Islam and The Bahai Faith

imranshaykh said:
Dear Art;

Many thanks for your time to respond. My points:

1. If the 11th Imam dies in 260 AH and was not succeeded by another Imam immediately, who were the four deputies reporting to. Who appointed the four deputies - it cannot be the 11th Imam as the latter deputies were not even born at that time. Secondly, there is no indication that the 11th Imam appointed the deputies.

2. As regards the verse about 1,000 years is there some explanation by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imam (as) about the same.

3. Why is the calculation of the 1,000 years being done from the death of the 11th Imam. Is this verse refers to the term of Islam, revealed in the Quran, then Islam started 13 years prior to the Islamic calendar (the calender commenced at the migration of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) from Mecca to Medina. The Prophet had been in Mecca for 13 years before migration). Why are the 273 years not included in the calculation?

4. The tradition quoted from Imam Sadiq (as) has no reference and my research for all that it is worth has been unable to locate the reference. Surely given that Nabil / Shoghi Effendi came at least 1,000 years after Imam Sadiq (as) surely they would have read the tradition someplace. Can you please throw some light on this or let me know the source from at least one Islamic source.

5. If one even accepts the tradition in Dawn Breakers, there seems to be an apparent contradiction in Iqan and Dawn Breakers about the Mahdi. The Iqan alludes that there was no Imam, while the Dawn Breakers says that there was an Imam who dissappear and who would "re-appear" in 1,260.

6. There are more than 1,000 traditions about the Mahdi, narrated continuously over the centuries. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?

7. If we can accept one tradition about the Mahdi (as in Dawn Breaker), why should one ignore the other 1,000 traditions about him?

8. Why did the understanding of the Bab change over time. Did the Bab change over time? Is there some prophecy which outlines this change in the Bab - I mean, is there some literature which says that the 12th Imam would be known as the gate and then as the 12th Imam.

9. As regards the verses, I am aware that they are from Quran. Can you throw some light on them from a Muslim exegesis.

Thank you for your patience. I request your attention to these points as well.

Regards
Imran
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May I have your kind attention and response to these points.

Regards
Imran
 
arthra said:
Imran,

See my note #14 above for the Baha'i response...

- Art
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Dear Art:

The points were in response to your note #14. I was seeking a response after that one.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
If there are ambiguities in the prophecies they are I think rooted in the very nature of Shiah Islam... Once again I'll quote from an essay by Christopher Buck on the subject.

"Shi`ism identified its messianic figure, the Qa'im, as the occulted Twelfth Imam. But, historically, both Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá state that the Twelfth Imam never existed. Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."

- Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica


I'll repeat my earlier statement above:

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage?

The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

- Art
 
arthra said:
If there are ambiguities in the prophecies they are I think rooted in the very nature of Shiah Islam... Once again I'll quote from an essay by Christopher Buck on the subject. "Shi`ism identified its messianic figure, the Qa'im, as the occulted Twelfth Imam. But, historically, both Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá state that the Twelfth Imam never existed. Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."

- Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

I'll repeat my earlier statement above:

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage?

The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

- Art
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Dear Art:

Is Christopher Buck considered an authority on Islam or on the Mahdi? I would love to believe him, but I am yet to see any place where Bahaullah and Abdul Baha denied the birth of the 12th Imam. They may have voiced their concerns about his location, but his birth has been without any doubt.

Also, the fact that he makes out the concept of the 12th Imam to be a new one which is created by the Shiites. It is not true. Traditions about the 12th Imam exist from the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and even in books written before the birth of the 12th Imam.

nce again, I wish to draw your attention to the books and the writings of the Bab. When the Bab calls Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the Mahdi, the Qaem, the Sahibuz Zaman, the Baqiyatullah, was he pleading with a non existent person? Please do let me know which books of the Bab are ok for reading so that I may read those.

Secondly, while it may not be relevant, Christopher's view is totally against 1,000's of traditions and even Bahai views on the subject which claim that the Bab was the return of the "spirit of the twelfth Imam". If there was no twelfth Imam, then whose spiritual return was the Bab?

Also, which prophecies...you keep on mentioning that Bab fulfilled the prophcies, but which ones?

Regards
Imran
 
arthra said:
Imran,

You asked about Christopher Buck and you'll note the articles cited are found in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Anyone can check up on that project here

http://www.iranica.com/what_is_iranica/index.html

Christopher Buck is an academic with PHD and JD qualifications and he's published several books of interest to Baha'is and related studies..

- Art
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Many thanks for the clarification. However as you would have guessed, I will not take his words for granted just because he is an expert. Can we have the quotations of Bahaullah and Abdul Baha wherein they have denied the birth of the 12th Imam?

Incidentally, Christopher Buck views are even against the doctrines of Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai and Sayyed Kazim - both of whom were Shiites and are acknowledged by the Bahais as the forefunners of Babism.

Also, if you can share the list of Babi texts which are approved by the Bahais and which are not. I had requested if we can get a specific injuction from Bahaullah or Abdul Baha on the same. Or if there are "official" copies of Babi texts then I would appreciate it if you can share them with me. I will be happy to translate them into English for you.

I am particularly interested in Sahifae Adaliyah, Tafseere' Kausar, Dalaelus Sabah and Qayyamul Asma. All of these are available on the Internet if one makes a decent attempt to find them. I want to know if the texts available through h-net.org are considered reliable by the Bahais.

Regards
Imran
 
Well I think scholars are important as they represent a discipline that is checked and reviewed by their peers and when they publish articles it can be a rigorous process. People are always free of course to decide whether they accept something and for amny it's simply a matter of their faith.

But this matter of views of the Hidden Imam is not a simple matter I think... You mentioned Shaykh Ahmad and from what I gather he did not believe the Hidden Imam was a living physical person hiding somewhere on the earth but was rather in a world of archetypal images (the realm of Hurqalya) that required initiation.. so he had spiritualized this concept of the Hidden Imam.

Probably this is a bit arcane and requires some specialized knowledge to understand and I'm thinking of the translations and essays of Henry Corbin here... but most agree I think there was a messianic expectation going on in the early nineteenth century in Islam which was somewhat parallel to Christian groups expecting the Return of Christ.

- Art
 
Dear Imran Shaykh,

I am willing to have an open-minded and friendly discussion. Please let me know where you want to start.
 
justice_9 said:
Dear Imran Shaykh,

I am willing to have an open-minded and friendly discussion. Please let me know where you want to start.
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Hello Justice 9...

I don't recall meeting you ..... Welcome to the Baha'i section of CR!

Did you have some questions or issues you wanted to raise here?

- Art
 
Hi Art,

I wanted to address some of dear friend Imran's questions. I think it will be a good journey to discover answers to such questions.

Art/Brian,

Also, I am curious why the Baha'i Faith is on the "Modern Religions" section instead of the Abrahamic Religions section. The Baha'i Faith is 160 years only, not the "century" that defines the Modern Religions. Afterall, we are an Abrahamic religion.

Regards,
Hajir
 
justice_9 said:
Hi Art,

I wanted to address some of dear friend Imran's questions. I think it will be a good journey to discover answers to such questions.

Art/Brian,

Also, I am curious why the Baha'i Faith is on the "Modern Religions" section instead of the Abrahamic Religions section. The Baha'i Faith is 160 years only, not the "century" that defines the Modern Religions. Afterall, we are an Abrahamic religion.

Regards,
Hajir
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Well Hajir

I think the thread dealt with issues of the Baha'i Faith and Islam as you know and was not simply a place to respond to Imran..as it turns out he had some bias that were in my view antagonistic, but you may pose questions if you wish.

I wasn't really involved in the decision to place Baha'i Faith in this Modern Religions heading but I suppose one could classify it as a "modern" faith.

So if you have any questions you want to pose go ahead...

- Art
 
could you please outline some of the verses of the Quran which announce the coming of new messengers
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Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

First, consider the verses in the Scrolls that point to Mose (pbuh), then the verses in the Torah that point to Jesus (pbuh), and the verses in the Gospel that point to Muhammad (pbuh).

Now, as you read the Quran, you may recognize some of the verses that point to the Revelation of God to Bahaullah and the Bab. Only the Word and Revelation of God have the power to produce a new creation.

[21.104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

[29.19-20] See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah. Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

[50.15] Were We then fatigued with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation.

Best Regards,
Hajir
 
imranshaykh said:
1. You mentioned that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the twelfth Imam. Can you please outline specifically which of these prophecies did he fulfill?
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Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Should we focus our discussion on the fulfillment of the expectations of Shaykhi Islam or general Shia Islam, or, more broadly, only Quranic (so that we can include Sunni thought into our discussion)?
 
imranshaykh said:
1. And if the Bab was to actually come after 1,000 years, why the brief period of 69 years. Did Allah leave the people without any guide for more than 900 years?
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Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Please elaborate on this. What is the 69 year period you're refering to?

imranshaykh said:
2. There are more than 1,000 traditions which outline the Mahdi, his genealogy etc. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?
Click to expand...

I would say 1,000 traditions is a lot.

imranshaykh said:
3. Is the interpretation of the 1,000 years in the traditions as explained by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Holy Imams (as) the same as explained by yourself?
Click to expand...

The foundation for everything was planted by God through His Chosen Ones.

imranshaykh said:
4. When Islam started 13 years before the start of the Islamic calendar (the calendar started with the migration of the prophet from Mecca to Medina. The prophet at that time had already spent 13 years in Mecca), why is the 1,000 years being calculated from the death of the 11th Imam and not from the start of Islam? Is that a personal interpretation? Why are the 273 years (more than 25%) not taken into account for the calculation?
Click to expand...

We maintain that the continuous flow of divine guidance lasted beyond the passing of the Prophet Muhammad, justifying our starting point for the 1,000 years period.

imranshaykh said:
5. The tradition quoted in Dawn Breakers from Imam Sadiq (as) about the year 60 does not carry any reference. I have searched all over Muslim books - both Shiite and Sunni, without any luck for the same. This tradition apparently does not exist in any Islamic book. Given that there was a gap of definitely more than 1,000 years between Nabil / Shoghi Effendi and Imam Sadiq (as), surely they would have read it someplace. Can you please throw some light on this?
Click to expand...

Are you refering to Imam Sadiq's reference to year 69? This is based on verse Qur'an 38:88 "And most certainly you will come to know about it after a time." The phrase "after a time" has an Abjad equivalent of 69, with is equal to year 1269 or 1852, when Baha'u'llah received revelation from God in the Black Pit Dungeon of Tehran.


imranshaykh said:
6. If we are happy to accept one tradition about the Mahdi - then why would one ignore the 1,000 other traditions about him?
Click to expand...

Which ones are you refering to?

imranshaykh said:
7. There seems to be an apprarent contradiction between Iqan and Dawn Breakers. While the Iqan alludes that there was no physical 12th Imam, the Dawn Breakers mentions that there was a 12th Imam who physically disappeared.
Click to expand...

Please provide both references.

imranshaykh said:
8. Why did the understanding about the Bab change over time? Was this prophecised as well.
Click to expand...

Are you refering to the Bab's gradual unfoldment of His station?

Regards,
Hajir
 
BruceDLimber said:
Hi!

Obviously, if there's a disparity between The Dawn-Breakers and the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude), then the latter takes precedence as it is scriptural and the other is not!

Peace,

Bruce
Click to expand...

Hmmm...well you see the sources were never supplied so the discussion ended there.

- Art
 
arthra said:
Hmmm...well you see the sources were never supplied so the discussion ended there.

- Art
Click to expand...

I found myself on ImranShaykh's mailing list a few months ago. I asked him to remove me from the list which he did promptly, politely and expressed sorrow I was not able to deal with 'the truth'.

I don't think he is present here anymore. Is he still on the membership list?

Regards,
Scott
 
justice_9 said:
Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

First, consider the verses in the Scrolls that point to Mose (pbuh), then the verses in the Torah that point to Jesus (pbuh), and the verses in the Gospel that point to Muhammad (pbuh).

Now, as you read the Quran, you may recognize some of the verses that point to the Revelation of God to Bahaullah and the Bab. Only the Word and Revelation of God have the power to produce a new creation.

[21.104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

[29.19-20] See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah. Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

[50.15] Were We then fatigued with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation.

Best Regards,
Hajir
Click to expand...

Hi, happy to be back!

I visited this forum just to see what was new in terms of discussion and it so saw that there were many questions which were put up. So here I am again.

Your response was to my question about any verse in the Quran which points to the coming of a new Messenger. All the verses which you have quoted are about the Day of Judgement - keep the Muslim belief of the Day of Judgement in mind and consider that the atheists of the time disbelieved the prophet (pbuh) when he foretold of a Day when men would be brought back to life. They could not believe that Allah would bring Man back to life when his bones were decayed. Hence the verses which you have quoted above were revealed.

The above interpretation of the verses is not my own, but that of the Hoy Prophet of Islam and the Holy Imams. Refer to the last verses of Surah yaseen and you will see the same / similar words as in the verses above.

The "broad" interpretation of the verses that you have made based on the english translation is flawed. Why Bahaullah, any person, including Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani, the Mahdi from Sudan etc, all quoted the same verses to prove their message. And we Muslims, denied all of them simply because their interpretation is false. if one accepts your interpretation then any person can use those verses to make a claim of a new message from Allah.

having said that, we accept the Quran in its entirely. However for its interpretation, we do not rely upon ourselves - we rely on the same person whom Allah chose to reveal His message- The Holy Prophet (pbuh). FOr some reason, he always used these verses to indicate an actual day when all of Mankind would be raised and made answerable for their action - in effect, the Day of Judgement.

Regards
Imran
 
arthra said:
Hmmm...well you see the sources were never supplied so the discussion ended there.

- Art
Click to expand...

Aha, you are wrong my friend - read my web site, and you will find all the sources you want there.

Read God Passes by...etc
 
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