Was Gen 15:6 mistranslated?

[Quahom1]

Simply offering a different viewpoint does not necessarily imply a pedantic attitude but rather an opportunity for further discussion.

If you feel I have not responded to your points, please specify.

But it seems you have been entirely unresponsive to my point in which I showed the blatant contradiction between Gen 26:5 and Romans 4:13. That is an issue that cannot be ignored forever. But if you have an answer, I would like to hear it.

I see no contradiction. What I see is that:

1. Abraham obeyed God
2. It was because of Abraham's faith in God that he obeyed.

In Genesis we are told what Abraham did. In Romans we are told why Abraham did what he did.

It is quite frequent in the Old testament that God instructs without explaining why. In the New Testament we are frequently given explanations for the reasons God instructed man on issues, in the first place.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

It seems this Christian discussion of Genesis has been sent to the attic. Fortunately, this topic is being discussed in many other circles other than here. In the last days, knowledge shall be greatly increased.

It has been sent to the appropriate forum, as you are comparing your studies and conclusions with others' studies and conclusions.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

OK, but does the OT ever say that Abraham was motivated by faith or by fear?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Hebrews chapter 11 gives a whole list of famous biblical personalities and claims they were motivated by faith, but there is no confirmation of this in the OT nor are there marginal references that verify Hebrews 11 in the OT.

The "fear" is awe, and respect. Abraham trusted God, despite the external appearance of things. Trust is faith and hope.

v/r

Q

 

[Excaliburton]

I see no contradiction. What I see is that:

1. Abraham obeyed God
2. It was because of Abraham's faith in God that he obeyed.

In Genesis we are told what Abraham did. In Romans we are told why Abraham did what he did.

It is quite frequent in the Old testament that God instructs without explaining why. In the New Testament we are frequently given explanations for the reasons God instructed man on issues, in the first place.

v/r

Q

Paul said Abram received the promises not because he obeyed God but because he had faith.

Gen 26:5 says Abram receives the promises because he obeyed God.

Obedience is the intrinsic factor, not faith.

The condition of Abram's hearing also contributed to his obeying God, for he had to have ears to hear God's commands, but neither faith nor hearing are the intrinsic factors that causes the promises to be given.

BTW, faith is only mentioned twice in the OT, and the Hebrew word from which it is rendered, emunah, is not equivalent to the Greek NT word for faith pistis.

Another point is that if faith were the intrinsic cause of the promises, then works of obedience would not be necessary, "lest Abram should boast", as Paul was fond of saying.

Yet Gen 26:5 indicates the promises were given because of works of obediience.

 

[Quahom1]

Paul said Abram received the promises not because he obeyed God but because he had faith.

Gen 26:5 says Abram receives the promises because he obeyed God.

Obedience is the intrinsic factor, not faith.

The condition of Abram's hearing also contributed to his obeying God, for he had to have ears to hear God's commands, but neither faith nor hearing are the intrinsic factors that causes the promises to be given.

BTW, faith is only mentioned twice in the OT, and the Hebrew word from which it is rendered, emunah, is not equivalent to the Greek NT word for faith pistis.

Another point is that if faith were the intrinsic cause of the promises, then works of obedience would not be necessary, "lest Abram should boast", as Paul was fond of saying.

Yet Gen 26:5 indicates the promises were given because of works of obediience.

Obedience is not work. It is compliance with that or whom which we believe has the authority. To believe is to have faith.

The promises were given to one who obeyed because he believed in the authority of the One demanding the obedience.

Obeyance is nothing to boast about. It is a duty to be carried out, because it is the right thing to do.

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

But what is faith? The apostle Paul wrote: "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)
(Galatians 3:11) Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because "the righteous one will live by reason of faith."
"You behold that [Abraham’s] faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected."—JAMES 2:22.
faith backed up by complete obedience
Jehovah said that Abraham’s offspring, not Abraham himself, would receive the land as an inheritance. (Genesis 12:1, 2, 7) How did Abraham react? He was willing to serve Jehovah wherever and however God directed so that his offspring could receive their inheritance

 

[Dondi]

I have to agree with Q. Obedience is not a work. What Paul was speaking of was works of the law. Abraham came before the Law of Moses, therefore His obedience worked in conjunction with faith in God, as James indicated.

When the young rich ruler came to Jesus in Luke 18:18-29, and asked, "Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?", what did Jesus say? He basically asked if the young rich ruler kept the commandments, to which he replied that he had. Jesus didn't argue that he didn't keep the commandments, did He? But it wasn't enough, was it? Jesus told him he lacked one thing. Give up all he had to the poor and follow Jesus. Mere adherence to the commandments is not enough. There is something more to it, namely faith to trust God with everything you have.

Unfortunately, the rich young ruler went away sad for he couldn't give up the temporal things he had for eternal life. He lacked faith in God.

Furthermore, even if one is able to obey the commandments, if that were even possible, unless there is a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, then that person will not inherit eternal life anyway, for he is obeying God in his own strength and his own righteousness (see Isaiah 64:6). But it is the Spirit of God that will raise a person to life. Which is why Jesus said that we must be born again of the Spirit of God, that we might keep the commandments in love. That is the difference.

 

[wil]

I appreciate the move to comparative....look forward to seeing input from the other schools of thought that use Genesis..

 

[Excaliburton]

Obedience is not work. It is compliance with that or whom which we believe has the authority. To believe is to have faith.

The promises were given to one who obeyed because he believed in the authority of the One demanding the obedience.

Obeyance is nothing to boast about. It is a duty to be carried out, because it is the right thing to do.

v/r

Q

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is no verse in the OT that says
"The promises were given to one who obeyed because he believed in the authority of the One demanding the obedience."

Nor is there any verse in the OT that says:
"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

 

[Quahom1]

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There is no verse in the OT that says
"The promises were given to one who obeyed because he believed in the authority of the One demanding the obedience."

Nor is there any verse in the OT that says:
"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

And I'm not a puppet. I go beyond the "thou shalt", into the why "thou Shalt". It is called "contemplating" (my father in law calls it cogitating). It means to sit and consider why a situation occured the way it did. Really, you think man should sit there and simply carry out orders without ever wondering why? Sometimes knowing why, makes the carrying out of orders easier to do, even if it means there will be consequences that are not liked.

Why did Abraham keep God's laws? hmmm? Because he was a robot? Because he was afraid of God? I'm surprised he didn't wet his pants, let alone fail to move or speak before God...unless there was more of a relationship between Abraham and God, than we are aware of. First off, Abraham already knew God. A trust was established between the two. Time went on and then it came upon a moment where God needed to test that trust. Here is the kicker. God needed to know if man would give up all for Him. This would determine what God would do next. (remember, with man God introduced the element of uncertainty). Man was willing to give up all for God (thank Abraham for that), and God opined that He could do no less for man...so at the right moment, enter the Son of God.

You know what. yes there is everything noted above in the Bible that you smugly state there is not. Your superior intellect blinds you to the facts.

However, here is a fact that is undeniable. You will carry your knowledge of all, by yourself, and to your grave, and it won't be missed (though I'm certain you will be). And the world will continue on, though none will say you helped it to. Because all you do is tear things down, in the name of truth! no less. Ok, who's truth? Yours? Or God's?

I don't know what to tell you. I only know that you hurt people, not with your words of superior intellect and knowledge, but your attitude. And I step in front of you, because I think you should not cause harm to others. I don't believe you, because I've read the good book too. Your opinion is not the general Christian opinion. Your way offers no solace or alternative, except to declare the Christian/Judeac God is dead, so are we all. I do not accept that Excaliburton.

The next step is yours.

v/r

Q

 

[Excaliburton]

And I'm not a puppet. I go beyond the "thou shalt", into the why "thou Shalt". It is called "contemplating" (my father in law calls it cogitating). It means to sit and consider why a situation occured the way it did. Really, you think man should sit there and simply carry out orders without ever wondering why? Sometimes knowing why, makes the carrying out of orders easier to do, even if it means there will be consequences that are not liked.

Why did Abraham keep God's laws? hmmm? Because he was a robot? Because he was afraid of God? I'm surprised he didn't wet his pants, let alone fail to move or speak before God...unless there was more of a relationship between Abraham and God, than we are aware of. First off, Abraham already knew God. A trust was established between the two. Time went on and then it came upon a moment where God needed to test that trust. Here is the kicker. God needed to know if man would give up all for Him. This would determine what God would do next. (remember, with man God introduced the element of uncertainty). Man was willing to give up all for God (thank Abraham for that), and God opined that He could do no less for man...so at the right moment, enter the Son of God.

You know what. yes there is everything noted above in the Bible that you smugly state there is not. Your superior intellect blinds you to the facts.

However, here is a fact that is undeniable. You will carry your knowledge of all, by yourself, and to your grave, and it won't be missed (though I'm certain you will be). And the world will continue on, though none will say you helped it to. Because all you do is tear things down, in the name of truth! no less. Ok, who's truth? Yours? Or God's?

I don't know what to tell you. I only know that you hurt people, not with your words of superior intellect and knowledge, but your attitude. And I step in front of you, because I think you should not cause harm to others. I don't believe you, because I've read the good book too. Your opinion is not the general Christian opinion. Your way offers no solace or alternative, except to declare the Christian/Judeac God is dead, so are we all. I do not accept that Excaliburton.

The next step is yours.

v/r

Q

All we need are the words of Jesus! as reported by the ones who walked with Him and loved Him. We don't need the Dispensational doctrine that renders void every word of Jesus once He died for our sins. Dispensationalism has only been around for less than 200 years and was created in an attempt to harmonize Paul with James and John the Revelator.

If Jesus did not need to quote Paul to complete His teaching, then neither do we. All we need is Jesus! Hallelujah!

 

[Quahom1]

All we need are the words of Jesus! as reported by the ones who walked with Him and loved Him. We don't need the Dispensational doctrine that renders void every word of Jesus once He died for our sins. Dispensationalism has only been around for less than 200 years and was created in an attempt to harmonize Paul with James and John the Revelator.

If Jesus did not need to quote Paul to complete His teaching, then neither do we. All we need is Jesus! Hallelujah!

The words of John, are not from John, or if they are, they are 100 years after the words of Paul, who wrote in his lifetime, letters to the seven fledging churches, struggling to stay afloat in the time of uncertanty. While the twelve (or eleven) walked and talked, Paul did the same, and wrote.

Peter may have been the foundation upon which the church is built, but Paul finished the job in fine Jewish/Roman fashion.

I am of the opinion that Jesus, doesn't quite carry the weight with you that you imply He does.

v/r

Q

 

[Excaliburton]

Obedience is not work. It is compliance with that or whom which we believe has the authority. To believe is to have faith.

The promises were given to one who obeyed because he believed in the authority of the One demanding the obedience.

Obeyance is nothing to boast about. It is a duty to be carried out, because it is the right thing to do.

v/r

Q

Abraham was justifed by his works (or deeds or actions) of obedience.

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The promises were given to one who obeyed, as per Gen 26;5

As James said, the devils believe and tremble, so belief is not the intrinsic or essential factor in imputing righteousness.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And yes, you are correct on this: "Obedience is nothing to boast about. It is a duty to be carried out, because it is the right thing to do."

May I add that "virtue is its own reward".

Those who love Jesus will obey His commandments and bear much good fruit rather than sin or iniquity, which are violations of the Law.

 

[Excaliburton]

And I'm not a puppet. I go beyond the "thou shalt", into the why "thou Shalt". It is called "contemplating" (my father in law calls it cogitating). It means to sit and consider why a situation occured the way it did. Really, you think man should sit there and simply carry out orders without ever wondering why? Sometimes knowing why, makes the carrying out of orders easier to do, even if it means there will be consequences that are not liked.

Why did Abraham keep God's laws? hmmm? Because he was a robot? Because he was afraid of God? I'm surprised he didn't wet his pants, let alone fail to move or speak before God...unless there was more of a relationship between Abraham and God, than we are aware of. First off, Abraham already knew God. A trust was established between the two. Time went on and then it came upon a moment where God needed to test that trust. Here is the kicker. God needed to know if man would give up all for Him. This would determine what God would do next. (remember, with man God introduced the element of uncertainty). Man was willing to give up all for God (thank Abraham for that), and God opined that He could do no less for man...so at the right moment, enter the Son of God.

You know what. yes there is everything noted above in the Bible that you smugly state there is not. Your superior intellect blinds you to the facts.

However, here is a fact that is undeniable. You will carry your knowledge of all, by yourself, and to your grave, and it won't be missed (though I'm certain you will be). And the world will continue on, though none will say you helped it to. Because all you do is tear things down, in the name of truth! no less. Ok, who's truth? Yours? Or God's?

I don't know what to tell you. I only know that you hurt people, not with your words of superior intellect and knowledge, but your attitude. And I step in front of you, because I think you should not cause harm to others. I don't believe you, because I've read the good book too. Your opinion is not the general Christian opinion. Your way offers no solace or alternative, except to declare the Christian/Judeac God is dead, so are we all. I do not accept that Excaliburton.

The next step is yours.

v/r

Q

The Bible explicitly says Abraham obeyed God because he feared Him, as per
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

There is no ambiguity here in this verse.
It is not up to you or me or Paul to say it is otherwise than what is clearly written in His Word. But I think we can consider Abraham's fear as a sense of awe which is consistent with Abram's love and trust in God, but that is secondary to the actual explicit words of Gen 22:12. As James said, the "devils believe in God" but that does not cause them to obey Him. And merely
believing in God means nothing unless righteous works of obedience do not follow. As they say, "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".

Those who believe in God and love Him must also obey His voice and His Laws. It is not Paul whom they will meet at the pearly gates but Jesus, and He said "I never knew you" to those who did not obey Him

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. And what is iniquity but sin or the transgression of the Law, the Law that Jesus did not come to abolish until heaven and earth passed away.

 

[Excaliburton]

The words of John, are not from John, or if they are, they are 100 years after the words of Paul, who wrote in his lifetime, letters to the seven fledging churches, struggling to stay afloat in the time of uncertanty. While the twelve (or eleven) walked and talked, Paul did the same, and wrote.

Peter may have been the foundation upon which the church is built, but Paul finished the job in fine Jewish/Roman fashion.

I am of the opinion that Jesus, doesn't quite carry the weight with you that you imply He does.

v/r

Q

I am not sure I understand your point.

Should I ask: "How do you know the words of Paul are from Paul?"

Are you disputing the accuracy of the gospel of John in quoting Jesus?
Are you saying the epistles of Paul are more inspired than the words of the gospels?

Why do you question my belief in the weight of Jesus' words?