What's wrong with the Jewish God?

D

Dondi

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,615
Reaction score
10
Points
36
Location
Southern Maryland
As a Christian, I've talked to and debated with Muslims over my faith and understand that Muslim does not embrace the concept that Jesus is the Son of God or God in the flesh, nor is God a Trinity.

But the Jews worship One God (Deut. 6:4) and do not believe in Jesus as God either.

So I'm a bit confused. Can you point out what contentions you have with believing in the Jewish God? Thank you.
 
Dondi said:
As a Christian, I've talked to and debated with Muslims over my faith and understand that Muslim does not embrace the concept that Jesus is the Son of God or God in the flesh, nor is God a Trinity.

But the Jews worship One God (Deut. 6:4) and do not believe in Jesus as God either.

So I'm a bit confused. Can you point out what contentions you have with believing in the Jewish God? Thank you.
Click to expand...


There is a Muslim viewpoint that the Jewish nation have attached too much importance to the traditions of men i.e. laws/customs taught by Rabbis but not necessarily found in the Tanach. Muslims who see it this way would say that the Rabbis have been made into gods alongside God.

I don't know if this is relevant but in the Tanach (I forget where) God is said to have the heavens as his throne and the earth as his footstool... In Islam the footstool is above the heavens, and the throne is even higher again. Seems like Muslims desired to make God even loftier than the Israelites did.

.
 
There is a Muslim viewpoint that the Jewish nation have attached too much importance to the traditions of men i.e. laws/customs taught by Rabbis but not necessarily found in the Tanach. Muslims who see it this way would say that the Rabbis have been made into gods alongside God.
Click to expand...
one might make the same accusation about those who treat muhammad as the "perfect man" whose every observance and action is to be scrupulously followed and preserved in the hadith. accusations of this nature against the jewish sages are, of course, generally based upon a lack of knowledge of the traditions involved and, indeed how judaism actually works.

I don't know if this is relevant but in the Tanach (I forget where) God is said to have the heavens as his throne and the earth as his footstool... In Islam the footstool is above the heavens, and the throne is even higher again. Seems like Muslims desired to make God even loftier than the Israelites did.
Click to expand...
if that is the case, it is rather a one-upmanship-ish waste of time, don't you think? you can't seriously take this kind of poetic language to indicate a literal theological position, because if you do, you're seriously misunderstanding the way judaism views G!D. even a cursory glance at the theosophical structures of the early "heichalot" literature ought to reveal this.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
one might make the same accusation about those who treat muhammad as the "perfect man" whose every observance and action is to be scrupulously followed and preserved in the hadith. accusations of this nature against the jewish sages are, of course, generally based upon a lack of knowledge of the traditions involved and, indeed how judaism actually works.


if that is the case, it is rather a one-upmanship-ish waste of time, don't you think? you can't seriously take this kind of poetic language to indicate a literal theological position, because if you do, you're seriously misunderstanding the way judaism views G!D. even a cursory glance at the theosophical structures of the early "heichalot" literature ought to reveal this.

b'shalom

bananabrain
Click to expand...

Fair comment, but like I said it is "a" Muslim viewpoint, not necessarily shared by ALL Muslims (including myself).
There is a general trend in Islam for people not to understand the functional distinction between a Prophet (Moses), a King (David), a Sage (Enoch), a Faithful Servant (Abraham), a Judge (Samson), and a Rabbi (Gamaliel).

As for your second point I tend to agree, but CAN you see how some groups WILL take it is a literal difference whilst others will see it for what it is... a poetic difference.

.
 
Bean Curd....Tofu
Garbonzo Beans.....Chick Peas
Elevator....Lift

G-d.....Allah

I accept that different perspectives, different languages, different societies, different locales have different names for the same thing.

Is there a difference?

The Imam that came to our church stated....of course it is the same G-d, if there were more than one, they'd be fighting...with a smile and laughter...
 
wil said:
Bean Curd....Tofu
Garbonzo Beans.....Chick Peas
Elevator....Lift
Click to expand...


Ha ha,
wil.
wil said:
G-d.....Allah

I accept that different perspectives, different languages, different societies, different locales have different names for the same thing.

Is there a difference?

The Imam that came to our church stated....of course it is the same G-d, if there were more than one, they'd be fighting...with a smile and laughter...
Click to expand...

Naw, it must be just His children fighting. :rolleyes:


But is there a difference? If not, then what's the problem?

Seriously, I'd like some definitive responses from our Muslim friends here.
 
Hi Dondi,

The Muslims have no contentions of the God of the Jews, for their God and the God of the Muslims is the same God. It is their religious teachings that we believe is corrupted to the extent where it renders the Jews rejectors of Gods true faith.

The Holy Quran makes clear that those who accept some of Gods Messengers and reject others, are the rejectors of faith, it also makes clear that those who reject Gods last revelation, the Holy Quran, are the rejectors of faith, thus the Jews are outside the folds of Gods true religion by rejecting the Prophet Jesus and Muhammed [PBUT] and rejecting Gods last and final revelation, the Holy Quran.

Here are some Quranic verses and hadiths in relation to the Jews, Christians, and all of Mankind:

"Lo! those who disbelieve [in Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammed] among the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians] and the idolators, will abide in the fire of Hell, they are the worst of created beings" [Quran, 98:6]

"O followers of the Book [Christians and Jews], you follow no good, till you keep up the Torah and the Injeel [Bible] AND THAT WHICH HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD [THE QURAN]; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will make many of them increase in inordinancy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people" [Quran, 5:68]

"Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers, and [those who] desire to make a distinction between Allah and His Messengers, and say, "we believe in some and disbelieve in others", and desire to take a course in between, such are disbelievers in Truth; and for disbelievers we prepare a shamefull doom" [Quran, 4: 150-152]

"And when there came to them a Book from Allah [the Holy Quran], verifying that which they have [the Torah and the Bible], and aforetime they used to pray for victory over those who disbelieved, and when there came to them that which they did not recognise, they disbelieved in him, so Allah's curse is on the kaafiroon [rejectors of faith]" [2:89]

On the authority of Adil Ibn Hatim [ra], it is reported that he heard the the Messenger of Allah [sm] reciting the verse:

"They [Jews and Christians] took their Rabbi's and their Priests to be their Lords besides Allah..." [Quran 9: 31]

"...and I said to him: "We dont worship them". He [the Messenger [sm]] said: "Do they not forbid what Allah has permitted you and do you not then forbid it [to yourselves]?, and do they not make permissable for you what Allah has forbidden and do you not then make it permissable [to yourselves]"?, I replied "certainly!". He [sm] said: "That is worshipping them" [Narrated by At-Tirmidhi who graded it as well-authentic [hasan]]

"Narrated Abu Hurairah [ra], Allah's Messenger [sm] said: "By Him in Whose hands Muhammed's [sm] soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and the Christians who hears about me, and then dies without believing in the Message which I have been sent [the Quran], but he will be from the dwellers of the Hell-Fire". [Sahih Muslim, Vol 1, hadith #240]

"And whoever seeks a religion other then Islam, it will not be accepted of him and in the hereafter, he will be one of the losers" [Quran 3:85]

"And none argue [that it's not the Truth] concerning the revelations of Allah [the Holy Quran...] except the disbelievers" [40:4]

"Verily Allah has cursed the disbelievers and has prepared for them a blazing fire, to dwell therein forever..." [Quran, 33:34]

Islam teaches that with the advent of the Prophet Muhammed [sm], all other previous divine religions have been abrogated and that all of mankind, who are to come untill the Last Day, are commanded by God, thus obligated, to follow the Prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him, and the message he was sent, the Holy Quran.

Hope this helps

Peace.
 
OK, I'll suppose for the moment that the God of the Jews and the God of Islam are the same.

First, I don't see how Jews are worshipping Rabbis. They recite Deut. 6:4 as a clear indication that they worship only one God:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:" - Deut. 6:4-6

Isn't loving God with all one's heart, soul, and might, in other words with one's whole being what God wants? And to go further that we should love our neighbor as ourselves?

Basically, the contention is that the Jews teachings do not line up with the Qu'ran. I would be interested to see what distinction you draw from the worship of God that is drawn from the Biblical scriptures I quoted above and what Islam teaches. Does Islam have something akin to the Ten Commandments? What moral compass do you follow?
 
Dondi said:
First, I don't see how Jews are worshipping Rabbis. They recite Deut. 6:4 as a clear indication that they worship only one God:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:" - Deut. 6:4-6
Click to expand...

Dondi, in Islam many things constitute an act of worship. Brushing your teeth, if done in a certain manner and with the correct supplications, can be seen as an act of worship. Having intercourse, if preceeded and finished with the correct supplications, can also be seen as an act of worship.

Following God's commandments constitutes an act of worship, we receive God's commandments through his appointed messengers, prophets e.t.c.

However, if someone brings a commandment which did not originate with God, following that commandment constitutes worshipping others besides God.

It is alleged by some Muslims that certain Rabbinical teachings are effectively commandments that did not originate with God - therefore following these teachings constitutes worshipping the Rabbis.

For example "don't boil a kid in it's mother's milk", would be taken by Muslims to mean exactly what it says, that you shouldn't boil a kid in it's mother's milk. But Rabbinical commentary would extend this prohibition to prohibit eating meat and dairy in the same meal - now unless the commentator was claiming divine revelation/inspiration in doing this, or coud actually attribute the commentary to a prophet, messenger e.t.c. the commentator would be seen (by some Muslims) to be setting himself up as a god besides God.

There are many people who profess monotheism in one part of their daily life, and then associate partners with God throughout the day. I suppose what Muslims would be interested in knowing is; On what authority to Rabbis extend or limit religious prohibitions - that is if they even do it in the first place.

From a Jewish point of view Jesus might have been seen as a heretical Rabbi, who basically prohibited divorce, and practiced healing on the Sabbath. I guess there are some Muslims who would see Jewish Rabbis in general in the same light that some Jews see Jesus.

I personally see that a lot of Muslim scholars have brought prohibitions into the religion, where there weren't any before. Like the prohibiting of television amongst certain groups, but saying on the other hand that the internet is permissible.:confused:

.
 
aburaees said:
Dondi, in Islam many things constitute an act of worship. Brushing your teeth, if done in a certain manner and with the correct supplications, can be seen as an act of worship. Having intercourse, if preceeded and finished with the correct supplications, can also be seen as an act of worship.
Click to expand...
This is true of Judaism as well. I was surprised to hear that having sex on Friday nights is a double-mitzvah. Regarding things as trivial as brushing teeth, the Talmud suggests one should say one hundred blessings a day. The typical interpretation of this is that the person should always be mindful of God and should therefore fill one's life with worship of his or her Creator.

aburaees said:
However, if someone brings a commandment which did not originate with God, following that commandment constitutes worshipping others besides God.

It is alleged by some Muslims that certain Rabbinical teachings are effectively commandments that did not originate with God - therefore following these teachings constitutes worshipping the Rabbis.
Click to expand...
What rabbinical teachings are commandments in and of themselves? Halakha (Jewish law) is not a set of commandments but rather a legal code. Is Sharia all based directly in the Qur'an or have Muslim sages also considered the text and extrapolated on its meaning to develop more rules and to decide specific disputes?

Similarly, Halakha comes from both the Written and Oral Torahs, it is not something the Rabbis just made up. Generally, Halakha is Midrashic in nature, that is, it is based on interpreting the text rather than things being explicitly stated.

Moreover, rabbis do not always have the same opinions on things and very frequently there are disputes. (In the Talmud, for example, often a law is stated and then five or six other rabbis offer alternative ideas.) While a certain set is generally accepted as halakha, dissent does exist and the dissenters are still Jews because one cannot deny the Jewishness of another based on an interpretation and application of Torah.

aburaees said:
From a Jewish point of view Jesus might have been seen as a heretical Rabbi, who basically prohibited divorce, and practiced healing on the Sabbath. I guess there are some Muslims who would see Jewish Rabbis in general in the same light that some Jews see Jesus.
Click to expand...
Heretical rabbi, probably not. He was a Galilean, a group of people who while Jews were forcefully convereted only a generation before. They were nationalists, but not religious (like the early secular Zionists, actually). It's reasonable to believe that, like many other Galileans of the time, he strongly supported his people but did so in ways that were very different from Jewish history and tradition due simply to lack of knowledge thereof. (The information would not have been imparted by his parents because they likely didn't know it themselves).

A similar parallel (from about the same time, too) is Philo of Alexandria and other Hellenised Jews, introducing Greek ideas into the Jewish people.
 
Karimarie said:
What rabbinical teachings are commandments in and of themselves?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't know, perhaps the Muslims who actually make the allegations might have some examples to offer.

Karimarie said:
Halakha (Jewish law) is not a set of commandments but rather a legal code.
Click to expand...

In Islam a legal code is supposed to have divine approval, and as such wouldn't be treated differently from a commandment.

Karimarie said:
Is Sharia all based directly in the Qur'an or have Muslim sages also considered the text and extrapolated on its meaning to develop more rules and to decide specific disputes?
Click to expand...

In Islam Sharia is supposed to be traceable back to the Qur'an and the authentic sayings of the Prophet (and to the family of the Prophet as far as Shias are concerned). If anything wasn't clear on its own or clarified by the Prophet himself, it must not have been important enough to be a legal issue. We're told not to dwell on things which appear to be unclear, as differing on these things can ultimately divide nations.

Karimarie said:
Similarly, Halakha comes from both the Written and Oral Torahs, it is not something the Rabbis just made up. Generally, Halakha is Midrashic in nature, that is, it is based on interpreting the text rather than things being explicitly stated.
Click to expand...

From a Muslim point of view it would be difficult to prove that the Oral Torah had divine authority. How do you know that it is the same now as it was say three thoudsand years ago? The integrity of Scripture is easier to measure, I would imagine.

Karimarie said:
Moreover, rabbis do not always have the same opinions on things and very frequently there are disputes. (In the Talmud, for example, often a law is stated and then five or six other rabbis offer alternative ideas.) While a certain set is generally accepted as halakha, dissent does exist and the dissenters are still Jews because one cannot deny the Jewishness of another based on an interpretation and application of Torah.
Click to expand...

Same with Muslim scholars, but I would tend to disagree with reliance upon scholars.

.
 
aburaees said:
From a Muslim point of view it would be difficult to prove that the Oral Torah had divine authority. How do you know that it is the same now as it was say three thoudsand years ago? The integrity of Scripture is easier to measure, I would imagine.
Click to expand...

It's not the same now as it was three thousand years ago. This isn't a problem because halakha can and does change over time.

Halakha is a legal code, but it is also the traditions of the Jewish people (which is why Askenazi and Sephardi Halakha are both different!) I have serious doubts Sharia law has not changed over time either. Halakha does change over time... The Mishnaic sages didn't have the same concepts of Halakha that Rambam had when he wrote the Mishneh Torah.

Halakha, like the Midrash, is the work of man, taking Torah, developing its meaning and applying it. One needn't accept any particular view--He or she can choose the view he or she likes most.

aburaees said:
Same with Muslim scholars, but I would tend to disagree with reliance upon scholars.
Click to expand...

Well, there's a reason Jews are encouraged to engage in Torah study... The only difference between a rabbi and another Jew for purposes of Halakha is that the rabbi is more knowledgable due to having spent much more time and energy studying.
 
Karimarie said:
It's not the same now as it was three thousand years ago. This isn't a problem because halakha can and does change over time.

Halakha is a legal code, but it is also the traditions of the Jewish people (which is why Askenazi and Sephardi Halakha are both different!) I have serious doubts Sharia law has not changed over time either. Halakha does change over time... The Mishnaic sages didn't have the same concepts of Halakha that Rambam had when he wrote the Mishneh Torah.

Halakha, like the Midrash, is the work of man, taking Torah, developing its meaning and applying it. One needn't accept any particular view--He or she can choose the view he or she likes most.



Well, there's a reason Jews are encouraged to engage in Torah study... The only difference between a rabbi and another Jew for purposes of Halakha is that the rabbi is more knowledgable due to having spent much more time and energy studying.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with the way Judaism can apply itself and develop over time, and I appreciate the Judaism allows for change over the millenia.

In theory, this is the difference between Islam and Judaism, Islam isn't supposed to change over time. In theory Shariah law (when applied correctly) is the same now as it was when it was first "perfected" during the Prophet's lifetime. But I know that in practice Shariah law has changed very very much, so much so that there are different versions of Shariah law being applied today.

So when a Muslim challenges a Jew over the changes that have taken place in Judaism, in most cases it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

.
 
aburaees said:
However, if someone brings a commandment which did not originate with God, following that commandment constitutes worshipping others besides God.

It is alleged by some Muslims that certain Rabbinical teachings are effectively commandments that did not originate with God - therefore following these teachings constitutes worshipping the Rabbis.


In Islam a legal code is supposed to have divine approval, and as such wouldn't be treated differently from a commandment.
Click to expand...

Karimarie said:
Well, there's a reason Jews are encouraged to engage in Torah study... The only difference between a rabbi and another Jew for purposes of Halakha is that the rabbi is more knowledgable due to having spent much more time and energy studying.
Click to expand...

How can we determine which are the clear commandments of God? Suppose one doesn't follow rabbinical codes, but adheres to the Written Torah in his best understanding of it, apart from any kind of codes? The Written Torah hasn't changed.
 
Dondi,

rabbinical Judaism goes by the Talmud, which contains the Oral Torah, and rabbinical Judaism comprises almost all of Judaism today. There is a very tiny group, called the karaites, which formed that ignores the Talmud and tries to only go by the Torah. Their practices can vary a bit too, because the Torah isn't always clear on what to do. At other times it is clear that they have their own minhagim, their own customs, which they carry out that go beyond the words of the Torah.

Of course, I would dispute with you that the written Torah hasn't changed. It certainly hasn't changed since the masorites got to it, at least in the way it's written, but then again our understanding of it has changed based on the way we understand the world.

And in the sense that the Torah hasn't changed, we can say the same about the Talmud, after its compilation ended, besides for one point in history (after the invention of the printing press I believe) when there was a censorship that happened of some material.

How can we determine which are the clear commandments of God?
Click to expand...

It's not so much about what's a commandment and what's not as it is about how the commandment is understood and put into action. That's what the later texts do. These are the 613 mitzvot:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

And just in response to something earlier there are a few (although it's very very rare) mitzvot that come from the Oral Torah. One that comes to mind is the lighting of candles before shabbos. Strictly according to the Torah, nothing should even be burning on Shabbos. Then when we get to Nach, to the prophets and writings, Shabbos is already being reinterpreted as a much more joyous event. So when we get to the early rabbis, to hazal, they interpret the language as only meaning we shouldn't light fires on Shabbos. In order to enhance the joy, there is a commandment in the oral Torah to light candles before Shabbos, which, before electric lighting, would essentially allow people to see and celebrate into the night. So you can see the type of change that happened, and one that was actually started not with the rabbis, but in Nach.

Dauer
 
Dondi said:
As a Christian, I've talked to and debated with Muslims over my faith and understand that Muslim does not embrace the concept that Jesus is the Son of God or God in the flesh, nor is God a Trinity.
But the Jews worship One God (Deut. 6:4) and do not believe in Jesus as God either.
So I'm a bit confused. Can you point out what contentions you have with believing in the Jewish God? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Dondi! You are right that Jewish God and the Muslim God are one and the same. The apparent nomenclature does not matter much. The Zoroastrians are also monotheists as also the Sikhs. All the above believe in ONESNESS of God. The difference is not here; the difference is in the attributes of God of these religions.
If God is one and there is no doubt about that and God does have personal relationship with his pious and righteous men called Prophets or Messengers and He talked with them and sent his messages of love to mankind through them for guidance of them and let Himself known through them. Talking with his pious men for greater benefit of the human beings is a permanent attribute of God that cannot be changed. If one denies even one of His prophets who has been sent by God; this arrogant behavior of that person, tantamount to denying God and is not acceptable to God. Since all the attributes of God are interlinked; denial of one attribute results in denial of other attributes one by one. Say if God does not listen to prayers, then God is devoid of hearing. If He does not hear for a long time and does not speak to His pious men then probably He is dead for all practical purposes and God cannot be born as He cannot die. So on and so forth.
Sending his prophets is His permanent attribute. God sent Jesus according to this attribute of Him for guidance of the Jews. They did not accept him rather put him on Cross and rebuked his mother. This is neither acceptable to God nor to Muslims. Jews must accept truthful prophet-hood of Jesus. It is not a prerogative of Jews to accept or deny Jesus and punish him for being a messenger of God, if God sent him he has to be accepted. All Muslims therefore accept all the prophets of God including Jesus in whatever part of earth the prophet may be, past or present, dead or alive, he has to be accepted.
Similarly God sent Muhammad for guidance of the humans, it is not their choice to accept or refuse him. The Jews and Christians have to believe in his prophet-hood. It does not mean that whoever rejects him is to be killed or forcibly converted to Islam. That is against the clear verdict of Quran. Also this is only a difference of faith and not necessarily a cause of enmity. If one does not believe in God, if at all he will be punished by God, so if one does not believe in the prophet-hood of Jesus or Muhammad he cannot be punished by any human being, if at all mere non-acceptance of a prophet does not entail any punishment from men but from God. But the opponents of prophets, alas, never believed in the democratic norms and freedom of speech. They opposed the prophets chosen by God, tooth and nail, tried either to kill them or to expel them from their lands if they do not bow to their wishes and showed utmost animosity. This is what they did to Moses, Jonah, Jesus and Muhammad and they spared none. Thus they wrought wrath of God. Some hardened, stiff necked radical Muslim clergy may believe forcible conversion of the non-believers into the fold of Islam; just like the hardened, stiff necked and radical Jewish clergy of the time of Jesus but that is equally wrong. The same is the case of those Christians who opened the door of a holocaust against the Jews.
Present strife among the Jews, Christians and Muslims is more political and economic rather than religious. What the religion has to do with the political boundaries of the countries? Religion wins hearts and souls not the lands.
Wel this is the view of an Ahmadi a faith in Islam,others may differ with it.But truth and peace should prevail.
Salam and thanks
 
Ok. So, what is the fundamental difference between the teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed? If God is unchanging, wouldn't the message be the same for all His prophets?
 
God sent Jesus according to this attribute of Him for guidance of the Jews. They did not accept him rather put him on Cross and rebuked his mother. This is neither acceptable to God nor to Muslims. Jews must accept truthful prophet-hood of Jesus. It is not a prerogative of Jews to accept or deny Jesus and punish him for being a messenger of God, if God sent him he has to be accepted.
Click to expand...
excuse *me*, but i don't actually give a flying arse. jews don't have to accept jesus's prophethood, or messiahship, or anything other than him having existed at around that time. we are not obliged to agree that G!D sent him and, frankly, whether we were rude to his mother or not is neither here nor there. our relationship with G!D is not conditional upon our relationship with christianity, islam or their respective founders. we do not require rectification, confirmation, legitimisation or anything else from them, except that they leave us alone and STOP TRYING TO CONVERT US AND OUR CHILDREN. is there any part of this that is less than clear?

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top