world in my own accord, making choices that were not to my benefit in the long run, and sometimes making some that were pretty stupid.

But I credit God from bringing me out of a downward spiral that was ruining my life.
 
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