Things have Changed

[wil]

I know the question was asked of Cage....but as usual can't help myself. I belong fully one foot in each camp. There are no miracles, and it is all a miracle.

It is all a miracle, life is incredible suspension of planets held in orbits gravity holding our water, juice or wine in a glass so we can drink it, plants growing so we can eat them, think of that first white peach of the season, a fresh mango, slurping a watermelon....a sunset....birth...sex...what isn't a miracle?

There are no miracles, it is all part of the natural way things are. With enough focused thought (prayer, faith in the amount of a mustard seed) if we decide to align ourcellves with the universe (G-d) become one with the Father (all that is) that puts us in the world but not of it, provides us access to the ethers, the building blocks of all reality, and whatever it is: moving mountains; turning water into wine, all the normal things....everything I have done you can do and more...

 

[9Harmony]

Hi Thomas,

I respect your views, and would never try to argue my own against them. For the time being, I fail to see truth in a literal ressurection. I have my reasons, and others have their own for believing what they do. There are many things in the Bible I have a hard time with, Thomas, and I guess that's just part of my own personal journey.

In the end, I feel that Love is the driving force behind the Christian walk. Although, it was fear that gave me the desire to be saved. Obviously, I do not walk in perfect Love, as it is written: "Perfect Love casteth out fear"

I have much to work on in this department, but I don't think God, or Jesus will allow me to do all the work on my own. I may never come to believe in a literal ressurection, but in my mind, that will not/should not stand in the way of Jesus coming into my life.

I am touched by his teachings, his sacrifice, and his message. I desire to follow him, and I believe he will honor my desire for forgiveness. Even w/o fully believing in the literal ressurection.

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive. Why would he? He went through great pains to bring us life, and I truly believe he welcomes all who will accept his message of forgiveness, and Love.

I get discouraged when I am told I cannot recieve his gift w/o first adhering to a criteria of belief that contradicts the laws of nature. The very laws I believe God himself put in place.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Hi Cage,

Your understanding of the resurrection seems to be very much in line with the Baha'i understanding, but i don't want to derail this thread. So i invite you to explore this with the Baha'i's here in the Baha'i section if you would like.

i am leaving for vacation soon, so the other Baha'i's here I'm sure would be happy to discuss this with you in my absence.

Have a great day!

-Amy

 

[9Harmony]

I know the question was asked of Cage....but as usual can't help myself. I belong fully one foot in each camp. There are no miracles, and it is all a miracle.

It is all a miracle, life is incredible suspension of planets held in orbits gravity holding our water, juice or wine in a glass so we can drink it, plants growing so we can eat them, think of that first white peach of the season, a fresh mango, slurping a watermelon....a sunset....birth...sex...what isn't a miracle?

There are no miracles, it is all part of the natural way things are. With enough focused thought (prayer, faith in the amount of a mustard seed) if we decide to align ourcellves with the universe (G-d) become one with the Father (all that is) that puts us in the world but not of it, provides us access to the ethers, the building blocks of all reality, and whatever it is: moving mountains; turning water into wine, all the normal things....everything I have done you can do and more...

i couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Cage]

Time did not stand still while you were en absentia...I can assure you.

I know I'm going to have my ass royally kicked for this, but I suggest in your search, you take a look at the Liberal Christianity forum in the Spirituality and Belief forum. There is a method to my madness...

You can find it: http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/liberal-christianity.html

I think it will help you, in your search for what you really want and need, in the long run...

What I hope is for you to have ultimately, is a relationship with Christ, that is personal, and trusting, like I have with Him...

Godspeed.

v/r

Q

Hi Quahom1,

I spent a great deal of time in the liberal section after your suggestion, and the views presented seem much less rigid then what I am accustomed to. I'll be posting there a bit in the furure...Thank you.

Btw, that relationship thing you talked about is exactly what I want.

 

[Quahom1]

Sometimes personal experiences can be just as helpful as heaps of theology. If you are seeking the truth about the resurrection, I recommend you read the Bible and ask God to show you … and also do some gardening!

Every year I plant some Lachenalia bulbs (“little soldiers”) that I got from a dear friend who passed away. After they have finished flowering I pull up the bulbs and throw then into my shed where they lay all brown and scaly for another six months, looking completely dead. Come autumn I plant them out again and in spring they flower so gaily I just have to say “Praise the Lord, one day my dear friend will rise again”.




Like Job of old, I can say

For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:25-26




​

​

God speaks through nature ... we just need to listen.

​

To everything there is a season...even for "little soldiers"...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Quahom1,

I spent a great deal of time in the liberal section after your suggestion, and the views presented seem much less rigid then what I am accustomed to. I'll be posting there a bit in the furure...Thank you.

Btw, that relationship thing you talked about is exactly what I want.

First step is the hardest...after that, one learns to walk and then to run...

v/r

Q

 

[Cage]

Hi Cage -

Worry not. There was a time when I didn't see it. My namesake failed to see it also (the disciple Thomas has been likened to the reasoning intellect if we get into apostolic anthropology) - and he had less of an excuse than either of us! The point is, Jesus did not appear and say "After everything you have seen and heard? After everything I said to you? You are a complete ... "

No. he utilised Thomas - all those who appear in Scripture are called to a role greater than themselves (how can they not) and the destiny of humanity - of the Cosmos - turns on those moments - which is why Thomas was not there the first time Jesus appeared in the 'upper room' (and we could walk a long mile on that symbology) - did he not know that Thomas would be out? I very much doubt it.

So Thomas enables Jesus to say "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe".

And it allowed Thomas to say "My Lord, and my God!"

And if we allow Him, the Spirit will utilise us, despite our doubts and fears.

+++

What if I never see it? God must be doing something in me, though, as I have come a long way from where I was before. Many doubts have been erased, and I have come to actually want a relashionship with the master...not just a desire to follow him.

If I may put words in your mouth, people misread the 'fear of God' thing. We don't fear God, we fear not being loved by Him - and for many, very many, it is this fear of not being loved, this doubt, that keeps God at arm's length.

A failure to commit - through fear of rejection.

Although, I don't disagree with this, my fear consisted of nothing more than the fear of not beieng able to handle punishment, and the realization of how much I do need Jesus' saving grace.

Cage - Dare I say I don't think you don't believe ... I think you believe more than you know ... I think you believe more than you care to admit ... what you can't do is explain to yourself why you believe!

Welcome to the world of theology - as St Anselm defined it - 'faith seeking understanding.'

The Spirit is with you, even now.

+++

I guess I'm trying to decide how much I do believe, and trying to work out in my own mind 'why' I believe what I do. I can't say that I believe in a literal ressurection with all my heart, nor can I say that I deny it fully, either. Self realization is what I'm having trouble with, I think? I simply don't know exactly where I stand.

There is a difference between 'cannot' and 'will not' - Jesus never denies those who 'cannot' - that's what His healing miracles testify - only those who 'will not', and only because that is the just and merciful response to those who deny Him.

(The Spirit works with the 'cannot', gradually working it loose ...)

I'm willing, only I resist a bit because of my mind. I don't deny Jesus at all, I only resist some of the claims because I find them hard to believe.

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive.

Nor was it. The arms spread wide upon the cross embrace the whole world.

Yes, this it what I think also, but many Christians put salvation in a nicly wrapped box, and tell you that you can only get it, if you first meet some requirements. i.e believing in some things that, im my mind, defy nature.

Whoa there! Firstly, whilst your heart beats, there's the gift, and there are, I dare say, a multitude of other little gifts that we all pass unoticed each and every moment of the day ...

... secondly nothing in Scripture 'contradicts' the laws of nature - that's duality, that's opposition. What happens is nature is referred to its higher principle, and transcended...

(doesn't Quantum science apparently 'contradict' the laws of nature?)

Sure we have the gift of life, and for that I am thankful...

Why is duality a bad thing? It is, in my mind, a valid concept. Everything has an opposite, but the opposites are actually one and the same thing, varying only in degree of vibration. At least, this is what I read somewhere....Hermetic principle, perhaps? (polarity)

As for quantum science (physics) Is that the same? Well, I saw the movie "What The Bleep Do We Know". The most I took from that movie is the idea that the universe is intelligent. Other than that, I know very little about this field of study.

... people (not you) think, or rather never bother to think, that the Fathers, some among the greatest philosophers who ever lived, did not bother to question any of these things - the story of the first four centuries of Christianity is one huge Christological debate as they struggled to comprehend the meaning and implication of Revelation.

If I may wax Catholic for a moment, the adherence to doctrine, from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, is the refusal to reduce or rationalise the Mystery to make it fit within the bounds of human reason or man's preconception of 'what it must be like'.

If you want something to tussle with, take a look at:

http://www.theveil.net/veil/meta/bor/gnos_3.html

which begins: "If there is, in fact, a resurrection of the flesh, this is because the divine principle, which is immanent to the world in the very substance of matter, cannot but, by virtue of Its own Transcendence, tear the physical body out of the cosmic order to which it clings to manifest the very transcendence of the flesh when it has been truly indwelt by the Spirit..."

enjoy!

I'm searching, Thomas. I haven't checked the link yet, but I will.

Thanks, and much Love,

 

[Cage]

Hi Cage,
I was wondering whether you believe miracles occurred in Jesus' ministry, and whether miracles occur today. If so, what is a miracle, and how does it occur?


Here's an interesting Scripture, quoting the words of Jesus as he spoke to a very skeptical audience

Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy,
Thy sins be forgiven thee;
or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:9




​

I'm not sure what I believe to tell the truth. I'm working on it, though...

 

[Cage]

Hi Cage,

Your understanding of the resurrection seems to be very much in line with the Baha'i understanding, but i don't want to derail this thread. So i invite you to explore this with the Baha'i's here in the Baha'i section if you would like.

i am leaving for vacation soon, so the other Baha'i's here I'm sure would be happy to discuss this with you in my absence.

Have a great day!

-Amy

Thanks, Amy,

I'll certainly check it out.

Much Love,

 

[Cage]

I know the question was asked of Cage....but as usual can't help myself. I belong fully one foot in each camp. There are no miracles, and it is all a miracle.

It is all a miracle, life is incredible suspension of planets held in orbits gravity holding our water, juice or wine in a glass so we can drink it, plants growing so we can eat them, think of that first white peach of the season, a fresh mango, slurping a watermelon....a sunset....birth...sex...what isn't a miracle?

There are no miracles, it is all part of the natural way things are. With enough focused thought (prayer, faith in the amount of a mustard seed) if we decide to align ourcellves with the universe (G-d) become one with the Father (all that is) that puts us in the world but not of it, provides us access to the ethers, the building blocks of all reality, and whatever it is: moving mountains; turning water into wine, all the normal things....everything I have done you can do and more...

I like the way you think.

 

[Cage]

First step is the hardest...after that, one learns to walk and then to run...

v/r

Q

And what would that first step be? I feel like I've taken a thousand first steps, lol!

 

[Quahom1]

I like the way you think.

Heh heh. Will is talking about that relationship with God, instead of fear of God.

The term "fear of God", is the same as "awe". If you ever had a relationship of awe, for an uncle or father, or father figure...that is what is meant, only infinity fold.

Me, I would do anything for my biological father. If he even whispered at a need, I'd be there in a New York second. Not that he needs anything, but the chance to give back to him, is all the excuse I'd need.

And despite my father's human nature, I hold him in "fear", or "awe". How much more so to "fear" or "Awe" God...to want to give back what we can (which is Love).

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

And what would that first step be? I feel like I've taken a thousand first steps, lol!

Funny you should ask that...

What I did (when I was ready), was say simply "There but for the Grace of God, go I...here am I, God. Now what?" And then I listened and observed (actually it is a daily thing). I also talk to God, every day (usually on the way to work and the way home, as it is an hour and a half each trip).

After awhile, of my talking, things happen to make me realize He is answering me (I am the widow who won't leave the judge alone, I suppose) lol

The awareness and sensitivity is the first hint. "Did you just answer me, God?" I'll wait to confirm...

anyway that is how I do it.

v/r

Q

p.s. if anyone asks you why you are talking to yourself in the car. You pick up your cell phone and simply smile and say, "hands free".

edit: oooh boy I keep thinking about what I do, but like using "Bowflex" machine, one has to start with a little and work their way up to scale for their weight and muscle potential.

I pray for others. I just pick one. I think about what they need, and talk to God about them. I give my reasons, I ask for protection for them, I simply carry on a conversation with God. Cage, I do it every day. I get my tea at the local 7-Eleven, then head to work and talk to God as if He were sitting shotgun...(and to me He is.) Some times I'm not happy and I bitch about someone, other times, it is a petition to God to help them. Sometimes I ask for help when I need it.

Like I said, I make God personal in my life, by engaging Him in conversation, and holding expectation.

 

[flowperson]

I'm not sure what I believe to tell the truth. I'm working on it, though...

Hi Cage :

You'll find lots of company here for your journey. I've been doing one step and day at a time for lots of years, and while somethings are more clear to me now, I know that there are still more questions than answers. But there is a refreshing source of grace and knowledge here in the way that intelligent questions are posed, and then aired and discussed by the very wise people from around the world who are here.

welcome...peace...flow....

 

[seattlegal]

Anyway, I've come to realize that I need to accept Jesus' sacrifice. I've come to realize that I cannot handle the consequences my sins entail.

Before, I simply tried to follow in Jesus' footsteps, but now want to know him as my Lord, and Savior. Recent developments have forced me to reconsider my previous stance...that I could/should pay for my own sins.

The line following the Lord's prayer might be of particular interest to you:
Matt 6:14-15 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

The truth is that I'm not strong enough to handle the burdens of my past. I thought I was strong enough, but after facing some real world trouble, I've realized the error of my thinking. I still think it is unfair for Jesus to pay for my sins, but I also know that I cannot handle my own.

Hey, if you've learned your lesson, and changed your ways, you've made progress. Forgiveness is now the key.

And what would that first step be? I feel like I've taken a thousand first steps, lol!

Forgiveness and healing.

1 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7 And he arose and departed to his house.
8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

Once you understand the power of repentance and forgiveness, you won't be paralyzed by your perceived lack of faith. Regarding your burden of sins, hey, you made your bed, and you must carry it, just like the paralyzed man who was healed. Forgiveness and repentance makes the burden light, however, and your past sins become the lessons you have learned in your repentance.

 

[Cage]

Hi Cage :

You'll find lots of company here for your journey. I've been doing one step and day at a time for lots of years, and while somethings are more clear to me now, I know that there are still more questions than answers. But there is a refreshing source of grace and knowledge here in the way that intelligent questions are posed, and then aired and discussed by the very wise people from around the world who are here.

welcome...peace...flow....

This is becoming more and evident, flow. I feel lucky to have found a group so willing to encourage, guide, and accept me where I am.

Much Love,

 

[Cage]

Funny you should ask that...

What I did (when I was ready), was say simply "There but for the Grace of God, go I...here am I, God. Now what?" And then I listened and observed (actually it is a daily thing). I also talk to God, every day (usually on the way to work and the way home, as it is an hour and a half each trip).

After awhile, of my talking, things happen to make me realize He is answering me (I am the widow who won't leave the judge alone, I suppose) lol

The awareness and sensitivity is the first hint. "Did you just answer me, God?" I'll wait to confirm...

anyway that is how I do it.

v/r

Q

p.s. if anyone asks you why you are talking to yourself in the car. You pick up your cell phone and simply smile and say, "hands free".

edit: oooh boy I keep thinking about what I do, but like using "Bowflex" machine, one has to start with a little and work their way up to scale for their weight and muscle potential.

I pray for others. I just pick one. I think about what they need, and talk to God about them. I give my reasons, I ask for protection for them, I simply carry on a conversation with God. Cage, I do it every day. I get my tea at the local 7-Eleven, then head to work and talk to God as if He were sitting shotgun...(and to me He is.) Some times I'm not happy and I bitch about someone, other times, it is a petition to God to help them. Sometimes I ask for help when I need it.

Like I said, I make God personal in my life, by engaging Him in conversation, and holding expectation.

It starts with simple converstaion? I can certainly do that. I think the hard part will be the listening/hearing. I don't know if I'll be able to recognize his guidence.

Btw, I dig that bowflex analogy. Why would it work any other way?

 

[Cage]

The line following the Lord's prayer might be of particular interest to you:
Matt 6:14-15 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."


Hey, if you've learned your lesson, and changed your ways, you've made progress. Forgiveness is now the key.


Forgiveness and healing.

Once you understand the power of repentance and forgiveness, you won't be paralyzed by your perceived lack of faith. Regarding your burden of sins, hey, you made your bed, and you must carry it, just like the paralyzed man who was healed. Forgiveness and repentance makes the burden light, however, and your past sins become the lessons you have learned in your repentance.

seattlegal, your post just made my night. Thank you!

Much Love,

 

[seattlegal]

seattlegal, your post just made my night. Thank you!

Much Love,

I'm glad it was helpful for you, Cage.
Much love.

 

[Quahom1]

I have posted here before, but with a completely different mindset. In my previous visit to this forum, I was concerned with the ethics of salvation, and then to 'why' blood sacrifice was demanded.

I've re-read the threads, and I am amazed at how much I have changed since my last visit.

Anyway, I've come to realize that I need to accept Jesus' sacrifice. I've come to realize that I cannot handle the consequences my sins entail.

Before, I simply tried to follow in Jesus' footsteps, but now want to know him as my Lord, and Savior. Recent developments have forced me to reconsider my previous stance...that I could/should pay for my own sins.

The truth is that I'm not strong enough to handle the burdens of my past. I thought I was strong enough, but after facing some real world trouble, I've realized the error of my thinking. I still think it is unfair for Jesus to pay for my sins, but I also know that I cannot handle my own.

I'm also not sure if I completely believe in the ressurection, and I have been told that in order to be saved, and granted the guidence of the Holy Spirit, I must believe in this.

What are your thought?

Is is possible to be saved, and given the Holy Spirit w/o being convicted in heart that a literal ressurection actually happened? Look, I can accept that Jesus' spirit was re-awakened somehow, but his body after 3 days of decay is another story.

Anxious to hear what you have to say...

Much Love,

I had to read your post again Cage. And again and again and again. Why? Because something was just hiding under the surface that I couldn't quite gather into foment.

I see that you have "burdens" you can't carry by yourself. Before, you seem to have figured you could carry your own "knapsack" of issues, while you "followed" Jesus' foot steps (followed behind Him as He made the path for you). So, I must conclude that your "burdens" in your "knapsack" that you carry while you try to follow God (Jesus') footsteps, has been slowing you down, due to the heaviness? And I conclude that your "knapsack" recently got a whole lot heavier, yet you haven't had time to adjust, grow accustomed to, or just plain realize you can't carry it any longer.

So, you look up and "damn, Jesus is gone!" And you got a bit shaken up...? (I'd use more colorful words describing the feeling, but this is a family forum)

Plus, you still have doubts about salvation, so of course Jesus isn't going to give you a hand, or guidance, or do anything but leave you with your burden (because you don't quite fit the "mold" of a saved Christian) and perhaps for a moment you looked ahead and there were no more "foot prints" ahead of you...does that about sum it up? There are no more foot prints ahead of you, but the ones behind you now look twice as deep as they once were...

Dude, Jesus isn't gone, just look behind you. Who do you think is holding most of the weight of that "knapsack"? Who is holding you up?

He isn't asking anything of you right now, but to Trust Him. In fact, He offers you a trade on the path there. He'll take your "knapsack" if you will take His, for His is so much lighter. The you BOTH can move forward together, at an easier pace.

He doesn't care what the details you perceive of His beating death. He simply asks that you believe He did, and that He can help you. You don't have to change your heart...He'll take care of that in both of yours' good time. This is a personal relationship with Jesus you are entering in, which means Jesus will reveal to you what you need, when you need it, as long as you are willing. But He forces nothing on anyone, ever. And no one else can dictate how that relationship is supposed to develop.

There is no cookie cutter pattern that brings a man closer to God (follow 1-14 and voila you are with God).

Your last question (original) "Is it possible to be saved"? The rest was a set of self detractors and exception clauses, hence not significant to the original point of the question...and the answer is Yes. As you are, where you are, right this instant.

You say, "Jesus, take me as I am, doubts and all." Jesus says, "Wouldn't have it any other way." (with a beaming grin). Then get ready for the ride of your life...

God Speed.

v/r

Q