Islam and The Bahai Faith

Popeyesays said:
I found myself on ImranShaykh's mailing list a few months ago. I asked him to remove me from the list which he did promptly, politely and expressed sorrow I was not able to deal with 'the truth'.

I don't think he is present here anymore. Is he still on the membership list?

Regards,
Scott
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Hi Scott:

Still here. Am glad you testified to the fact that I was prompt in removing your name from my mailing lists.

Regards
Imran
 
justice_9 said:
Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Should we focus our discussion on the fulfillment of the expectations of Shaykhi Islam or general Shia Islam, or, more broadly, only Quranic (so that we can include Sunni thought into our discussion)?
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We can do general Islam wherein both Sunni and Shiah points are covered.

Regards
Imran
 
justice_9 said:
Dear friend Imran Shaykh,

Please elaborate on this. What is the 69 year period you're refering to?



I would say 1,000 traditions is a lot.



The foundation for everything was planted by God through His Chosen Ones.



We maintain that the continuous flow of divine guidance lasted beyond the passing of the Prophet Muhammad, justifying our starting point for the 1,000 years period.



Are you refering to Imam Sadiq's reference to year 69? This is based on verse Qur'an 38:88 "And most certainly you will come to know about it after a time." The phrase "after a time" has an Abjad equivalent of 69, with is equal to year 1269 or 1852, when Baha'u'llah received revelation from God in the Black Pit Dungeon of Tehran.




Which ones are you refering to?



Please provide both references.



Are you refering to the Bab's gradual unfoldment of His station?

Regards,
Hajir
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Hi:

It will help if you can read message #16 again and my replies were in relation to the quote outlined by Art in that message.

Also, as a general policy, as my posts will show, I will tend towards those arguments which have some sort of backing in terms of references - pure conjecture is not my style and not something I encourage in a rational discussion.

Regards
Imran
 
Why is the thousand years calculated from the year 260?

Because with the disappearance of the 11th Imam the genuine line of the authority of Muhammad came to an end.

With whom were the gates consulting? I don't know. It is not necessary that they be physically speaking to the 11th Imam, they might be spiritually communing with the 11th Imam who departed this physical world, but whose spirit was available to them. The communication was metaphoric, not physical.

The Mihdi would be a descendant of the line of Muhammad, through Fatima and Ali. Not once in His lifetime was the Bab denied the right of the green turban as a Siyyid. By the year 1260 how many tens of thousands of Siyyid were alive?

Regards,
Scott

PS, I found the thread. But I'm going to start one in Comparative Studies where the discussion might be less disruptive to the board. I think I'll title it:
Baha`i:Islam::Christianity:Judaism expressing "Baha`i is to Islam as Christianity is to Judaism" as a logical proposition.
 
Popeyesays said:
Why is the thousand years calculated from the year 260?

Because with the disappearance of the 11th Imam the genuine line of the authority of Muhammad came to an end. With whom were the gates consulting? I don't know. It is not necessary that they be physically speaking to the 11th Imam, they might be spiritually communing with the 11th Imam who departed this physical world, but whose spirit was available to them. The communication was metaphoric, not physical.

The Mihdi would be a descendant of the line of Muhammad, through Fatima and Ali. Not once in His lifetime was the Bab denied the right of the green turban as a Siyyid. By the year 1260 how many tens of thousands of Siyyid were alive?

Regards,
Scott

PS, I found the thread. But I'm going to start one in Comparative Studies where the discussion might be less disruptive to the board. I think I'll title it:
Baha`i:Islam::Christianity:Judaism expressing "Baha`i is to Islam as Christianity is to Judaism" as a logical proposition.
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Again it is sheer conjecture on your part without any proof that the deputies "may have been" spiritually communicating with the 11th Imam who dissappeared. Just to clarify for readers of this post, he did not "disappear". He was martyred.

Secondly, it is conjecture again from your side that the communication was spiritual not physical. And I can understand where you are coming from. Since the 11th Imam had expired, how does one explain the presence of the deputies? Simple, say that they were communicating "spiritually". And why were they communicating "spiritually" only with the 11th Imam? Why not the 10th Imam? Why not the Prophet of Islam? This entire spiritual communication theory put forth by you is well, your own theory without any proof.

Another pertinent question: Why did the Bab not forth these arguments when he was questioned about his claims? How come the Bahais are inventing these arguments now? If all this theories were true, the Bab should have raised them.

Also, if all Sayyids were eligible to be the Imam, then why only the Bab? Forget about just being a Sayyid, how many of them would have been named Ali Mohammed? Our Prophet (pbuh) knew this and that is why along with the Sayyid and a descendant of Fatemah (as), he prophecised that the Mahdi will be an Arab from his family of Bani Hashim! Not an Irani youth.

It is universally accepted that the Bab first claimed to be the Gate (Bab) of the hidden Imam. Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai and Sayyed Kazim Rashty, both acknowledged the presence of the 12th Imam. Now you want to tell me that there was no 12th Imam?

Finally, about the 1,000 years. Go and read the theory again. The Bahais claim that Islam lasted for 1,000 years and that in 1260 AH by the coming of Bab, Islam was superceeded by the Babi dispensation. Now we ask, why is 1,000 years being counted only from 260 AH. The first revelation of Islam came 273 years prior to that. If you wanted to calculate how long the Biblical dispensation lasted, it would be logical to start from the date of the first announcement of Christ, and not from the death of his last disciple. Read the theory again and question it objectively.

This thread is about Islam and the Bahai Faith. Now you want to start a new thread which will divert from this topic. Do it. Having said that Bahai is not to Islam what Christianity is to Judaism. First at least establish that Islam ever got superceeded by the Bahai Faith. I am requesting you again and again. Bring some Islamic proof that the Bab was the Mahdi. Once this is clear, then we can move ahead.

Regards, as always
Imran
 
Imranshaykh,

The same sorts of arguements that you are presenting can be used to claim that Muhammud's connection to prophecy is false also. Some things would be different of course but basically it would be the same arguements. This also applies to Jesus' claim to being the Messiah.

The bottom line is that The Bab carried markings of a prophet enough to create a new religion out of Islam thus reforming and redeeming Islam. This religion grew into the Baha'i Faith which is now a well established world religion. Wether you choose to believe it or not for all practical and spiritual purposes there is a prophet after Muhammud.

Did (Does) Islam need to be reformed? Of course it does. They are so divided amongst themselves that they cannot police their own ranks. The only time they are united is when they fight with the rest of the world.

The Islamic world united in sustained vocal and violent condemnation of a few cartoons. Yet when thousands of people died in the World Trade Centers you heard only a few brief whispers about how it might have been wrong and this was drowned out by boisterous celebration.

Will Islam reform itself? Yes, it will have to or the violence it beggets will bring the wrath of the rest of the world. The war in Iran is little league compared to what the world is capable of.

Right now the Baha'is of Islamic states are persecuted and discriminated against. Mind you know persons are coming to their rescue but if Islam continues to incure the wrath of the world the titanium jet fighters and unmanned drones will do the work of angels for the Baha'i and the work of demons to others.

There is a saying "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." I think this probably extends to religion also. The religion that prosteletyze by the sword shall reform by the bullet and the bomb. When Muslim armies put people to the sword and said accept Islam and the prophet Muhammud or die people converted. It worked like a charm. The day is soon coming when the world will say reform and condemn this violence or be annihilated. I bet that works like charm too.

In short; Why waste your time on silly oneway arguments? Why not just reform now by accepting the Baha'i religion. It really could save a lot of families not to mention villages and cities ;)
 
DynoMight said:
Imranshaykh,

The same sorts of arguements that you are presenting can be used to claim that Muhammud's connection to prophecy is false also. Some things would be different of course but basically it would be the same arguements. This also applies to Jesus' claim to being the Messiah.

The bottom line is that The Bab carried markings of a prophet enough to create a new religion out of Islam thus reforming and redeeming Islam. This religion grew into the Baha'i Faith which is now a well established world religion. Wether you choose to believe it or not for all practical and spiritual purposes there is a prophet after Muhammud.

Did (Does) Islam need to be reformed? Of course it does. They are so divided amongst themselves that they cannot police their own ranks. The only time they are united is when they fight with the rest of the world.

The Islamic world united in sustained vocal and violent condemnation of a few cartoons. Yet when thousands of people died in the World Trade Centers you heard only a few brief whispers about how it might have been wrong and this was drowned out by boisterous celebration.

Will Islam reform itself? Yes, it will have to or the violence it beggets will bring the wrath of the rest of the world. The war in Iran is little league compared to what the world is capable of.

Right now the Baha'is of Islamic states are persecuted and discriminated against. Mind you know persons are coming to their rescue but if Islam continues to incure the wrath of the world the titanium jet fighters and unmanned drones will do the work of angels for the Baha'i and the work of demons to others.

There is a saying "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." I think this probably extends to religion also. The religion that prosteletyze by the sword shall reform by the bullet and the bomb. When Muslim armies put people to the sword and said accept Islam and the prophet Muhammud or die people converted. It worked like a charm. The day is soon coming when the world will say reform and condemn this violence or be annihilated. I bet that works like charm too.

In short; Why waste your time on silly oneway arguments? Why not just reform now by accepting the Baha'i religion. It really could save a lot of families not to mention villages and cities ;)
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I hope you are joking and this is not the argument that Bahais present when confronted with the question that please explian how the Bab became the 12th Imam.

My question has nothing to do with the state of Islam today. Nor the state of Bahaism today. I am concerned with my own death and the questioning in the grave. If the Bab is the true Mahdi, then I must accept him. But not in the manner you propose. I will do my research and to quote a Bahai principle, "do my own independent investigation of the truth." Seeking the truth requires one to put aside one's prejudices and seek answers through questioning. I am doing just that.

Once again, I hope to God that you are joking. If you dont have the answer, thats ok. But dont give me the crap about the state of Islam and how it has to change please.

Regards, as always
Imran
 
Imranshaykh says:
"My question has nothing to do with the state of Islam today. Nor the state of Bahaism today. I am concerned with my own death and the questioning in the grave. If the Bab is the true Mahdi, then I must accept him. But not in the manner you propose. I will do my research and to quote a Bahai principle, "do my own independent investigation of the truth." Seeking the truth requires one to put aside one's prejudices and seek answers through questioning. I am doing just that."

Watch your footing behind statements like that, the problem with bull droppings is that they're slippery when fresh.
 
I would suggest here that we Baha'is do not support the war in Iraq or Afganistan, etc. Politically we are neutral and are forbidden partisanship.

Our hope and prayer is that through internationalism represented say in bodies like the United Nations or the Interenational Court of Arbitration, that wars and reprisals can be reduced and in time eliminated... that the nations will also reduce their expenditures on weaponry and direct their energies to the very needed services to their own people and to provide social stability in their borders...

- Art
 
Popeyesays said:
Imranshaykh says:
"My question has nothing to do with the state of Islam today. Nor the state of Bahaism today. I am concerned with my own death and the questioning in the grave. If the Bab is the true Mahdi, then I must accept him. But not in the manner you propose. I will do my research and to quote a Bahai principle, "do my own independent investigation of the truth." Seeking the truth requires one to put aside one's prejudices and seek answers through questioning. I am doing just that."

Watch your footing behind statements like that, the problem with bull droppings is that they're slippery when fresh.
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I will remember that my friend.

Regards, as always
Imran
 
arthra said:
Apropos to the topic is a web site that may assist those seeking greater understanding of the relationship between Baha'i Faith and Islam:
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I have seen this web site and read each word of it. While I do not wish to dismiss it, I would definitely like to make 3 points:

1. There is no author to the web site which seriously impacts its credibility.

2. It does not even have a feedback mechanism if one wishes to question what is written which gets people like myself to question the very motive of the web site.

3. I have questions for each and every page of the web site and for every verse quoted in the site, I could offer atleast 10 traditions of the Prophet whose interpretation is totally different than that quoted in the web site.

I also wish to ask the administrator - why is it that the Bahais are allowed to post all the links they want, even if it is to a web site whose credentials are not established as yet? But I am not permitted to link my web site even if it is relevant to the topic under discussion? Based on my experience, this link should be removed. The web sites misrepresents the verses of the Quran and twists their interpretation to suit Bahai concepts.

If anybody wishes, lets take each verse and discuss it threadbare here.

Regards, as always
Imran
 
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