What/who is G-d?

[wil]

Namaste Ruby,

You are more than right, I only speak from my vantage point and my level of understanding and my experiences. I do not share the world you grew up in, I do not share the world of the middle east, nor the world of those in Africa dealing with poverty, AIDS, insufficeint water and food supplies... I have none of that exposure.

I do know the pain of the burn on the woodstove, and the issue with the heat as you describe so eloquently....but I don't know the feeling of someone telling me I have to continue a chore which exasperbates the issue.

I do know that your story is valued here, your experiences and education have produced a combination that is of extreme value to this world...the one you are in, and the one you left.

I cannot imagine parting with family, or being put in a situation where that choice was the best choice. However I do realize many are in that position.

I do not mean to imply that I am advising anyone. I am relaying my experiences, and my work. It is what I need to do is understand why the various circumstances that befall me, the variety of people that I encounter..what they mean to my soul growth, why I signed up for this course, and how best to use the education that I have gleaned.

I am not indicating that is or should be your mantra, it is my mantra in this incarnation.

As indicated by others I so appreciate your willingness to open our eyes to understanding there is more than meets the eye.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Wil thanks for understanding. I was quite sure that was what you meant but somehow I knew I had to clear it up if I want to retain healthy relationships on here. And I want to.

Flow, Marty's work is on my list of readings. It has been for quite a few years but I'm getting closer to actually reading at least portions of it. Thanks for the background on him.

 

[InLove]

Hi and Peace to All Here

I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon reading through this entire thread. Would I be correct in saying that there is a touch of “Zen Christianity” here? I never have understood exactly what that term meant, but then I have never been very good at labels. It is something I would like to explore further at some point.

Speaking of me not being very good at labels, I’d just like to address some of Ruby’s comments, if I may.

Ruby, I can’t begin to tell you how sad your story makes me. I have a good friend who, like you, left a Mennonite community and was officially “shunned” by family and friends for many years. Out of respect for her, I won’t go into details, but what happened still hurts her deeply, although she has found a beautiful life outside of where she grew up.

Before I go on, let me first say that I am not here to “bash” the Mennonites. The order where my friend grew up was located for years here in Texas, not too far from me, and recently returned to Pennsylvania. I would stop by their bakery when I was on the road. I even purchased several of their books. I was always treated decently when I was there. But I personally know very little about how it is to grow up within their fold.

Anyway, it might surprise you to know that my friend became a Baptist! She has attended a Missionary Baptist church for years, where her husband has been the youth minister, music minister, a deacon, and is now ordained to perform the duties of a pastor when called upon to do so. They are happy, pleasant, and young-at-heart, even though both of them have been through so much that one might expect them to shake their fists at God and call it quits.

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that you should become a Baptist. What I am trying to get at, however, is this: I feel certain that they would describe themselves as “Fundamentalist Christians”. But you would never find them at a gay-bashing rally or out somewhere shouting ugly things at young women who were considering abortion. I don’t even think that they would approach you at work and ask you if you had “found Jesus”. (If you asked them, they would probably invite you to their home and church, though, and sit with you for as long as you wanted and talk about it.) Anyone is welcome to visit their congregation, even though I know there are certain belief requirements to join.

It is my opinion—make that my belief—that what the press and increasingly the general public refers to as “Fundamentalist Christian” is a misnomer, and one that causes a great deal of confusion. There is a noisy, dangerous bunch of political hoodlums out there who do inflict what you have described as “religious abuse” over and over again on others. This has absolutely nothing to do with the “fundamentals” of Christianity. I know I am safe in saying that there are many Muslims who feel the same way about terrorists and powermongers who call themselves “Islamic Fundamentalists”. They have happily stolen the title, and the real fundamentalist believers are now unfairly lumped in together with them in the minds of people around the world.

Well, someone has to say it! (Please know that I am not necessarily including those folks that someone has described as "annoying" Christians--many of these people are just true evangelists who may need a little work on their delivery)

Okay, switching gears again (sort of)—I am also confused by the label of “fundamentalist” as it might apply to the Mennonites. I never would have thought of them that way.

So, perhaps my views are strange when it comes to labels—I welcome any comments. I hope I have not been offensive--I am only trying to help and to clarify some points. And I hope I am not straying too far from the original topic on the thread, but it appears to be the direction it has taken.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon reading through this entire thread. Would I be correct in saying that there is a touch of “Zen Christianity” here?

Some like to think of it that way. Earl has made mention of being a "Zen Christian" several times. Personally, I like to just think of my approach as just "Christianity," i.e. reflecting on the stories about Jesus and his teachings and going where that takes me.*

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that you should become a Baptist. What I am trying to get at, however, is this: I feel certain that they would describe themselves as “Fundamentalist Christians”. But you would never find them at a gay-bashing rally or out somewhere shouting ugly things at young women who were considering abortion. I don’t even think that they would approach you at work and ask you if you had “found Jesus”. (If you asked them, they would probably invite you to their home and church, though, and sit with you for as long as you wanted and talk about it.) Anyone is welcome to visit their congregation, even though I know there are certain belief requirements to join.

"Fundamentalism" can mean for you whatever you want it to mean (as is true with everyone else), though you might not receive what someone is telling you when they say something is "fundamentalism" unless you try to relate to how their use of its connects up to the story in which they use the word.

To say that someone is defining "fundamentalism" wrong is to not listen to what they mean when they use it. The first thing is to try to understand how the person(s) relate the word to their experience and whether you can relate it to something similar in your experience. If you have a similar experience (and you probably do, though not always), the meaning of the word will come through to you and you will have "heard" the message the word was carrying. Maybe you and the person using the word can agree on some other word for the experience, but before you can agree on a word, you have to try to work out whether you are having a shared experience. And someone else might come along and not like your agreed word because they associate that word with a very different experience than the one you shared in arriving at your word.

Isn't language cool?



*My apologies to anyone who doesn't like when I try to explain what I mean when I use a particular word.

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

One runs the risk of creating an hostile emotional response by accusing someone of being "wrong" when they subjectively relate their symbols and words to their own personal "real" experience. Sometimes this is hard to avoid, because a person might not include an explanation of the experiences that they associtate with a word or a metaphor. It's seems unlikely that such an explanation will be forthcoming if that person feels that their experiences (whether stated or not) are being negated by someone else (i.e. they feel as though they are "under attack" for their words or ideas).

Perhaps the better approach is to ask "what do you mean when you say [ ]?" This tells the person we are communicating with: (1) that the person's experiences are of interest to us (and thus, the person herself is of interest to us); and, (2) it signals an interest in continued dialogue rather than debate.*



*hat tip to Jamarz for adding a useful nuance of the word "debate" and its relationship to "dialogue" to my lexicon.

 

[InLove]

Hi, Peace--

(I would have been here sooner, but still having trouble with the "last post" feature!)

Abogado del Diablo

]Some like to think of it that way. Earl has made mention of being a "Zen Christian" several times. Personally, I like to just think of my approach as just "Christianity," i.e. reflecting on the stories about Jesus and his teachings and going where that takes me.*

[/FONT]

Yes, I tend to agree with you on your approach to not only this "label" issue, other ones, as well. (Can ya tell?) And I admit that I was sort of looking for Earl's insight here, as well (go easy on me, my friend Earl--getting out my dictionary ).

Abogado del Diablo

]"Fundamentalism" can mean for you whatever you want it to mean (as is true with everyone else), though you might not receive what someone is telling you when they say something is "fundamentalism" unless you try to relate to how their use of its connects up to the story in which they use the word.

To say that someone is defining "fundamentalism" wrong is to not listen to what they mean when they use it. The first thing is to try to understand how the person(s) relate the word to their experience and whether you can relate it to something similar in your experience. If you have a similar experience (and you probably do, though not always), the meaning of the word will come through to you and you will have "heard" the message the word was carrying. Maybe you and the person using the word can agree on some other word for the experience, but before you can agree on a word, you have to try to work out whether you are having a shared experience. And someone else might come along and not like your agreed word because they associate that word with a very different experience than the one you shared in arriving at your word.

[/FONT]

In essence, Abogado, we may actually be saying almost the same thing. I just felt that the ongoing confusion about what the true fundamentals of Christian belief really are has made it necessary for someone to point out that it indeed can be a very serious issue in some cases.

Abogado del Diablo

]Isn't language cool?

[/FONT]

Yes, but insufficient at times, 'Enri 'Iggins! .

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

(Apparently, I am having trouble with more than one feature! Sorry about the "font" thing, but I cannot get back to edit!)

 

[Dondi]

Thanks, Flow. I know that not many people tell stories to make their point and I've thought I should adopt another method because some people take it that I'm flaunting myself, my knowledge, or whatever. Telling a story to make a point is just the way my family does things. I have not been able to figure out if this is a cultural thing or if it's unique to our family. I forget what all I've mentioned here. I grew up in a horse and buggy Mennonite community with its own distinct culture.

I don't think he considered it inappropriate; who would consider his own behaviour inappropriate??? I've seen him once before and he didn't talk like this. His method was okay until he pushed it beyond a certain point. My guess is if I had no history of serious abuse I would have known how to handle the case and to indicate my boundaries. I know it's late in life to start over but better late than never.



If they were only annoying I could live with it. But when people judge my thoughts and feelings and rebuke me for having them--that violates my innermost being. As I think about it, it amazes me to find corners of this inner sanctuary that my mother did not invade but I do have them. I did have thoughts and feelings she did not know about.



I don't want to be "brought along." I am quite happy to discuss religious belief objectively--both my own and others--in a safe environment where no judging, belittling, or scorn or mockery of any form takes place. But to be made to feel obligated to accept their view of things or to give an account for refusing--that crosses illegitimate boundaries. I think that is what this man was doing, though it was so subtle I did not consciously pick up on it.

I don't want to reopen wounds that are healing from your experience with the eye doctor, but I felt I ought to speak beacuse I know where tht eye doctor is coming from. So I hope you will bear with me.

Quite frankly, I was a bit like that eye doctor, having been raised up in a fundamental Baptist church. Now I don't know your eye doctor personally, but I can speak for the mindset of a typical fundy Baptist, and maybe you'll see similarities.

First off, though, I respect you desire for being objective and the fact that you don't want to be preached to and "brought along". And I respect your situation and understand why you might have reacted in this situation.

But for what it's worth, I think most Baptists have a decent heart. And i think they aren't all out to be judgemental, at least not trying to be, though it may appear that way. If you understand the reason why some push hard to get someone to listen to the "message" perhaps you will see that they really do it out of compassion, though in many eyes it is misguided.

The basic premise of the Baptist message is that we live in a lost world. The sin that had infiltrated the human heart is also the thing that will condemn. Baptist's take the message of salvation seiously because they see the dire consequences of the penalty of sin, which they believe is eternal separation fron God in a place of literal burning called Hell. And it is nobody's desire to see anyone end up in such a terrible place. So naturally, the motivation is to warn people of this place.

Baptists do not teach that joining the church, being baptized, or any other work will gain entrance into Heaven, based on verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. Salvation is by faith in Christ and the work He did one the cross and confirmed by His Resurrection. So every one who comes to God, comes on the same terms--sinners who need salvation. Baptists view themselves as sinners, too, only they made a decision for Christ and by faith believe He has saved them from Hell. Now when they go out knocking on doors or try to open people up to religious matters, their motivation is to see the other person get saved. They believe by telling other about Christ, they are showing love, and they are loving God by telling others about salvation.

OK, Ruby, you are turned off by that approach. Especially if they seem judgemental. I don't think they are being personally judgemental, at least I hope not, they shouldn't. But they are in a general sense for they believe all are sinners needing the grace of God. And in the best way they know how, they are spreading the Gospel that they have been taught.

And might I also add, telling others about Christ isn't the easiest thing in the world for some people. There is that fear of being ridiculed or rejected or laughed out or riled by atheists and so forth. Doors get slammed in their faces. People will cuss at them. I had one athiest lady tell me that my wife and a young girl who went with us were dogs because they were Filipino and how dare I bring them to her door. Truned out she was upset because her son got married to a Mexican, though she used the word "beaner".

Anyway, I just wanted to shed some light on the other side of the door. If you were offended, well, it wasn't because that eye doctor didn't care. He just felt he was doing the work of the Lord and trying to pull people into the Kingdom of God. Maybe he pushed it farther than he ought to have. But then Jesus didn't compromise his message just to be nice, either. Believe it or not, He loved the Pharisee's as much as the woman at the well, but took different approaches toward each of them. Maybe it's just a matter of discerning what our approach ought to be. All is a learning experience.

 

[Dondi]

I really, really wanted to understand God or Spirit. It was a most lovely sunshiny day in spring when everything is vibrant green and the sky is as blue as it gets. As I looked out from our front door to the green pasture it hit me that in the sunshine there is Spirit. Somehow, in the connection of green pasture, blue sky, and clear sunshine I knew there was spirit.

This almost sounds Native American. Have you ever explored their traditions?

 

[InLove]

Hi, Peace--

Just thought for the sake of future reference that wil has started another thread that might take this conversation even further. It can be found here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/fun-da-mentalist-what-is-5564.html

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

Here's a story that affects the way I view what I consider to be "fundamentalists" for better and for worse.

As you may know, I used to think of myself as a "Bible-thumping" Evangelical, "Born-Again" Christian. I believed there was only one right way to express the answers to the great questions about the meaning of life, "who am I?" and "what should I do?" I went through a crisis of conscience because this way of approaching life suddenly began feeling inauthentic and empty to me. So I started investigating questions about where these "fundamental" ideas about Christianity came from and wasn't satisfied that anybody had the answers. So I walked away from "Christianity" of the fundametal sort entirely, though I would come back to a fresh and much more meaningful understanding (for me anyway) years later.

Though I was raised "loosely" Catholic, part of the process by which I came to see myself as an Evangelical fundamentalist is that my sisters (four of them) preceeded me in their "born-again" conversion experiences. They have all taken different paths from that now, but there's one person in the family who hasn't - my sister's husband Pete. Pete is sure I'm going to Hell, especially because I knew "the Truth" and let Satan take it away from me. How do I know this? Because he has specifically and repeatedly told me so.

So back to the story. Pete and my sister, and their two boys, came to stay with me and my wife and our kids about a year ago. Pete, as always, insisted on engaging me in a discussion about his ideas of "the Truth." I was a little more assertive during that conversation that I no longer believed in the literal truth of the stories from Chrisitianity and explained how I found this was much more natural for me and made me much happier than I was when I thought there was only one, literal answer. This was a private conversation between he and I.

On the last day of their visit, Pete invited both families (me, my sister, my wife and the four kids) to gather for a short prayer. The prayer started with a thanks to God for our time together and a request for a safe trip home for Pete and his family. The rest of it (about ten minutes) was Pete asking God to take the demonic lies out of me so that I could once again see the truth of the "Gospel of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"TM This was in front of my wife, my five-year old daughter, my son and my sister.

Now . . . does that excuse the feelings of anger that well up in me in the face of someone claiming they know the only "truth"? No. But nevertheless, those feelings are there whether I want them or not. When I talk about "fundamentalism" and "creeds," part of what those words mean to me includes the feelings I had at the end of Pete's "prayer." And when those feelings arise, I can't help but think of the millions of people over the years who have been tortured and murdered, or watched a parent or child tortured or murdered, left homeless, and stripped of their dignity because someone thought they had the righteousness of being the one with "the Truth."

 

[InLove]

Hi Again--Peace,

Oh, man, Abogado! I might have walked away, as well. There is truly nothing that angers me more (and anger does not come easy to me) than when I see or hear accounts of what is, in my belief, the abuse of the name of Christ. And I know that it happens all the time. I am glad that you have been able to come to terms with the experience and travel on to a more peaceful Spirit.

I think that, in regard to certain aspects of the discussion here, I am going to go ahead and jump on over to the new thread. Some of what has been said on this one will necessarily follow me there, most likely. But for the sake of the original idea expressed here, this is probably best.

Before I do that, however, I just wanted to clear up one little, tiny tidbit that is bothering me a little. Dondi--what a significant attempt toward the cause of understanding you have made on your post regarding Baptists. I would just like to add that, from what I have experienced (and it is plenty) in more than one community of Baptists, not all of them define "Hell" as a "literal, eternal, burning lake of fire". But those who do not see it that way do describe it as "eternal separation from God". I know this may sound like nit-picking, but it is not my intent, at least here, to turn it into a major topic. I just felt that it was a point that might merit clarification. Anyway, I do thank you for your heartfelt and meaningful words.

Well, I had better jump over as planned, at least in certain matters.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[JosephM]

Hi Abagado,

Same story here... different characters.
Was raised Catholic also. Left religion and came to non-denominational born again experience at age 32. Received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and became a Bible thumping eveangilist. Had same change here over the years and then published a book detailing more progressive views and then received same treatment from my close friend who thinks I am off on a 'bunny trail' and could not have possibly ever known Christ in the first place. He is of course praying for my salvation so I don't end up in Hell.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[wil]

I think these explanations of folks travels in spirit speak volumes.

While you were in any one thought...how strong was that thought?

Were you praying for others to see the light?

Were you gladly worshipping, singing praises, and quoting chapter and verse?

Did you participate in witnessing, prosyletizing, mission work, recruiting others?

It is so glorious that we find our path....and when we choose a new path to realize those that we meet at the crossroads are on a path that we once traveled, and it served us well...or it may be a path that we ourselves or one of our friends or family may be traveling soon...and rejoice in that.

I've been prayed for, to save my sinful soul, by many a caring loving person, and it is the intention, not the intention of the person...but the intention of source...that is what matters to me. So I no longer care.

Like a erectile dysfunction ad on television, or the curse words or bad choices in a PG-13 movie....it becomes an entry point for me to discuss this with my kids. When I invite someone in who is headed door to door and we have a discussion, and those folks say one thing or another....when they leave my kids and I have a discussion....the questions fly faster than I can keep up. These distractions are an advantage....as if I were to bring the subject up, it wouldn't be of interest, it wouldn't be poigniant, it wouldn't have the punch of reality.

We will soon be having an interfaith retreat for our middle school kids, with representatives from Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and Native American faiths.... I can't wait to go through the experience with them.

Tis an awful shame I'm attempting to raise kids to be tolerant, open to others beliefs, and without the threat of hell or being able to blame the devil....I need all the prayers I can get!

Thank you G-d!

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

Hi Abagado,

Same story here... different characters.
Was raised Catholic also. Left religion and came to non-denominational born again experience at age 32. Received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and became a Bible thumping eveangilist. Had same change here over the years and then published a book detailing more progressive views and then received same treatment from my close friend who thinks I am off on a 'bunny trail' and could not have possibly ever known Christ in the first place. He is of course praying for my salvation so I don't end up in Hell.

Love in Christ,
JM

In the case of "Pete" it's particularly complex because he is about 12 years older than I am and looked up to him as a source of wisdom as a newly converted 16-year old Evangelical Christian. I once thought of him as my "older brother in the Lord." Of course, I know why he thinks what he thinks, but it's still an unpleasant experience.

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

While you were in any one thought...how strong was that thought?

Not sure I understand what you are asking here. Can you elaborate please?

Were you praying for others to see the light?

Most definitely.

Were you gladly worshipping, singing praises, and quoting chapter and verse?

Yes. Though the "charismatic" experience never quite felt natural to me.

Did you participate in witnessing, prosyletizing, mission work, recruiting others?

Yes. I helped the youth pastor organize a monthly outreach of our congregation's youth group to the local homeless shelter. Three or four times a year I was asked to speak in front of congregations in various places in the Pacific Northwest as part of "lay witness missions," telling my conversion story - I guess presumably to inspire others in their faith, though I was 18 years old and didn't have much to tell.

I've been prayed for, to save my sinful soul, by many a caring loving person, and it is the intention, not the intention of the person...but the intention of source...that is what matters to me. So I no longer care.

When there's an element of meanness to it . . . I care.

 

[Dondi]

Before I do that, however, I just wanted to clear up one little, tiny tidbit that is bothering me a little. Dondi--what a significant attempt toward the cause of understanding you have made on your post regarding Baptists. I would just like to add that, from what I have experienced (and it is plenty) in more than one community of Baptists, not all of them define "Hell" as a "literal, eternal, burning lake of fire". But those who do not see it that way do describe it as "eternal separation from God". I know this may sound like nit-picking, but it is not my intent, at least here, to turn it into a major topic. I just felt that it was a point that might merit clarification. Anyway, I do thank you for your heartfelt and meaningful words.

I acknowledge the fact that not all Baptists are "hell, fire, and brimestone". But in most of the fundamental churches I've been familiar with, that is the thinking.

Personally, due to changes in my thinking over the last several years, if I share my faith, I emphasize the separation from the love of God, rather than eternal hell, as a consequence of sin. Fear tactics like hell might compel someone to pray the sinner's prayer, but they do so primarily for assurance of heaven, not to establish a meaningful relationship with God. I wonder how many have said the prayer only to fall away because that aspect wasn't stressed?

 

[RubySera_Martin]

I would just like to add that, from what I have experienced (and it is plenty) in more than one community of Baptists, not all of them define "Hell" as a "literal, eternal, burning lake of fire". But those who do not see it that way do describe it as "eternal separation from God". I know this may sound like nit-picking, but it is not my intent, at least here, to turn it into a major topic. I just felt that it was a point that might merit clarification.

Haven't quite caught up with reading this thread and will respond more later. Just want to thank you for this clarification. It's important for me to know that there is a difference.

 

[leastone]

Beloved in Christ,

I shall not attempt to answer the title of this thread, "What/Who is God?" I am moved to respond, however, after having just read the entire discussion. I'm just not sure what will will come out, but please bear with me.

We are taught a fundamental spiritual verity that what the heart is full of, that it will express, and from that abundance, there will be an overflow. It can hardly be stopped. This is how we are, and whether it be a post on a forum, or a testimony in a clinic, or in an interaction with proselytizing visitors, we can only speak what is on our minds, and depending on the emotional state, we may do so passionately, and even heighten one's feelings about it, as one gets carried away with enthusiasm with the issue. We are all subject and limited to self-expression.

We have to learn to discern God not only in the beautiful expressions of Nature, or the deep wisdoms of the teachings of Truth, or profound spiritual experiences in worship, or meditation, but in the everyday circumstances, people and events of our life. How could we possible exclude God from these? How can we exclude his Good and Truth for us in every situation?

His loving-kindness and divine providence provide whatever is necessary, whenever it is necessary, to ultimately change us from glory to glory, in an ever-increasing conformity to the likeness of the Holy One.

A baby has impatience from birth, and does not take long to make that impatience known, and, what is more, learn to skillfully employ it for his/her own needs satisfaction, even as a tool for manipulation. Nobody has to teach him/her how to be impatient "properly." What the child has to learn is patience.

Patience can only be learned, exercised, cultivated in impatient circumstances, with impatient people to tax whatever little patience one has already acquired. It cannot be learned otherwise, for it will only wax strong as it overcomes impatience, and has victory.

So, life (God) will present us with experiences with the right mix that is tailor-made to suit our growth needs; opportunities to exercise self-control, loving-kindness, patience, generosity, hospitality, forgiveness, peacefulness, or whatever we still fall short in. And these experiences will keep on presenting themselves 'til we get it right!

The offense taken at someone's perceived abuse when they are simply and sincerely expressing their faithful commitment to the same Lord we serve, to proclaim His Name, and give an account for the hope that is within them, may or may not be a fair evaluation of what they are doing. But along with the very same experience, in the presence of the very same Lord, is the opportunity to evaluate why one reacts the way one does. Especially when He said, "Blessed is he who is not offended in Me."

Pride is a terrible thing---it gets upset or angered so easily. It's so sensitive! And what it is especially good at is defining or constructing a God that suits its best interests; one that is created according to its own image and liking; one that it can control, and decide on when it can be considered present or not in any given situation.

Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ remains a valuable exercise in a life called to consider others higher than oneself; to show kindness and generosity to those who despite-fully use you; and to show love and concern for one's enemies. The true Christian needs God's grace every moment, in every encounter, in every situation.

Respectfully abiding in Him,

Learner.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

My approach to Liberal Christianity is not different than my approach to esotericism, or to esoteric Christianity. We each and every one of us feel and can acknowledge a separation from, or a lack of God ... in our lives. But we can also, each and every one of us, AFFIRM the Presence of God within us - once we get past the conditioning, as well as the limitations & barriers which life in the world just naturally places upon us.

I didn't see this earlier. Just found the quote in someone else's post. Andrew, I have an extremely serious problem when one person declares what "each and every one of us" do or don't do. My problem is that you don't know ME well enough to make that kind of statement about me.

Whole churches tend to be built upon and maintained by one person's idea that "each and every one of us" always does whatever. Then I am disciplined for "straying" because the church believes no one can be true to God in the way I am living my life. I am accused of sin when in fact I am being true to what I was born to be, my calling, my spirituality, my relationship with God.

I think it is more honest and more accurate to state what I experience, or that many/most people are this or that way. By specifying that it is "each and every one of us" I think people overstep their rights. The fact of the matter is that most times when people make these sweeping statements about "each and every one of us" they are wrong. You are probably more correct than many I've heard. I still think I have a right to ask to be excluded from such statements.

I guess that's nit-picking but then, where does truth end and falsehood begin???