Progressive Christianity

wil said:
Q and I Bri, we've talked about this before and it is often rejected, but this is a perfect example yet again for a need for a liberal/progressive christianity walled garden. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion. We are not alternative, we are already becoming mainstream, many churches, many denominations are moving in progressive directions...hell is getting smaller as we speak.
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I thought that was the reason this thread is in the Belief and Spirituality forum. That is what I said in the beginning of this thread. I have been adamant in the past to preserve the Christianity forum to the mainstream/orthodox views. But when discussions of this nature are introduced, there ought to be a place where we can amicably discuss the matter without feeling like we are stepping on anyone's spiritual or theological toes. Progressive Christianity is most definitely not mainstream. However, I think that it is instructive in understanding more broader views of the Christian faith, alternative or not.

This IS the place for Progressive Christianity. But it certainly hasn't become mainstream...at least not yet.
 
flowperson said:
Dondi:

IMHO, Jesus came to show us not what was, but what would be, and He did so through His life, works, and legacy. Since the realm He came from, the realm of the "word" which is timeless and eternal, that would not be a problem for such a visionary. I believe that we are observing what He predicted would come to pass, a changing of the world and the people in it.

He was a herald of a novel type of human existence, and today there are many others around such "newbies" who are jealous of their nature and abilities. The jealous ones are full of envy and wish to turn the clock back to the way things were before the changes began, but that cannot be done. It's all happening around us right now, IMO. That's what all the deception, lies, and conflict are about I believe.

flow....:cool:
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Flow, can you elaborate? Sorry, we're always asking for elaboration. I sense you are talking about things of which I have no real understanding and I would like better insight if you don't mind explaining more specifically what changes you are talking about.

Ruby
 
Namaste Dondi and Q,

How about the rubber meeting the road? Three posters all within an hour and half of each other, I assume all our churches are in the same realm.

How about leaving the virtual and allowing the comparative to come to reality?

Seeing the similarities and the differences? Taking three Sundays to visit each others places of worship, taking three Sundays to meet each other outside of cyberspace....I know I'm putting the burden on both of you, as I am central to both, and both of you will have to travel the furthest to get to each others churches...but what say you...this'll be 'progressive'!
 
RubySera_Martin said:
Flow, can you elaborate? Sorry, we're always asking for elaboration. I sense you are talking about things of which I have no real understanding and I would like better insight if you don't mind explaining more specifically what changes you are talking about.

Ruby
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Hi Ruby, liked your last post !

It's hard being specific, but it is all being driven, as I've said elsewhere, by the intimate integration of novel scientifically designed technologies that, by their very nature, will cause us to evolve and change into beings that perhaps we might not be able to recognize as human in, say, another four hundred years or so. This is happening to our bodies and our brains at the genomic and molecular levels, and it's no accident. But I still believe that G-d's in charge, depending upon one's version of belief in Him/Her.

flow....;)
 
wil said:
Namaste Dondi and Q,

How about the rubber meeting the road? Three posters all within an hour and half of each other, I assume all our churches are in the same realm.

How about leaving the virtual and allowing the comparative to come to reality?

Seeing the similarities and the differences? Taking three Sundays to visit each others places of worship, taking three Sundays to meet each other outside of cyberspace....I know I'm putting the burden on both of you, as I am central to both, and both of you will have to travel the furthest to get to each others churches...but what say you...this'll be 'progressive'!
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Hey guys. When you get burned out on all of that, c'mon out to the high desert and we can Party Down..WoooHooo !

flow....:p
 
wil said:
Q and I Bri, we've talked about this before and it is often rejected, but this is a perfect example yet again for a need for a liberal/progressive christianity walled garden. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion. We are not alternative, we are already becoming mainstream, many churches, many denominations are moving in progressive directions...hell is getting smaller as we speak.
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I agree it would be welcome - I'm simply trying to see how how to split up faith boards into subgroups without making the walls too thick and deep.

I'm currently examning the board structure, to see what changes may work best overall.
 
Hi, Peace to All Here---

What an interesting thread! I am glad you started it, RubySera_Martin. I don’t believe we have formerly met, so let me just say that I am happy to do that now. I apologize ahead of time for the long post. I usually try to avoid being so verbose, but I could not decide where to edit, so I am just leaving it as it is. And there may have been several posts made since I started this one, so I hope it won’t look too out of place.

There are so many statements on this thread that I would like to wrap quotes around that I have had a difficult time choosing, so I don’t think I will, at least not right now. But I would like to thank Dondi for expressing so honestly and clearly what I believe to be on the minds of many Christians similar to myself these days. And not just these days, but also probably throughout the history of the faith. To hopefully paraphrase part of what you posted early on, Dondi, (and this is in extremely short terms), “If God is Love, how can He just throw away so many lives? But if expressed belief in Jesus as Christ is the only way to God, then this seems to be what He says He will do. Surely we must be misinterpreting His message???”

Well, it does appear that, according to what has been included in the Christian Bible, Old and New Testaments, both Protestant and Catholic, believers in the God of Isreal have often missed The Truth. Not only this, but if Jesus is the Christ—The Way, The Truth, and The Life—many of us will continue to misunderstand, misinterpret, and even overlook the obvious until the very end of this Biblical age. (Please understand that I am not preaching here, just pointing out that this is the way it reads. I am aware of and desire to respect the board on which I am posting. I am grateful that we can come here as Christians of various thought processes to calmly discuss something that is and should be on our hearts and minds. I am also saddened that the consensus here seems to be that we cannot do it on the Christian board. I feel like we could, but I might be wrong.)

Anyway, back to the idea that we have and do sometimes misunderstand much of what is written in the Bible—it may appear that I am rambling for a while, but please bear with me, as I am trying to address the issue at hand.

Many people believe (and I am one) that the written Word cannot be understood properly unless taken as a whole, with all of it’s perceived contradictions and possible tamperings. And this not without a leap of faith. It is my belief that all creation is at least subconsciously “aware” of the existence of the Great Spirit often referred to as “God”. The Christian Bible says that God is Love, and that humans used to walk with Him without fear until we allowed ourselves be deceived—we took the wrong risk, the one that required less faith, the bet that appeared to be the surefire solution to needs and wants we didn’t even have until someone came along and manipulated us into believing otherwise. The Father knew, like any parent invested in the lives of his or her children, that this would happen. He knew that we could not be complete without being faced with this sort of choice. And I believe that He knew what our choice would be (Him being God and all.:) ) Whether one takes the story of The Fall literally or symbolically or both, the central message is clear. Again, this is my belief, but I am certain I am not alone in it. Anyway, my point is that availing ourselves to any kind of love, particularly this almighty, all-powerful, all-seeing one, is scary and risky, and it requires faith to embrace it and take it into our very being. Without at least a perceived risk, there can be no act of faith. And without an act of faith, we cannot begin to properly comprehend the written Word of God. But when it is written on our hearts, the Spirit opens our eyes, and we understand that there is something very important about things like the Roman altar to “The Unknown God” and the faith of the Roman Centurian. We start to see that God does not desire to exclude anyone, and the Word on my heart is that He will achieve His desire. Men and women may tell us otherwise, but I am going to have to believe what the God of Love writes on my heart as I study His Word.

Personally, I see Christianity as being "progressive" from its very beginning--a thought that I believe has been expressed here on this thread in several different ways by several different people without using those exact words. I might even go so far as to submit that the great "I Am" is, and always has been, progressive. Forever the same, unchanging in essence, yet omnidirectional. If I am to believe "Him", then of course He Is. ;)

I think that the reason the term "progressive" puts many people off is that it can imply a threat. I say it all the time: Human language is limited and imperfect. But Jesus often employed parables to address issues that were difficult for people, even those closest to Him, to understand. While I do not have the same command over metaphor as He, I will attempt to dip into that well by talking, as He often did, about breadmaking. :)

When I make bread, the dough goes through so many changes! I mix it, I knead it, I stretch it, I raise it, I punch it down and and allow it to rise again. It is messy and it takes lots of my time. I get flour all over the kitchen and myself, and I have to clean things up more than once. But when I bake it, my home and my soul is filled with the most heavenly aroma I believe can be created in one’s oven. And when it is finished, what do I do with that beautiful bread? I consume it—it becomes part of me. Okay, yes, in the physical sense, my body will use what it needs for nutrition and expel the rest, but my Spirit will rejoice in what I have created, and that remains a part of me, and I do not forget it—it is more than the memory of one loaf of bread. Much, much more.

Think of Martin Luther: He was considered heretical to most of the Christian world at the time he posted his “Ninety-Five Theses on the Castle Church door in Whittenburg and kicked off the Protestant Reformation. And to this day, I think it is safe to say that he is not one of Catholicism’s favorite sons.:eek: Yet here we are, Catholics and Protestants and otherwise, discussing peacefully the idea of “Progressive Christianity”. It is dough that has been stretched and kneaded many times. :)

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove...Simply marvelous.

Yes...I somehow knew that you baked bread. I use a sour starter that my first wife's mother gave me that is now about 160 years old. I renew it every time I bake.

I've been doing the same thing for about forty years. And now my son does the same. People have asked me," Why don't you do it with a machine...less mess...less risk...less...."

I answer, " Because bread is a living thing that desires to be made and shaped with human hands, not machine parts...."

And when it is baked, when it has made my place smell so good in the morning, when I eat a warm heel with spread and brown sugar on it, then I know that once again that I have done a right thing. I have created an original spiritual experience...again... with G-d's help.

Peace...flow....:p
 
wil said:
. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion.
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Looks like Quahom got the message and isn't posting here anymore. I'm sure if he'd been going to respond he would have done so by now. So it should be "safe" to continue our discussion.

Just before the disruption we had been talking about the verse where Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me."

Dondi had raised the following question:

What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?

Your thoughts?

​
Wil and I presented two different ways in which perhaps we don't have to choose but that all three go together. Wil suggested the mystical union of the father and son and Christian. He also used the analogy of the internet and all of us being part of it. I posited the idea that the living out of the three is the natural outcome of being true to what one was born to be.

Any other questions, thoughts, or comments on this verse? Or perhaps on some other aspect of progressive Christianity? I loved to see people posting so actively and sharing from the heart.

I got the idea that this is a topic that really needs airing. Let's not be stopped by one disruption. Of course, perhaps everybody said everything they have to say. In that case, we can put the topic to bed for now.

Ruby
 
RubySera_Martin said:
Looks like Quahom got the message and isn't posting here anymore. I'm sure if he'd been going to respond he would have done so by now. So it should be "safe" to continue our discussion.

Just before the disruption we had been talking about the verse where Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me."

Dondi had raised the following question:

What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?

Your thoughts?



​
Wil and I presented two different ways in which perhaps we don't have to choose but that all three go together. Wil suggested the mystical union of the father and son and Christian. He also used the analogy of the internet and all of us being part of it. I posited the idea that the living out of the three is the natural outcome of being true to what one was born to be.

Any other questions, thoughts, or comments on this verse? Or perhaps on some other aspect of progressive Christianity? I loved to see people posting so actively and sharing from the heart.

I got the idea that this is a topic that really needs airing. Let's not be stopped by one disruption. Of course, perhaps everybody said everything they have to say. In that case, we can put the topic to bed for now.

Ruby
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Going back to my original premise, I'd like to look at each individually:

The Way -
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hodos {hod-os'}

Look at Jesus's ministry: how He lived, the compassion He demonstrated in healing the sick, feeding the poor, the mercy He demonstrated. In Matthew 25, He explains the difference between true and false followers in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Those who fed the poor, gave drink to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, were the ones allowed into the Kingdom, for doing these things are the same as doing it to Him. The only difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did or didn't do.

The Truth -
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aletheia {al-ay'-thi-a}

Jesus is called the Word. As Jesus prayed in John 17, He prayed to the Father, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Jesus imparted His teachings, His words to the disciples and had them spread His word to the scattered towns in Israel. In John 6:63, Jesus explains, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." And in John 15:3, Jesus tells the disciples, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Life -
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zoe {dzo-ay'}

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" - John 11:25

Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection demonstrated the power of God to raise us up to new life by the Spirit of God:

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." - Romans 8:11

I agree that it is important to understand all three aspects: the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

But is it possible that if someone was living the Way, for example, that is being compassionate to one's neighbor, etc, that he/she would in essence be living the life of Christ and thus be granted entrance into the Kingdom as indicated in Matthew 25. Would that be enough, assuming a lack of knowledge on the other two aspects of John 14:6?
 
Dondi, thank you for starting up discussion again.

I like how you summarized each of the three different items this time. I was not quite able to get your meaning from the dictionary definitions earlier. Here is how I now see each item in a nutshell:

The Way=good works of material/physical compassion
The Truth=Jesus' teachings
Life=vitality, the power of God, enthusiasm, joy of the Lord

Tell me if I'm still not getting your meaning.

You ask:

But is it possible that if someone was living the Way, for example, that is being compassionate to one's neighbor, etc, that he/she would in essence be living the life of Christ and thus be granted entrance into the Kingdom as indicated in Matthew 25. Would that be enough, assuming a lack of knowledge on the other two aspects of John 14:6?
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What I'm saying here is based on my "nutshell" understanding as listed above. I think the answer is yes to some extent. My hesitance to giving a full yes is that I think the three overlap so much as to make it impossible to live one and not the other two.

The New Testament references to the gifts of the spirit and how these are unevenly distributed i.e. some are teachers, some have some other calling, etc. also comes to mind. Some people are called to serve as nurses or perhaps in charity organizations that focus on basic survival needs of food, clothing, and shelter.

Others are called primarily to preach Jesus' teachings, which might be the "truth" aspect. But I don't know how to fit in the "life" aspect as a solitary item--maybe as an enthusiasm for life regardless of what station one finds oneself in. That might include virtues like "joy in the Lord."

I think the person who is preaching may also have enthusiasm and as time allows help the poor. I think the person who focuses on physical needs also needs spiritual sustenance and enthusiasm for life. The person who is filled with enthusiasm or the joy of the Lord hopefully also participates in his or her community in some practical way and know the teachings of Jesus.

That's the best I can make of it at the moment. I look forward to the contributions of others.

Ruby
 
Yes, you pretty much have grasped what I was getting at. Plus that Life includes the power to resurrect. And your right, there is some overlap.

I was mainly speaking in terms of salvation, rather than exhibiting gifts of the Spirit, which is given after one is saved.

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." - John 1:7

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

"...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:..." Luke 12:48

Would it not be right for God to judge according to the light that has been given to someone in this life? The angle I'm presenting here is that if someone is doing the will of God through service to the best of his/her knowledge, but lacks other aspects of the Way, Truth, and Life, that God will consider this.

Many denominations stress salvation by grace, others by grace through sacraments, rituals, and works, and still others through methodology, etc. But each of these ways seems to have their merits which can fall on any or all of these three aspects of Jesus. So in a sense, Christ can be accessed in a number of means. The point is that one's heart is geared toward God. and I think many debates come out of a misunderstanding that God is tied to one particular means. But God is able can work in the heart where the person is. God can multitask.



 
Dondi, I love this--God can multi-task:).

I keep feeling like I should apologize for participating in this topic because my views are so radical. I guess I won't apologize because it seems people in this thread like when I participate but I do think it is ethical that I make my position clear so readers have something by which to evaluate my ideas.

Like I've stated in that long post, I do not beleive that the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven or salvation are in some future place and time. I believe they are right here and now in this life. For a quick summary of my feelings on this, see Post 4 in the thread "Post-Theist Christianity" (I'm not exactly sure of the title but it's something like that). I don't have time to really study it right now but I feel Post 4 in that thread is something I may be able to identify with.

Dondi said:

Would it not be right for God to judge according to the light that has been given to someone in this life? The angle I'm presenting here is that if someone is doing the will of God through service to the best of his/her knowledge, but lacks other aspects of the Way, Truth, and Life, that God will consider this.
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This is basically what I was taught in the church where I grew up. I most definitely believe it. Let me comment on your opening: Would it not be right for God...

I have very mixed feelings about such statements. It is the way my reasoning goes but then I ask myself: What is going on here? Is God subject to some law humans can think up? If I have enough insight to dole out this kind of justice (were I the ruler of the universe; can't attain idealistic goals as a human) and God is supposed to be so much bigger and stronger than I a mere human, then of course God will be this merciful. PLUS lots more.

So that's my take on it. Others may think differently.

 
What does G-d care?

I believe G-d does not judge us, in any way shape or form. G-d sees us as healthy and whole and made in the image...

G-d doesn't see our sin, this is us beating up on ourselves, it is that little valve that was put in us to actually care. Some think some folks don't have it, it appears like that at moments, lifetimes even...

I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them. This is all part and parcel of our growth curve, how much time, how many lifetimes it takes us to understand that is upto us....gotta love free will.
 
wil said:
What does G-d care ?...
I believe we are not punished for our sins but by them. ....gotta love free will.
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I decided to step into the candy store !!! :) At least it smells great in here !

I don't really know, but I am of the opinion that G-d does care over the long term, otherwise nature would not be so proficient at repairing herself after she is damaged. However Sh/He (G-d) is perfectly willing to only set things in the universe into motion and let free will and choice wreak their blessings and damages upon us all over the flows of time.

The only problem with current conditions is that technological superiority, power, and control in the hands of the few ( read "plutocracy" here) can wreak horrible damage upon the welfare of the many if the few are egregious sinners...or to paraphrase what you said wil..."the wages of sin are death". Or as the Beatles taught us, "Instant karma's gonna getcha".

flow....:cool:
 
wil said:
Did we invent it? Can we invent anything? Or is it a combination of us assembling that which is already in the ethers?
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I dunno. It's not something I grew up knowing about. It's not in the Bible. But it's supposed to be GOOD! That's the catch. The way you said it, it seems it can take all etenity for us to learn something just because we have the freedom to refuse to learn. Now if we were programmed like the animals are we wouldn't need that much time.

So here we are--stuck with free will and all its blessings...and...did I hear "curse"??? That's kinda what it seems like--after all eternity is an awful long time...At least, it used to be back when I was calculating whether or not I could stand it in case I didn't measure up. And measuring up back when I was thirteen seemed impossible.

It still is, depending whose standard I choose to measure up to. But there you've got it--freewill in its positive form. Yay!!!
 
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