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seattlegal said:
Religious practice is an act of intimacy {between the person and God.} The State has no business there, IMHO. {That would be like the State ordering a person to work as a prostitute!}:mad:

I agree, but the argument is persuasive: Should a person be refused any service such as medical or dental treatment because they are gay ... of course not!

So, when a church regularly performs weddings for a variety of people, including those who are not members of its congregation, why should it refuse the same service to a gay couple, especially if the church has historical or scenic qualities that attract people to use it?
 
kenod said:
I agree, but the argument is persuasive: Should a person be refused any service such as medical or dental treatment because they are gay ... of course not!

So, when a church regularly performs weddings for a variety of people, including those who are not members of its congregation, why should it refuse the same service to a gay couple, especially if the church has historical or scenic qualities that attract people to use it?
Getting married is not like medical or dental treatment! If a church has no tradition, ritual, or other religious means of lending spiritual support to a specific situation, what do you want them to do? Are you going to compel them to make something up that they have no traditional basis for?
 
kenod said:
So, when a church regularly performs weddings for a variety of people, including those who are not members of its congregation, why should it refuse the same service to a gay couple, especially if the church has historical or scenic qualities that attract people to use it?
Here's a more relevant question: Would a gay couple want to get married in a church that does not want them? Would a gay couple want to get married by a priest or minister who is performing the ceremony under duress and actually feels that both of them are going to hell?

I may not be a Christian, but I certainly wouldn't want to be married under such conditions.
 
kenod said:
Everyone has the right to lobby the government to bring about policy change - there is the business lobby, the union lobby, the environmental lobby, the gay lobby ... so why not a Christian lobby.

The rights of minorities are extremely well protected in Western countries. Most of the laws that limit the rights of minorities are there to protect the vulnerable, and to prevent exploitation of public resources.

The business lobby, the union lobby, the environmental lobby, and the gay lobby, all of these examples are of non-exclusionary groupings. You can be whatever ethnicity and yet be a businessman/woman, belong to a union, care about the environment, or have whatever sexual inclinations. Further, a person can belong to many of these groups at the same time without conflict.

Being Christian, Jewish or Hindu is ethnic and you cannot be one and the other. Further, society can and tends to pressure minority ethnicities in order to capitulate to the majority ethnicity. This is human nature and cannot be alleviated except by the power of law.

It is also quite obvious that the majority Christian population would elect a majority of Christian representatives, who would in turn appoint a majority of Christian officials from among the majority Christian population. It is thus futile to allow religious lobbying. As for Christians, they are already well represented in government and enjoy what many say is the tyranny of the majority. As for other religions, if we allow religious lobbying, then we are extending an opportunity for legitimacy and influence to the minority religion—something no one in the leadership would agree with. Thus we have no direct religious lobbying in the American system.

As for other minority rights, criminal rights are well protected now, in the sense that you are not allowed to kill a black person for sports anymore. However, if you happen to do that, then we’ll send to jail for a couple of years (only if you get caught, of course). On the other hand, a black person would be fried for killing a white person. This is the actual practice in real life. You (assuming you are white) and I do not see it because we are white and enjoy the privileges of the white majority: so to us is it good. You need to look at the US, and the West, from the point of view of a minority (from all kinds, racial, religious, ethnic, you name it) in order to know how unjust it is.
 
I just read this thread. Katherine Harris is a certifiable nut, and I wouldn't read too much into any of her desperate ramblings. The GOP has told her it won't support her because she can't win. Smack!

Chris
 
kenod said:
The law being proposed is that a minister cannot refuse to marry a couple SOLELY on the grounds of their gender, just as I cannot refuse to employ anyone SOLELY on his/her declared sexual preference.

There is no basis for comparison as you make it. An employer selects his/her employees based on merit, and the employee has to fulfill the employer’s qualifications for the job in order to be accepted. You cannot go to a doctor’s office and ask for a job as a doctor while you are a mechanical engineer, even if you have a Ph.D. in engineering. Why, because you do not qualify for the internal requirements for that job.

Similarly, individually or as a society, we can say that same sex couples can form legally accepted unions, but you have no right to force the church, the synagogue, or whatever to change their own internal requirements for a union between a man and a woman in order to join the same sex couples. If same sex couples want to marry they can do that in a civil court, or they can form their own religion. The same is true of anyone who disagrees with any of the fundamental rules of any religion: if you do not like what it teaches then find or establish another one, but don’t ask them all to change.

Otherwise, how about this as a proposition: I want the church to accept me as a Christian and baptize me but modify their dogma to accommodate my belief that Jesus did not exist. This would be utter nonsense, right?
 
The Lord said:
The business lobby, the union lobby, the environmental lobby, and the gay lobby, all of these examples are of non-exclusionary groupings. You can be whatever ethnicity and yet be a businessman/woman, belong to a union, care about the environment, or have whatever sexual inclinations. Further, a person can belong to many of these groups at the same time without conflict.

Being Christian, Jewish or Hindu is ethnic and you cannot be one and the other. Further, society can and tends to pressure minority ethnicities in order to capitulate to the majority ethnicity. This is human nature and cannot be alleviated except by the power of law.

It is also quite obvious that the majority Christian population would elect a majority of Christian representatives, who would in turn appoint a majority of Christian officials from among the majority Christian population. It is thus futile to allow religious lobbying. As for Christians, they are already well represented in government and enjoy what many say is the tyranny of the majority. As for other religions, if we allow religious lobbying, then we are extending an opportunity for legitimacy and influence to the minority religion—something no one in the leadership would agree with. Thus we have no direct religious lobbying in the American system.

As for other minority rights, criminal rights are well protected now, in the sense that you are not allowed to kill a black person for sports anymore. However, if you happen to do that, then we’ll send to jail for a couple of years (only if you get caught, of course). On the other hand, a black person would be fried for killing a white person. This is the actual practice in real life. You (assuming you are white) and I do not see it because we are white and enjoy the privileges of the white majority: so to us is it good. You need to look at the US, and the West, from the point of view of a minority (from all kinds, racial, religious, ethnic, you name it) in order to know how unjust it is.

I presume you have recent evidence to back up this rather strong series of statements and overall disgust for the western side of civilization...?
 
Quahom1 said:
I presume you have recent evidence to back up this rather strong series of statements and overall disgust for the western side of civilization...?

Define western.
 
the lord said:
Thus we have no direct religious lobbying in the American system.

There's no Jewish lobby, right?

I am using "lobbying" in a very general sense - more as it operates in this country where electors have more direct and personal access to their representatives.

Tne religious right is more powerful in your country than here, as well. In our last federal election, a Christian party had one member elected to the upper house. In a crucial vote on the rights of refugees, he held the balance of power because the numbers were split down the middle (there is no veto here). Thankfully, this Christian man voted according to his conscience, and the full legal rights of uninvited refugees have been retained.

We are facing many moral dilemmas at the present time - just today I heard it suggested that an egg from an animal may be injected with a human cell for the purposes of harvesting the stem cells.

As a parent as well as a Christian, I support the push to legislate Christian values ... and yes, impose them on the whole of society! Of course there are limits to which that should be taken, and I believe that needs to be fought out issue by issue.
 
The Lord said:
Define western.


Several Definitions of the Western world ██ Developed countries of North America, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand, always considered Western ██ Developed countries in east asia and Oceania, sometimes considered western ██ Latin America, settled by European countries (Spain and others) which have ties to European culture. ██ Eastern Europe, Russia, Caucasus Region and European ex-Soviet states, excluding Baltics ██ Other states sometimes considered western ██ Not usually considered western
 
Societal values are not derived from some objective truth - they are manipulated and directed by groups within society, such as the news media, the entertainment media, and educational institutions, which for the most part, are not sympathetic to Christian values.

We are all subjected to values that do not reflect our personal position:
- allocation of government resources (welfare payments, arts grants etc)
- legal and illegal drugs
- age of consent
- school curriculum
- censorship
- military conflict

As a citizen and a parent, I believe I have the right to try to influence the legislative process to produce outcomes that are consistent with my opinions. If my opinions are based on my religious beliefs, should that disqualify me from participating in the process?

I think that is the point Katherine Harris was trying to make.
 
Trying to overturn the principle of separation of church and state, or just encouraging Christians to get involved in the political process - see Katherine Harris's interview in full, and judge for yourself:

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/6298.article

At least read the answer to the question that sparked the church-state comment:

What role do you think people of faith should play in politics and government?
 
making high moral and ethical decisions that would please the lord. although we have to serve a broad range of people, a christian character that does not lie, cheat, and steal, and loves his fellow man goes a long way.
 
kenod said:
Trying to overturn the principle of separation of church and state, or just encouraging Christians to get involved in the political process - see Katherine Harris's interview in full, and judge for yourself:

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/6298.article

At least read the answer to the question that sparked the church-state comment:

What role do you think people of faith should play in politics and government?

A role similar to the one that Joseph played in Egypt...;)
 
I know some folks have probably said this in other ways but I'm just gonna throw my stuff out here....

the US is a republic (I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands....) and we are working on our Democratic values to keep down the possibility of revolts from the indentured servants - who are anyone that is not running the government. When the founding fathers sought to constitutionalize a federal government, they were thinking of themselves and those like them - those who were male, white, landowning, and Christian. Whatever we make this out to try to be in the meantime is fine - you know, whatever is gonna keep the possibility of revolts down to a minimum. The laws are following the Christian way of thinking. To run a government you have to develop a popular culture to keep everyone in like mind. There is no separation of church and state. You cannot truly conquer a people without infiltrating the belief system. In fact, for those who are truly involved in politics, the state is the church. And then maybe churches would have to pay taxes on the land like everybody else.
 
kenod said:
What role do you think people of faith should play in politics and government?

I think people of faith should play a very local role in government or an enlisted military role in government or the nation of people should be a really small and very peaceful government - one that need not necessarily be governed. If we are talking about a government such as the US, it would cease to be what it is if one of faith should run it.
 
truthseeker said:
I know some folks have probably said this in other ways but I'm just gonna throw my stuff out here....

the US is a republic (I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands....) and we are working on our Democratic values to keep down the possibility of revolts from the indentured servants - who are anyone that is not running the government. When the founding fathers sought to constitutionalize a federal government, they were thinking of themselves and those like them - those who were male, white, landowning, and Christian. Whatever we make this out to try to be in the meantime is fine - you know, whatever is gonna keep the possibility of revolts down to a minimum. The laws are following the Christian way of thinking. To run a government you have to develop a popular culture to keep everyone in like mind. There is no separation of church and state. You cannot truly conquer a people without infiltrating the belief system. In fact, for those who are truly involved in politics, the state is the church. And then maybe churches would have to pay taxes on the land like everybody else.

Have you read the "Federalist Papers"? What you opine above is in direct contrast to the personal thoughts of the founding fathers.

When asked by the people "What kind of government do we have?" Benjamin Franklin simply stated, "A Federal Republic...If you can keep it."

Furthermore, this nation is a diverse and dynamic nation. The only like mindedness that we may all agree on is being, American, and self governing.

v/r

Q
 
truthseeker said:
The laws are following the Christian way of thinking.

I can think of examples where that is correct, and examples where that is wrong.

The question implied by the initial post in this thread is to what extent Christians can try to impose their beliefs through legislation. It seems any other interest group can push their beliefs and opinions with as much zeal and conviction as they wish, but when a Christian, particularly a conservative Christian, tries to do it, they pull the old church-state thing.

You just have to look at how Katherine Harris was reported in most of the media ... taking comments out of context in an attempt to misrepresent and discredit her views.
 
kenod said:
a benign dictatorship ... one day, Q, one day :)

Eh, wrong answer. Joseph was second in command. From prisoner then slave, to prisoner again, to the Pharoh's right hand man, Joseph conferred with the common folk, took their advice to heart, advised the Pharoh, and literally saved Egypt from starving to death. His was not that of a benign dictatorship, but one of a "republic" of sorts.

His is the only signator in Egyption history, that is Hebrew.

Oh, and if you are referring to God in heaven as the "One day" thingy, read the book of Revelation (4: 4 - 5: 8 might be an eye opener).

v/r

Q
 
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