What's wrong with the Jewish God?

[Karimarie]

God sent Jesus according to this attribute of Him for guidance of the Jews. They did not accept him rather put him on Cross and rebuked his mother.

The Romans recorded who they executed pretty thoroughly. There was never a person named "Yeshua". Moreover, the "Jews" that appear in the Christian scriptures typically are gross parody or satire of what Jews are and what their behaviours are as a group of people.

This is neither acceptable to God nor to Muslims. Jews must accept truthful prophet-hood of Jesus.

OK... Why?

It is not a prerogative of Jews to accept or deny Jesus and punish him for being a messenger of God, if God sent him he has to be accepted.

Therein lies a different question: Did God send him? Considering that he apparently advocated a number of Jewish and non-Jewish things, I'm inclined to believe the answer is no.

All Muslims therefore accept all the prophets of God including Jesus in whatever part of earth the prophet may be, past or present, dead or alive, he has to be accepted.

Not all 'prophets' can be accepted as legitimate. In principle, anyone can have a vision and claim to be a prophet. Many 'prophets' have aspired to this title, for example:

Aleister Crowley
The Oracle at Delphi
Joseph Smith
David Berg
Sun Myung Moon
Jehovah's Witnesses
Nostradamus
And many, many others...

The fact is, a person cannot be legitimately termed a 'prophet' based on his or her own testimony. Several people, claiming the title of 'prophet' argued to the Jews the Messiahship of one Shabbatai Tzvi... He ultimately converted to Islam and accomplished none of the Messianic prophecies. Are the 'prophets' actually worthy of that title? No, their prophecy was false, thus they were false prophets.

In the case of Jewish prophecies regarding the Messiah and his role in the world, acceptance thereof is based on faith in God and God's providence. They could have made it all up I suppose, but that is, indeed, a matter of faith to trust that it is valid.

Conversely, adding Jesus or Mohammed to the list of Prophets is simply a matter of faith without basis in any verifiable set of facts. Prooftexts are bupkis because they presume existing belief--That is, they are circular logic. Thus, the only way to determine a faith and qualify it for a particular person is to examine its teachings and decide whether or not they are rational.

The teachings of Christianity were and are not rational in the context of Jewish thought and thus were rejected. Conversely, Christian thought was mainly based on Greek and Roman thought, which explains why it seemed rational to those peoples. Islam was presented to be rational to Muslims, so it was adopted by them. Interpreting religions and their validity or lack thereof requires a relative amount of context. Without context, the religion's essential concepts are just slightly beyond the grasp of the learner's mind.

Thus, for Jesus to have been a legitimate prophet, his prophethood would have to have existed within the context of Jewish history, tradition and law. Perhaps it did... But Pauline Christianity didn't and thus was nonsense to the Jews, leading to most Jews not converting.

 

[Zaakir]

kaimarie, you said something about along the lines about the characteristics of jesus. lets say that what the jews were expecting from the messiah is true, when i was looking into judaism, and islam as my futre religion, i came across an amzing fact, the jews said their messiah would be a warrior and lead them to victory, and that people would return to their homeland (i think tehy used egypt in their prophecies) but anyway in islam we know and beleive jesus a.s will return and these qualities will be in him. he will lead the beleivers into victory, as a warrior.

also pauline christianity was nonsense, to me anyway, and did not come about till many many years after jesus ascended into the heavens

 

[Zaakir]

dondi, you said soemthing about god unchanging and messages from the messengers will not change, it hasnt, god brought to people always the message, there is no god but god. certain aspects of life were brought down at varying times, because god knows what is right. just as you might not have kids for years even though trying, god does what He does for a reason. also in christianity it seems taht your point can be taken sarcastic, becasue, the messege you have of jesus a.s is different form every other prophet. all the poepel before jesus therefore jews, as tehy called themselves, beleived in one god and one god only, never would they blaspheme Him by using partners, whereas christians beleiev jesus is god, so in this case the message has done a U turn

 

[bananabrain]

the jews said their messiah would be a warrior and lead them to victory, and that people would return to their homeland (i think they used egypt in their prophecies)

actually, zaakir, it's a bit more complicated than that. however, the homeland that we were always going to return to was the land of israel. any metaphorical use of "egypt" must depend on the context. it might refer to somewhere we had to leave, or somewhere we were enslaved or oppressed, or it might refer to egypt as a powerful enemy, usually in terms of what "pharaoh" might be described as doing.

jewish eschatology is notoriously complex, contradictory and controversial. it is very difficult to say much about it that is beyond debate.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Dondi]

dondi, you said soemthing about god unchanging and messages from the messengers will not change, it hasnt, god brought to people always the message, there is no god but god. certain aspects of life were brought down at varying times, because god knows what is right. just as you might not have kids for years even though trying, god does what He does for a reason. also in christianity it seems taht your point can be taken sarcastic, becasue, the messege you have of jesus a.s is different form every other prophet. all the poepel before jesus therefore jews, as tehy called themselves, beleived in one god and one god only, never would they blaspheme Him by using partners, whereas christians beleiev jesus is god, so in this case the message has done a U turn

What do you consider Jesus' message that differs from Moses?

 

[inhumility]

Ok. So, what is the fundamental difference between the teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed? If God is unchanging, wouldn't the message be the same for all His prophets?

I am an Ahmadi a faith in Islam, which is the centre of all Revealed Religions. I believe that all Revealed Religions were truthful in their origin but with the passage of time when humans forgot the pristine message from God, the message was revived by God. So in this way logically and morally there is no difference between a true Jew, a true Christian, and a true Muslim or with any other label.Fundamentally teachings of Moses,Jesus and Muhammad are the same with no difference altogether. Truth has to be respected and believed whatever its name.The message is the same for all prophets,right,to believe in One God and to follow prophet/s chosen by God, in short.
Thanks

 

[inhumility]

Did God send him (ie Jesus)?
Considering that he apparently advocated a number of Jewish and non-Jewish things, I'm inclined to believe the answer is no.
Not all 'prophets' can be accepted as legitimate. In principle, anyone can have a vision and claim to be a prophet. Many 'prophets' have aspired to this title, The fact is, a person cannot be legitimately termed a 'prophet' based on his or her own testimony. Are the 'prophets' actually worthy of that title?
Thus, for Jesus to have been a legitimate prophet, his prophethood would have to have existed within the context of Jewish history, tradition and law. Perhaps it did... But Pauline Christianity didn't and thus was nonsense to the Jews, leading to most Jews not converting.

Did God send him (i.e. Jesus)?
This is a valid question, true, which has to be researched truthfully, sincerely and God-fearing arguments given to prove that Jesus was a true prophet of God. In Old Testament God revealed several criteria to verify a true prophet. Yes, verification in principle would and should be made from the words spoken by God and revealed to Moses and not from the writings of the clever clergy who never received even a word from God and also it should not be judged from the manmade sources of Jewish history, tradition and law which could be interpreted ambiguously. God’s men must be judged by the word of God.
It is true that when Jesus disappeared from the scene of crucifixion, Paul self-appointed himself as his epistle and traded pristine teachings of Jesus with pagan Greco-Roman mythology but that is not Jesus’ fault. Jesus remains truthful prophet of God chosen by Him when verified from the principles as mentioned above. It is sinful not to believe Jesus as true prophet of God.
Thanks

 

[inhumility]

the jews said their messiah would be a warrior and lead them to victory, and that people would return to their homeland

The Jews who in the time of Moses refused to fight on his side with the enemy,later when they tasted the rule of David and Solomon ,when that liesure time was lost they dreamt that the Mosiach would return them their lost glory.This was their wishful thinking and not Word of God.Prophets of God are not chosen by God on wishful thinking of a people,they come for guidance and not to wage wars.This is a mistake of the Jews needs to be corrected.
Thanks

 

[bananabrain]

in this way logically and morally there is no difference between a true Jew, a true Christian, and a true Muslim or with any other label.

except that you appear to think that you have the right to define this truth for the rest of us.

God-fearing arguments given to prove that Jesus was a true prophet of God.In Old Testament God revealed several criteria to verify a true prophet.

but jesus does not meet these criteria - or at least we have no way to know if he did because we have no reliable reports of things he actually said and did apart from manifestly partisan sources.

This is a mistake of the Jews needs to be corrected.

i find it actually quite chilling that you think you are in a position to identify our "mistakes" that need "correcting". this is nothing but arrogant, self-aggrandising nonsense.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Zaakir]

thyanks inhumility, and what you said before where you mentioned your ahmadi...as a sunni muslim, i think the same, word changed, as i beleive was a test, and we were all given the glorious Quran as perfection, an the prophet s.a.w

 

[Dondi]

Did God send him (i.e. Jesus)?
This is a valid question, true, which has to be researched truthfully, sincerely and God-fearing arguments given to prove that Jesus was a true prophet of God. In Old Testament God revealed several criteria to verify a true prophet. Yes, verification in principle would and should be made from the words spoken by God and revealed to Moses and not from the writings of the clever clergy who never received even a word from God and also it should not be judged from the manmade sources of Jewish history, tradition and law which could be interpreted ambiguously. God’s men must be judged by the word of God.
It is true that when Jesus disappeared from the scene of crucifixion, Paul self-appointed himself as his epistle and traded pristine teachings of Jesus with pagan Greco-Roman mythology but that is not Jesus’ fault. Jesus remains truthful prophet of God chosen by Him when verified from the principles as mentioned above. It is sinful not to believe Jesus as true prophet of God.
Thanks

So would it be safe to go by only what the Gospels say conserning Jesus' life and teachings? And that it would be safe to eliminate that any teachings of Paul's interpretation concerning Christ's life and ministry? Would we find then find the true prophet in Jesus?

 

[Abdullah]

Peace Dondi,

It is only safe to go by what the Holy Quran and Hadith [sayings of the Prophet Muhammed [SM] says about Jesus [a.s], for the previous revelations of God have been distorted.

Peace.

 

[bananabrain]

abdullah,

so i, as a jew, should ignore my own tradition and religion and go by the Qur'an and hadith instead, that's what you're saying. right? because the "previous revelations" have been "distorted".

i say this to you in clear english:

the Torah has *not* been distorted by the jews.
if the Qur'an and hadith say it has, they are WRONG. i don't have to take muhammad's word, let alone bukhari or whoever, as true. my prophets are sufficient for me.

you have misunderstood your own religion if you think it requires me to believe that mine has been falsified.

"O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done." al-Qur'an 49:6

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Dondi]

Peace Dondi,

It is only safe to go by what the Holy Quran and Hadith [sayings of the Prophet Muhammed [SM] says about Jesus [a.s], for the previous revelations of God have been distorted.

Peace.

Abdullah,

The Old Testament and the New Testament has been demonstrated to have been preserved satifactorily. The Jewish scribes were tenacious to say the least in transcribing the Scriptures over the centuries. An explanation can be found here:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/torahaccuracy.htm

A comparision of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were dated 100-200 B.C, and the next oldest transcripts dated about 900 A.D. show very little textural differences. Jesus as a Prophet quoted essentially the same scriptures as what the Dead Sea Scrolls evidenced.

As far as the New Testament, the manuscript evidence shows overwhelming accuracy due to the amount of avaliable manuscripts compared to other ancient literature. Over 5600 copies of the NT are avalible and have been cross-checked for accuracy:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm

In light of this, I don't see how the OT and NT could be considered distorted.

 

[wil]

Seems to me the orginal question was asked and answered.

I'd like to say more...

but one I am not a moderator

two I am at fault often

three this is not my religous forum...and dancing here I must respect the house I am in...

 

[inhumility]

So would it be safe to go by only what the Gospels say conserning Jesus' life and teachings? And that it would be safe to eliminate that any teachings of Paul's interpretation concerning Christ's life and ministry? Would we find then find the true prophet in Jesus?

The basis of Paul’s teachings is only a vision, pretending of seeing Jesus in the vision and Jesus making Paul his successor, otherwise he himself admits on record being an enemy of the Jesus and his apostles and he never missed any chance of killing and hurting them if he could do that. The innocent sheep, while the shepherd was away were lead to believe the made up story of Paul, even to the extent to declare it a miracle of Jesus. I only say that the innocent sheep should stand at guard against the intents of Paul.
Leaving Paul’s teachings we are only more or less left with the Gospels. The Gospels do contain the life events of Jesus and sometimes or often the Word of God revealed on Jesus, or in fact Word from God’s mouth revealed on the heart of Jesus but spoken and conveyed to us by Jesus that should be given preference over the rest of writings of the Gospels. Our main thrust being on the Revelation of God or Word of God leaving aside the wisdom of the human mortals, we cannot ignore the fact that rest writings of the Gospels sometimes or often contain written accounts that are contradictory to each other and lack clarity and are ambiguous, before accepting these writings on their face value, these contradictions and ambiguities should be looked into and removed, among other things from later realities of history or sciences since come into light in our civilized era. These should not be covered under the false umbrella of the Gospels being written under inspiration. I believe as Jesus received express/explicit Word of God for our guidance; since he was a chosen one by God, he enjoyed like any other prophet, God’s hidden/implied also .So whatever he acted or spoke he was under implied inspiration from God. Inspiration of a person is dependent on his receiving revelation from God. Gospel writers, to my knowledge, never received even a word of revelation from God .We should also remember that as some researchers point out, and the inner evidence of the writings also suggest, that the writings of the gospels were written at a much later time. Some say that these were only attributed to their names for sanctity, and edited by the church under influence of Paul. I say caution should be observed, it does not harm and strengthens the true belief, though not the blind-faith. Nevertheless NT contains like OT does contain, guidance for us.
One of our members has quoted the following verse in his post and I end with it presently:-
"O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done." al-Qur'an 49:6

 

[bananabrain]

we cannot ignore the fact that rest writings of the Gospels sometimes or often contain written accounts that are contradictory to each other and lack clarity and are ambiguous, before accepting these writings on their face value, these contradictions and ambiguities should be looked into and removed, among other things from later realities of history or sciences since come into light in our civilized era. These should not be covered under the false umbrella of the Gospels being written under inspiration.

the trouble with this, inhumility, is that you could say *exactly* the same thing about the Qur'an. and don't tell me that the Qur'an is unambiguous, clear or un-self-contradictory, either, because i know that isn't the case.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[inhumility]

God has sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and to send Guides is a permanant attribute of God and He has appointed him as the Guided One or Imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah etc that was to come in the latter days. He is a successor of all true prophets of God, anywhere on earth; through him teachings of all prophets of God from One and truthful source have been revived. Name him Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moshiach, Jesus, Messiah, Imam Mahdi or any name according to your own race/religion/tradition that was to come and you are waiting for him in the latter-days or end of the times, that person is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appointed by God’s word/God’s mouth revealed on him and also as already prophesized by many a truthful prophets of different nations that have been fulfilled in him. Through peaceful means, dialogue, by convincing others with solid/irrefutable arguments and never through any coercion or compulsion or battle or war would this object be fulfilled as destined by God. One Man of God was destined to come, nobody can deny, who would promote unity among the religions as also would establish unity of Revealed Books of the world by true interpretations removing the contradictions, ambiguities and misunderstandings that have crept up in the Revealed Books of different religions or their followers with the passage of time. No book has been revealed on him by God and in that sense he is equidistant from them or since he has been appointed by God’s word/revelation on this office he is in center of the religions. This work is to be done according to set realities/rules described in those books/scriptures but hidden from the eyes of the people as yet. This is Ahmadia view a faith in Islam, others may believe as they like, no contention. Peace and love for everybody, no hatred whatsoever.
Thanks

 

[bananabrain]

says you. this is ridiculous.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Abdullah]

Hi Dondi,

There is evidence in the contradictory verses of the New-Testament, that it has been distorted, one example of that is, it says in the New Testament that, God made man in Gods image, and in another verse it says that God shouldn't be likened to anything in this creation.

As can be seen, these two verses are contradictory for in one verse, God is likened to the image of man and in another it says that God shouldn't be likened to ANYTHING in this world, or whats beneath it or above it.

This is just one example of a contradiction in the Bible and there are many others; google the words "Ahmed Deedat" to find out about more contradictions in the Bible.

And in the light of the Bible itself, the claim that the Torah has not been distorted cannot be maintained:

"How can you say, 'we are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us'?. But behold! the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". [Jeremiah. 8:8]

In the above verse, the Prophet Jeremiah scolded the Israelites that their corrupt scribes made the Law of the Lord [the Torah] into a lie by their 'lying pen' [that is the pen they used to change the verses].

check out 101 contradictions in the Torah in the following website:

skeptically.org/bible/id8.html -59k -

The Holy Quran does not support the claim that the previous Scriptures remain undistorted:

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God", to traffic with it for a miserable price, - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby" [Quran: 2:79]

Those in whose interest it is to do so, will obviously say that the old and new Testaments have been preserved in it's original form, withuot distortion, and they will concont a false history and 'evidence' to back up their claim, but it is on people to carry out proper scrutiny and research of their own and not just take their word for it.

Peace.