identifying...Babylon the great

[kenod]

Re: Babylon the great

The scripture loses a lot of the meaning to me lumping all of the names into one. I will have to compile a list of arguments I guess. How do you explain the scripture I was pointing out where Jesus (pbuh) said that he was not glorifying himself? That he glorifies God (swt) the Father and the Father glorifies him?

It is not commonly believed among Christians today, but the way I understand the Scriptures, it was the Father living in Jesus Christ.

​

Isaiah 9:6
and his name shall be called … The mighty God, The everlasting Father
​

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:10
the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

​

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

The scripture loses a lot of the meaning to me lumping all of the names into one. I will have to compile a list of arguments I guess. How do you explain the scripture I was pointing out where Jesus (pbuh) said that he was not glorifying himself? That he glorifies God (swt) the Father and the Father glorifies him?

Ive said this before.. when God put on flesh He was putting on man and became lesser than The Father.. but He was still God just a bit lesser until His resurrection. Jesus brings glory to the Father and the Father shares His glory with Jesus... The Spirit points us directly towards Jesus.. Its a triangle.. they all work together for the Glory of God..

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

Is that what makes you think the soul or spirit is visible... because it can die? What is the soul and spirit then? Why two... dualism? Two parts of a Trinity? If you claim to know that most religions spread false doctrine... I would expect good answers from you.


quote]

The original-language terms (Heb., ne´phesh [​

נפ?]; Gr., psy·khe´ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show "soul" to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.​

The connotations that the English "soul" commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers.
What is the origin of the teaching that the human soul is invisible and immortal?
The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word "soul" stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

SPIRIT​

The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.​

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mah´ (Ge 2:7), also means "breath," but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru´ach. The Greek pno·e´ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mah´.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

SPIRIT​

The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.​

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mah´ (Ge 2:7), also means "breath," but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru´ach. The Greek pno·e´ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mah´.

Spirit = Pneu'ma (greek) KJV new testament greek lexicon

1. the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
   1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
   2. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
   3. never referred to as a depersonalised force
2. the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
   1. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
   2. the soul
3. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
   1. a life giving spirit
   2. a human soul that has left the body
   3. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
      1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
      2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
   1. the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
   1. of the wind, hence the wind itself
   2. breath of nostrils or mouth

Spirit = Ruwach the kjv old testament hebrew lexicon

1. wind, breath, mind, spirit
2. breath
3. wind
   1. of heaven
   2. quarter (of wind), side
   3. breath of air
   4. air, gas
   5. vain, empty thing
4. spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
   1. spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
   2. courage
   3. temper, anger
   4. impatience, patience
   5. spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
   6. disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
   7. prophetic spirit
5. spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
   1. as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
6. spirit (as seat of emotion)
   1. desire
   2. sorrow, trouble
7. spirit
   1. as seat or organ of mental acts
   2. rarely of the will
   3. as seat especially of moral character
8. Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
   1. as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
   2. as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
   3. imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
   4. as endowing men with various gifts
   5. as energy of life
   6. as manifest in the Shekinah glory
   7. never referred to as a depersonalised force

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

Spirit = Pneu'ma (greek) KJV new testament greek lexicon

yes ,its good to find out what the original words really meant. then we can have a more accurate understanding about what the bible is really saying . rather than relying on later manmade doctrines, but getting back to Babylon the great in the book of revelation ,she has many things in her that are like ancient Babylon.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

Oh yes mee I just made sure to post the entire definition and not just the ones I chose to..

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

False religion has been around for a long time. It has existed without a break since the days of bloodthirsty Nimrod, who opposed Jehovah and set men to building the Tower of Babel. When Jehovah confused the tongues of those rebels and scattered them over the earth, Babylon’s false religion traveled with them. (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:4-9)
Because of the long, long history of Babylon the Great, many people find it hard to believe that it will ever be destroyed.
"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: ‘Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.’" (Revelation 18:4) Prophecies of ancient Babylon’s fall in the Hebrew Scriptures also include Jehovah’s command to his people: "Take your flight out of the midst of Babylon." (Jeremiah 50:8, 13) Similarly, in view of the coming desolation of Babylon the Great, God’s people are now urged to escape. revelation 18;4 In 537 B.C.E. the opportunity to escape from litral Babylon caused much rejoicing on the part of faithful Israelites. In the same way, the release of God’s people from spiritual Babylonish captivity has led to rejoicing on their part. And since that time millions of others have obeyed the order to flee.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

False religion has been around for a long time. It has existed without a break since the days of bloodthirsty Nimrod, who opposed Jehovah and set men to building the Tower of Babel. When Jehovah confused the tongues of those rebels and scattered them over the earth, Babylon’s false religion traveled with them. (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:4-9)
Because of the long, long history of Babylon the Great, many people find it hard to believe that it will ever be destroyed.
"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: ‘Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.’" (Revelation 18:4) Prophecies of ancient Babylon’s fall in the Hebrew Scriptures also include Jehovah’s command to his people: "Take your flight out of the midst of Babylon." (Jeremiah 50:8, 13) Similarly, in view of the coming desolation of Babylon the Great, God’s people are now urged to escape. revelation 18;4 In 537 B.C.E. the opportunity to escape from litral Babylon caused much rejoicing on the part of faithful Israelites. In the same way, the release of God’s people from spiritual Babylonish captivity has led to rejoicing on their part. And since that time millions of others have obeyed the order to flee.

all Christianity is false pre-1852? interesting.. since Jesus Christ died over 2 thousand years ago. Your god must be lazy to take so long to establish himself. Have to give him credit.. he does have people willing to follow him.

 

[cyberpi]

Re: Babylon the great

Ive said this before.. when God put on flesh He was putting on man and became lesser than The Father.. but He was still God just a bit lesser until His resurrection. Jesus brings glory to the Father and the Father shares His glory with Jesus... The Spirit points us directly towards Jesus.. Its a triangle.. they all work together for the Glory of God..

So are you applying the word 'god' to a soul, or to a relationship between souls, or both? Does the Father have a soul? Does Jesus have a soul? Does a Holy Spirit have a soul? Is there any part that is independent between the three? Does the Father consist of more than one soul? Does Jesus consist of more than one soul? Does a Holy Spirit consist of more than one soul?

You understand Babel and how people were 'one' by communication. You experience marriage and see how people are part of 'one flesh'. I have too, but I realize that I still have a soul that is independent. I would say there can be a common will, but there can also be a difference in will. I would not say the relationship has a soul, but that two souls make the relationship together. Do you agree?

I do not know the nature of 'god' beyond what I read and experience. I'm obviously in the dark. So I see the word 'god' being used in different ways... both like a soul, and like a relationship. I read the words of Jesus (pbuh), and in no quote do I ever see him use the word 'god' like it were a relationship. He refers to his Father, and to our Father, and says that people are calling the Father 'god'... a living 'god'. The majority of what I read in the gospels is of a relationship he has with 'god', and a relationship that his followers are to have with 'god', and with each other.

John 8:40 But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth which I have heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

It is not commonly believed among Christians today, but the way I understand the Scriptures, it was the Father living in Jesus Christ.

Those were good verses and I have no doubt that I read them differently than the majority. I find that a lot of the scripture requires that Jesus (pbuh) has a soul too. It is unclear to me the entire nature of the communication except that it is clearly there.

If you think about it, people are inside each other's flesh. There is at least a neuron in my brain for each of the people I've read from here. I don't really own those neurons. I feed them with food and occasional exercise I guess, but I don't control everything that gets attached to them. If I did control them then I would be a complete liar to myself. Blind as it were... in fantasy land. I can starve them by ignoring them and take them away to concentrate on other things. But, I have also got at least a neuron in each of your minds too. Please feed my neurons with a good dinner tonight. Each of yours here are having steak... hopefully not tainted with prions.

...most religions spread false doctrine , they teach that the soul or spirit is some invisible part of a human that survives the death of the physical body. however the bible teaches a different doctrine. THE SOUL THAT IS SINNING IT ITSELF WILL DIE ezekiel18;4

So have you changed your mind? With John 4:24, "God is a spirit..." do you see God (swt) with your eyes? Is a soul visible with the eyes? Can anyone see the pneuma? Can anyone see the spirit? Can you see my soul? Can you see yours?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

So are you applying the word 'god' to a soul, or to a relationship between souls, or both? Does the Father have a soul? Does Jesus have a soul? Does a Holy Spirit have a soul? Is there any part that is independent between the three? Does the Father consist of more than one soul? Does Jesus consist of more than one soul? Does a Holy Spirit consist of more than one soul?

God is a spirit being.. we are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh..The Holy Spirit is a spirit being.. Jesus is a spirit being who put on flesh when He came to earth.

You understand Babel and how people were 'one' by communication. You experience marriage and see how people are part of 'one flesh'. I have too, but I realize that I still have a soul that is independent. I would say there can be a common will, but there can also be a difference in will. I would not say the relationship has a soul, but that two souls make the relationship together. Do you agree?

our souls or spirits communion with the Holy Spirit but our souls are seperate.. they communicate with each other...

I do not know the nature of 'god' beyond what I read and experience. I'm obviously in the dark. So I see the word 'god' being used in different ways... both like a soul, and like a relationship. I read the words of Jesus (pbuh), and in no quote do I ever see him use the word 'god' like it were a relationship. He refers to his Father, and to our Father, and says that people are calling the Father 'god'... a living 'god'. The majority of what I read in the gospels is of a relationship he has with 'god', and a relationship that his followers are to have with 'god', and with each other.

Jesus is God.. He calls the Father..Father...I dont know.. you tell me why but you are pretty much on the mark with how you sum it up.. its all about having a personal relationship with God.

I love John chapter 8 He stands up and tells those self righteous arrogant men that He is the great I AM... Im not sure why you posted that bit...?

John 8:40 But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth which I have heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. .

I

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

So are you applying the word 'god' to a soul, or to a relationship between souls, or both? Does the Father have a soul? Does Jesus have a soul? Does a Holy Spirit have a soul? Is there any part that is independent between the three? Does the Father consist of more than one soul? Does Jesus consist of more than one soul? Does a Holy Spirit consist of more than one soul?

You understand Babel and how people were 'one' by communication. You experience marriage and see how people are part of 'one flesh'. I have too, but I realize that I still have a soul that is independent. I would say there can be a common will, but there can also be a difference in will. I would not say the relationship has a soul, but that two souls make the relationship together. Do you agree?

I do not know the nature of 'god' beyond what I read and experience. I'm obviously in the dark. So I see the word 'god' being used in different ways... both like a soul, and like a relationship. I read the words of Jesus (pbuh), and in no quote do I ever see him use the word 'god' like it were a relationship. He refers to his Father, and to our Father, and says that people are calling the Father 'god'... a living 'god'. The majority of what I read in the gospels is of a relationship he has with 'god', and a relationship that his followers are to have with 'god', and with each other.

John 8:40 But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth which I have heard from God. Abraham did not do this.


Those were good verses and I have no doubt that I read them differently than the majority. I find that a lot of the scripture requires that Jesus (pbuh) has a soul too. It is unclear to me the entire nature of the communication except that it is clearly there.

If you think about it, people are inside each other's flesh. There is at least a neuron in my brain for each of the people I've read from here. I don't really own those neurons. I feed them with food and occasional exercise I guess, but I don't control everything that gets attached to them. If I did control them then I would be a complete liar to myself. Blind as it were... in fantasy land. I can starve them by ignoring them and take them away to concentrate on other things. But, I have also got at least a neuron in each of your minds too. Please feed my neurons with a good dinner tonight. Each of yours here are having steak... hopefully not tainted with prions.


So have you changed your mind? With John 4:24, "God is a spirit..." do you see God (swt) with your eyes? Is a soul visible with the eyes? Can anyone see the pneuma? Can anyone see the spirit? Can you see my soul? Can you see yours?

God is a spirit , and he is invisible, i am a soul and i can be seen, i do not possess a soul i am a soul.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

God is a spirit , and he is invisible, i am a soul and i can be seen, i do not possess a soul i am a soul.

Oh really?
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit (pneu'ma) does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

col 2:5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

Oh really?
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit (pneu'ma) does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

col 2:5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.

yes its amazing what happened to Jesus christ, who is Gods son, and Jesus christ does many things to direct his faithful people even though he is not here in the flesh. the active force of Gods spirit acomplishes great things

 

[mee]

Re: Babylon the great

God’s judging of Babylon the Great addresses another aspect of her guilt. The judgment states: "By your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled." (Revelation 18:23) Interestingly, "spiritistic practice" translates the Greek phar·ma·ki´a, which "primarily signified the use of medicine, drugs, spells; then, poisoning; then, sorcery."
W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Volume IV, pages 51-2.
In a spiritual sense, false religion has poisoned the nations, misleading them into believing in false gods and teachings that have diverted their attention from Jehovah and the issue of universal sovereignty. By its erroneous teaching of the immortality of the soul, false religion also laid the foundation for every kind of spiritism and sorcery, inspiring fear of the dead and worship of ancestors. God’s condemnation of Babylon the Great is totally justified. As John wrote: "Her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."—Revelation 18:5.

 

[aburaees]

Re: Babylon the great

Jesus is God.. He calls the Father..Father...I dont know.. you tell me why but you are pretty much on the mark with how you sum it up.. its all about having a personal relationship with God.

Yes he does, Mt6:9 "OUR Father in the heavens..."

I love John chapter 8 He stands up and tells those self righteous arrogant men that He is the great I AM... Im not sure why you posted that bit...?

Joh14:28 "the Father is greater than I AM"

 

[Faithfulservant]

Re: Babylon the great

Yes he does, Mt6:9 "OUR Father in the heavens..."



Joh14:28 "the Father is greater than I AM"

You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.


I wish people would take the bible as a whole rather than bits and pieces of verses out of context trying to prove a contradiction

What did Jesus mean when He said, "I and my Father are one."? The questioner has read into the Scripture that Jesus said He was equal to the Father in regards to their authority. Such is not the case. In the very text, Jesus declares that the Father "...is greater than all..." (10:29) Throughout His ministry, Jesus affirmed that the Father was greater than He. In John 5:19, Jesus states, "...I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Later in the same text, He says, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30).

How then are the Christ and the Father "one"? In John 17:11, Jesus prays for His disciples with these words, "...that they may be one, as we are one." Again, in the same chapter at verses 22-23, Jesus says, "...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one..." This same word, "one" is used in Galatians 2:28, where the apostle Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." How are they one? In nature. Just as Jews, Greeks, slaves, free, men and women are all one in nature --- Christian --- so the Father and Son are one in nature --- God. That does not mean they are equal in their exercise of authority. Some in the church were placed in positions of greater responsibility and authority (ie. apostles, prophets, elders, teachers), however, they are still "...one in Christ Jesus" with the rest. The Father is greater than the Son in authority, but they are equal in nature -- both are deity.

There is no contradiction.​

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Babylon the great

You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.


I wish people would take the bible as a whole rather than bits and pieces of verses out of context trying to prove a contradiction

What did Jesus mean when He said, "I and my Father are one."? The questioner has read into the Scripture that Jesus said He was equal to the Father in regards to their authority. Such is not the case. In the very text, Jesus declares that the Father "...is greater than all..." (10:29) Throughout His ministry, Jesus affirmed that the Father was greater than He. In John 5:19, Jesus states, "...I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Later in the same text, He says, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30).

How then are the Christ and the Father "one"? In John 17:11, Jesus prays for His disciples with these words, "...that they may be one, as we are one." Again, in the same chapter at verses 22-23, Jesus says, "...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one..." This same word, "one" is used in Galatians 2:28, where the apostle Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." How are they one? In nature. Just as Jews, Greeks, slaves, free, men and women are all one in nature --- Christian --- so the Father and Son are one in nature --- God. That does not mean they are equal in their exercise of authority. Some in the church were placed in positions of greater responsibility and authority (ie. apostles, prophets, elders, teachers), however, they are still "...one in Christ Jesus" with the rest. The Father is greater than the Son in authority, but they are equal in nature -- both are deity.​

There is no contradiction.​

Perhaps because Jesus "gave up" His divinity to "embrace" humanity for a time, thus lowering Himself in authority before the Father, during that time?

I mean, think about it. If Jesus were equal to the Father, as an human being, then Man would have achieved what Lucifer desired after and fell because of. And the "hypocracy" of God would have been revealed to all. An "human" would have been equal to God the Father...

After Jesus' death and ressurection, He was no longer merely corporial in being. He resumed His Divinity. He was reborn. And His manner of speaking changed as well. He was no longer subserviant to the Father, but equal. His relationship to His friends had changed as well.

I liken this change to a simple miliary analogy. When friends are all of similar rank (say first and second class Petty Officers), they pal around together after hours, maybe get mischevious and in trouble together, work as a team together sleep in the same staterooms together and squable with eachother as equals do.

But when one of them becomes a Chief Petty Officer, everything changes. The friendships remain, but authority is different. The roles between the Petty Officers and the Chief are now different. It has to be that way, for the good order and discipline of the service.

When Jesus came out of His tomb, He was no longer mere man, He wore His full divinity and authority.

my thoughts

v/r

Joshua

 

[aburaees]

Re: Babylon the great

I wish people would take the bible as a whole rather than bits and pieces of verses out of context trying to prove a contradiction

I might be Muslim but that doesn't mean that I'm out to prove a contradiction. Relax brother.

And what you said about 'context', I hear Mee wishing for the same thing...

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Babylon the great

I might be Muslim but that doesn't mean that I'm out to prove a contradiction. Relax brother.

And what you said about 'context', I hear Mee wishing for the same thing...

Hmmm, Mee's main reference isn't the bible...It is the Watch Tower tracts and doctrine. So even he doesn't follow what he "wishes" for...

v/r

Joshua