What's wrong with the Jewish God?

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi,

There is evidence in the contradictory verses of the New-Testament, that it has been distorted, one example of that is, it says in the New Testament that, God made man in Gods image, and in another verse it says that God shouldn't be likened to anything in this creation.

As can be seen, these two verses are contradictory for in one verse, God is likened to the image of man and in another it says that God shouldn't be likened to ANYTHING in this world, or whats beneath it or above it.

This is just one example of a contradiction in the Bible and there are many others; google the words "Ahmed Deedat" to find out about more contradictions in the Bible.

And in the light of the Bible itself, the claim that the Torah has not been distorted cannot be maintained:

"How can you say, 'we are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us'?. But behold! the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". [Jeremiah. 8:8]

In the above verse, the Prophet Jeremiah scolded the Israelites that their corrupt scribes made the Law of the Lord [the Torah] into a lie by their 'lying pen' [that is the pen they used to change the verses].

check out 101 contradictions in the Torah in the following website:

skeptically.org/bible/id8.html -59k -

The Holy Quran does not support the claim that the previous Scriptures remain undistorted:

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God", to traffic with it for a miserable price, - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby" [Quran: 2:79]

Those in whose interest it is to do so, will obviously say that the old and new Testaments have been preserved in it's original form, withuot distortion, and they will concont a false history and 'evidence' to back up their claim, but it is on people to carry out proper scrutiny and research of their own and not just take their word for it.

Peace.

It would be helpful if you would give referrences to both verses in question. I am familiar with the "God made man in His image" reference in Genesis, but I do noot know which verse your are referring to that your say is condradictory. I cannot properly comment unless I see the verse for myself. Could you post that verse please?

Many of these supposed "contradictions" have perfectly good explanations to them, taken in the proper context.

I can find equally disturbing contradictions with the Qu'ran as listed here, but I'm sure you can equally clear these up, too. No?

http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Contra/index.html

For example:

Do we worship the same God or not?

According to the 109th Surah of the Qur’an, Muhammad and the unbelievers did not worship the same Being:

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6 Pickthall




Passages claiming that group (a) worshipped the same God:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62 Shakir

Say (unto the People of the Scripture): Dispute ye with us concerning Allah when He is our Lord and your Lord? Ours are our works and yours your works. We look to Him alone. S. 2:139 Pickthall

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). S. 3:64

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46 Pickthall
​

So, do we worship the same God or not?



​

 

[cyberpi]

So, do we worship the same God or not?

There is only one to worship and Muhammad (pbuh) was his messenger, but his name was NOT Jesus (pbuh), nor 1/3 of it.

Surah 109 refers to people who disbelieve an unseen God (swt), and instead worship something physical like a statue of Zeus, Apollo, George Washington, or a prophet like Jesus (pbuh).

 

[Abdullah]

Hi Dondi,

Thanks for the reply.

Here is the verse of the Bible where it says that God shouldn't be likened to anything in creation or that people should not have an image of God:

"I am the Lord thy God...Though shall have no other Gods before Me. though shalt not make unto thee, any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water underneath the earth, though shall not bow down to them, or serve them"[THE FIRST COMMANDMENT, EXODUS -2-5]

And heres the verse that contradicts it:

"And God said "let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." [Genesis, 1: 26]

If man is to believe that God has the image and likeness of man, then how would he be able to not liken God with the image and likeness of man, which the first commandment forbids?

you can find 101 CLEAR contradictions of the Bible in the following website:

www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm -122k -

The contradictions in the Bible and the Torah are distinct contradictions that cannot be explained in a logical way; it is a bit like the concept of the trinity; however the Christians try and explain that the trinity is in accordance with monothiesm, from a logical and intellecutal point of view, it still remains
a clear contradiction.

there are no contradictions in the Holy Quran whatsoever. There are some 'percieved contradictions' that can be explained adequately and in a logical way when they are put into context with other verses and hadiths.

The verse you quoted refers to the idols that the Makkan and other Arabs of that region used to worship, and Muslims certainly didn't/dont worship what they used to worship and nor did they [the polythiest disbelievers] worship that which the Muslims worshipped [God Allmighty].

hope that helps

Peace.

 

[Dondi]

There is only one to worship and Muhammad (pbuh) was his messenger, but his name was NOT Jesus (pbuh), nor 1/3 of it.

Surah 109 refers to people who disbelieve an unseen God (swt), and instead worship something physical like a statue of Zeus, Apollo, George Washington, or a prophet like Jesus (pbuh).

But then my original OP question isn't about Jesus, but the Jewish God.

 

[The Lord]

I can find equally disturbing contradictions with the Qu'ran as listed here, but I'm sure you can equally clear these up, too. No?

For example:

Do we worship the same God or not?

You better use a better example than that, since your example does not have any contradtion. Verses 109:1-6 speak of "disbelievers," Kafiroun (deniers of God), who by definition do not believe in God.

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6 Pickthall
​

The other verses you quote as a contradition do not reference the Kafiroun at all, but the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who by definition do believe in God, but follow a different revealed religion, hence the term "People of the Book," and thus might have slight disagreement in matters of theology. But in the end, they all DO worship God.​

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62 Shakir

Say (unto the People of the Scripture): Dispute ye with us concerning Allah when He is our Lord and your Lord? Ours are our works and yours your works. We look to Him alone. S. 2:139 Pickthall

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). S. 3:64

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46 Pickthall
​

As you see from my highlights (I've changed yours) the key here is the people addressed by these verses. Of course your confusion might be simply thinking that Muslims consider "People of the Book" as "Kuffar," which is absolutely not true.

 

[bananabrain]

"How can you say, 'we are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us'?. But behold! the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". [Jeremiah. 8:8]

In the above verse, the Prophet Jeremiah scolded the Israelites that their corrupt scribes made the Law of the Lord [the Torah] into a lie by their 'lying pen' [that is the pen they used to change the verses].

and what is your evidence, abdullah, that jeremiah 8:8 refers to the text that we have now? surely it could just as easily be referring to other versions of the text? the point is that you can't be sure. i am, of course, aware of this verse as being cited as evidence of corruption of the Torah (see http://www.comparative-religion.com...lls-a-response-369.html?highlight="lying+pen" ) but there are many ways to understand this verse and the one you have picked is by no means the most reliable, though it may well be the most convenient for you.

The Holy Quran does not support the claim that the previous Scriptures remain undistorted:

but, as i have said before, the fact that the Qur'an says something doesn't make it evidence for me.

there are no contradictions in the Holy Quran whatsoever. There are some 'percieved contradictions' that can be explained adequately and in a logical way when they are put into context with other verses and hadiths.

so clearly there are contradictions in the Qur'an which have to be reconciled in a similar way that contradictions in other texts are reconciled.

The contradictions in the Bible and the Torah are distinct contradictions that cannot be explained in a logical way.

we have just as many "perceived contradictions that can be explained adequately and in a logical way when they are put into context with other verses and the Oral Law" for all the objections you point to above. you just don't happen to know what they are, mate. so you can't tell me that what goes for the Qur'an doesn't go for the Torah just as well when you have no idea about how Torah actually works. in fact, if you want any of them explained, come on over to the judaism board and just ask, mr clever-pants.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[inhumility]

Not all 'prophets' can be accepted as legitimate.

Sorry, my computer was out of order and I could not attend this post earlier.

Right, the prophets have to be according to the Criteria set by God in the Revealed Book. If the claimant is truthful in God’s eyes then that claimant has to be accepted by the people to whom he was sent. If people make false excuses in denying him, they would incur wrath of God, as the claimant has not come by his own, he has been sent by God. This also entails that the people should be polite to him as he is not a culprit to be judged by the people, in fact that truthful claimant is to judge them.

In principle, anyone can have a vision and claim to be a prophet. Many 'prophets' have aspired to this title, for example:
Aleister Crowley
The Oracle at Delphi
Joseph Smith
David Berg
Sun Myung Moon
Jehovah's Witnesses
Nostradamus
And many, many others...
The fact is, a person cannot be legitimately termed a 'prophet' based on his or her own testimony.

Right, merely by seeing a vision or two does not make one a prophet. In religious terminology the prophet is a person who has been
1. chosen by God through clear Revelation from God
2. guided by God, through frequent Revelations from God
3. for guidance of the people, for which he has a mandate from God that is why he is also called Messenger of God or the Guided One as he is provided guidance whenever needed.
I therefore, mention hereunder Criteria of a true prophet of God from the OT believed by both Jews, Christians and NT believed by Christians. Quran also has the similar view in this regard.
1. Deuteronomy 18:20
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
2. Jeremiah 14:14-16
14Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.
3. Deuteronomy 13:5
5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
4. Ezekiel 13:9-13
9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
10Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
11Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
12Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
13Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
5. There is mention of false prophets in Acts 5:36-37
36For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
These false prophets were not chosen by God so they got killed and their followers got scattered frustrated and disappointed. The first one was Theudas and other one was Judas of Galilee

If I have missed something, please suggest for addition or correction.

My point is that Jewish and Muslim God is One, the difference is in the attributes. To send Prophets or Messengers or Guided Ones is a permanent attribute of God.

The Jews should have accepted Jesus as a true prophet of God and Muhammad also, as they fit in the above Criteria and also Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Messiah/Moshiach or the Guided-One to come in the latter-days.

 

[Karimarie]

My point is that Jewish and Muslim God is One,

No one has claimed differently. I've never met a Jew that actually understands the ideas presented in Islam that denies that fact because it's so very obvious.

the difference is in the attributes.

'Attributes'? What 'attributes'?

To send Prophets or Messengers or Guided Ones is a permanent attribute of God.

And yet, you claim Mohammed was the Final Prophet, ie the Seal of the Prophets--Which is it? Was Mohammed the Final Prophet or is God still sending prophets today?

The Jews should have accepted Jesus as a true prophet of God

No, because by that logic Jews should accept Hillel I, Gamliel and Akiva as prophets too, as Jesus's philosophy was really nothing new in Jewish thought, having been developed almost entirely by his Pharisaic predecessors.

and Muhammad also,

Putting aside your religious reasons in demanding acceptance of Mohammed as a prophet, ie. your claim Islam is inherently superior to all other faiths, is there actually a reason you can cite?

I can cite the fact that Mohammed wasn't a Jew as valid evidence that he wasn't, what can you cite as evidence he was?

 

[bananabrain]

don't worry about muhammad and jesus, karimarie, because apparently we have someone far more important to accept, namely mirza ghulam ahmad, who is apparently the moshiach. although i might point out that the latter claim fails on similar objections to those we have to that of jesus' followers. at least nobody is claiming that muhammad was moshiach, because then we would have a serious problem, as opposed to this utter nonsense.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[inhumility]

'Attributes'? What 'attributes'?

As already written by me in an earlier post Muslims and Jews differ in the application of attributes of God. It is an attribute of God that he guides his people and has not left the humans to drift away from the truthful path. Like He has been sending Guided Ones previously i.e. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon etc, so this attribute of God is clearly manifest, I think in principle you would agree on that.

Putting aside your religious reasons in demanding acceptance of Mohammed as a prophet

Presently I have only described my views frankly on the issue; I am not demanding you to convert to Islam, if you have gathered that from my post, please correct it now.

In my response to your post I agreed with you that there are many claimants of prophet-hood and we cannot accept them just for their claims; we can accept them if it is in principle correct to do so. I then narrated some of the Criteria as mentioned in Bible to which Quran also conforms. Presently I request you to please see if the Criteria is correct; and if not please mention the correct Criteria of knowing a true prophet from the untrue. That would be a true and principled stance for our meaningful discussion. Please don’t mind and remain firm on your faith, like I am.
Thanks for your polite response.

 

[The Lord]

Heretical rabbi, probably not. He was a Galilean, a group of people who while Jews were forcefully convereted only a generation before. They were nationalists, but not religious (like the early secular Zionists, actually). It's reasonable to believe that, like many other Galileans of the time, he strongly supported his people but did so in ways that were very different from Jewish history and tradition due simply to lack of knowledge thereof. (The information would not have been imparted by his parents because they likely didn't know it themselves).

This is very interesting. Could you please expand and clarify this explanation since it is different from the common version of the history as advanced by Christianity. Maybe you, or others, have done that before. If so, please point me to the location on this site or elsewhere. It might also be worth it to start a new thread with this topic. Thanks.