Get together-ism

[China Cat Sunflower]

I've been thinking for quite some time about what a natural religion would be like. Not a religion of nature (necessarily), but a religion that encorporates the positive aspects of a religion in a way that makes sense for my modern life.

It seems to me that religion is not so much about believing in something as it is about being and belonging to something. In that sense religion works well as the transmission agent of nationalism. For sure there is doctrine, dogma, and theology, but that's just the nuts and bolts. At heart religion is a social mechanism that tells us who we are, where we came from, and ties us ethnically to a group.

This last Saturday was my oldest daughter's sixth birthday party. We had probably twenty adults and ten or twelve kids here at our house. I was mingling, enjoying, and playing my role as host. I was watching the adults group, disperse, then group again, and the kids playing. I started thinking about the social mechanisms of religion and wondering if having a good old fashioned get together didn't fill all of those roles.

I was raised a Seventh-day Adventist. Sabbath was a big deal. I've come to the opinion that the concept of "weekend" is really just an expansion on what the Sabbath is supposed to be...exept that there aren't any don'ts. I want a sacred weekend every week if I can help it.

I find the ritual of what I do on the weekend starting to gell into an almost religious experience. There's the ritual of cleaning the house on Saturday, followed by ritual sex with the wife on Saturday night. I take my ritual shave Sat. morning in preperation. Sunday is my ritual game of golf followed by playing with the kids so momma can rest, and then an awesome meal in the evening, usually with good friends, and then good conversation over drinks until it's night, night time.

So maybe all I need is a sacred scripture. I thought of using the Farmers Almanac. What do you think?

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

O.K., just to expand a little since I sorta jambed that first post in without developing the idea:

This is kinda growing out of my self-dialog about "am I a Christian?" I was wondering what I would want a religion to do. What is it good for that I could use. I live in a country where I don't have to worry about psyching myself up into some sort of nationalistic, or pan-nationalistic frenzy. Maybe if I did I would embrace religion as a means toward political change or a way to achieve enfranchisement. But I don't have to worry about that, so Islam and definately Judaism don't make sense. I'm ethnically Christian, but I don't need saving. So I really have no need for something to make me more than myself.

I was pretty much a lone-wolf, but I have a family now and I've grown to appreciate the social and communal life. But I don't need a church to go to, I can have great dinners and parties at my house.

I'm interested in how everything works, but aside from Taoist sort of philosophical leanings I'm more than happy with a strictly scientific approach.

So I'm thinking that the family social routine, done in an enlightened and mindful way, pretty much does everything that a religion should.

Chris

 

[cavalier]

Given your belief that you don't need saving, yeah sure.
Sounds like you've got a pretty good sacred weekend mapped out aswell.

 

[presser_kun]

Interesting thoughts, Chris. I see where you're going, but I need to know how you're defining religion so I can effectively communicate with you.

The Wiki says . . .

Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine, or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought. It is sometimes used interchangeably with "faith" or "beliefe system," but is more socially defined than that of personal convictions. Link to full article.

A system of social coherence. That suprises me. It's much closer to what you describe, Chris, than what I would have said if I had been stopped on the street for a definition of religion.

You say, I'm thinking that the family social routine, done in an enlightened and mindful way, pretty much does everything that a religion should.

You're leaving out the divine, Chris. If religion is a system of social coherence, it's one based on a common group of beliefs concerning an object, person, unseen being, et cetera. If you leave out the focus on an object/person/being that's supernatural in some way, then you may have a wonderfully rewarding social routine, but you don't have a religion.

Do you?

Now, this is not to knock what you've developed. I can understand how rewarding and fulfilling it is. But religion is concerned with more than just social gatherings and routines. Take out the divine, however you define that, and you have bridge clubs, VFW halls, bikers who ride together on the weekends. All good (or can be) in their own right.

But they're not religions.

 

[Caimanson]

Now, this is not to knock what you've developed. I can understand how rewarding and fulfilling it is. But religion is concerned with more than just social gatherings and routines. Take out the divine, however you define that, and you have bridge clubs, VFW halls, bikers who ride together on the weekends. All good (or can be) in their own right.

But they're not religions.

I was just thinking of those clubs and groups. Have you considered perhaps that part of the reason that some people go to church is just for the fellowship as a last resort, because non-religious groups simply don't suit them?

Some of those organisations do provide a sense of purpose, even if its not an eternal one, think of charitable groups.
I agree that faith is a very powerful binding agent, specially in terms of identity, but sometimes it can make religious groups too rigid and oppressive from a fellowship point of view. I supose it is the same for any group that has strong beliefs in anything.

 

[InLove]

Hi Chris--

I'm not really offering an opinion here, just a comment.

My family is a rather culturally and ethnically diverse one. When we get together for a meal--usually a backyard barbecue, the conversation inevitably includes religion(s). It is always an illuminating dialogue. And we have been doing this for years now. At first, we tended to blunder through sensitive areas, but over time it has developed into somewhat of an interfaith experience that we all look forward to sharing each time we get together.
I can't help thinking that the "baggage" of our cultures and religions (as some might call it) that we bring to the party is actually part of the "glue" that holds us together. In fact, we have even discussed that idea on occasion.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[taijasi]

I envy you, InLove. The only regular family reunion that I'm able to go to, which is now occurring up to 3 or 4 times a year to accommodate varying branches of the family, is beginning to include a religious element. The local pastor has often been present for most of these gatherings, and I enjoy his presence - and person - considerably.

Recently though, a small chapel was built where these reunions occur. The pastor may be called on to say a few words, at each gathering, yet with the first real event in the chapel a few months ago, I found myself participating in a true, mountain-folks-tradition, old-time-religion sing-along.

Just for clarity, although I can't sing very well, I am happy to chime in with a group of folks, if there are rounds, or maybe some kind of music that doesn't presume what I believe & don't believe. Alas, the songs being sung have to do with "Jesus being my lord & savior," and walking with Jesus, and perhaps another dozen or so that pretty much have to do with Jesus. And then there are a few that are really just about Jesus.

My own experience, a few years ago, included singing Taize, which is beautiful, spiritually oriented music in Latin, and includes stuff like `Wait for the Lord,' `Jesus, Remember Me,' and `Magnificat.' The songs are pretty much all in the Christian tradition, so one might ask, what's the difference?

It's this. I do NOT enjoy the kind of songs that I know I can begin looking forward to singing at these family get-togethers. I don't, because of several reasons, and some of them might have to do with the style of music, but it's also just the assumption, and kind of a silent - expectation. This might be difficult to communicate, but it does have to do with personal beliefs, with faith & worship, and with the idea of fellowship & getting together.

What is the family get-together thing (in my family and most, I should figure) all about? The latter, but it's beginning to include more of the former. Suffice it to say that if I showed up wearing monk's robes - which I do not own - holding CDs of Tibetan Buddhist chants, and asked that we give one or two tracks a spin ... I kind of doubt that I, or the chanting monks, would be very popular.

Not everyone attending these reunions is necessarily of the same demoni ... I mean, denomination ... but it's probably safe to say that most folks are a bit more comfortable with the whole ball o' works than I am. Will I stop attending? No. Will I choose not to enter the little chapel when the lady of ceremonies decides it's time to sing? No. Will I ever even suggest, or say, that we could try a Taize song? I don't know; the idea is now occurring, I like where it's coming from, and there's a beautiful vision along with it. Wow, I didn't expect I'd say that!

But until then, will I even so much as choose to be silent, rather than sing, or decide not to sing the parts which go on, and on, and on, about Jesus being my lord & savior and all that ... yadda yadda? Ummm, no. It's not like it hurts to say it, lol. But there's a reason why I choose to participate, even though x, y, z, etc. And that gets back, I suppose, to what this thread is about.

Fellowship, in whatever tradition, context or social situation, is not far off from Brotherhood. And that IS something I believe in. If the songs sung were more along the lines of Michael Row the Boat Ashore, Blowin' in the Wind and Kum-ba-yah, I might be more comfortable ... but there are always times when we are better off, and might even learn something, by asking, "What's the greatest good, for the greatest number." That's why, I will certainly still participate ... with a smile!

But, I can still be envious. And, perhaps one day, the Taize!

Namaskar,

andrew

 

[Quahom1]

"Imagine"

John Lennon

v/r

Q

 

[InLove]

Hey taijasi--

Where do I begin? I understand exactly what you mean when it comes to choking on certain lyrics in worship. My husband and I, both separately and together, and frequently in conjunction with others, have often had a hand in choosing and presenting the music for worship services. Not only that, but my part has very much involved children. It is not always easy, to say the least!

Right now, and for the past few years, we have been part of a congregation that is quite happy with the style and presentation they are used to hearing, and even little changes tend to cause a negative reaction from many of the folks (and I am not even talking lyrics, here--just the melody!!!).

I have to pat you on the back for restraining yourself and respecting the sensitivities of those who welcome you into their worship service. I commend them, as well, for the welcoming. But I would like to suggest to you that you should not be expected to participate in any ritual (including lyrics or chants) to which you do not hold. There is no need to make a big deal out of abstaining, but it is not spiritually healthy to profess what one does not believe. For example, there are many, many old Christian hymns that I think are beautiful, and I will sing every word of them with utmost joy--and there is much in what is called contemporary praise music that I sing with the same enthusiasm. But when I run across something in the lyrics that I do not believe is right, or if I cannot yet discern the spirit behind the lyrics, then even if I am in front of the congregation, I quietly abstain from those words. There have even been times when I would have like to have chosen a certain piece of music and changed a line or two. This can work sometimes, but not always. So sometimes, I have to forego a beautiful piece, because I do not want to bring to it a perceived political statement.

I guess I could just go on and on and on about this subject. Guess it is a big part of my life. Anyway, taijasi--I think the blessings usually outweigh the discomfort in these kind of gatherings. And that goes both ways--from them to you, and from you to them. Keep giving it some time--as you well know, a change is in the air.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

My wife is a hometown girl. I had never lived anywhere more than three years my whole life before I moved here to Phoenix back in the mid eighties. And like I said, I've been a lone wolf my entire adult life. I got the hell out of the house as soon as I got out of high school, travelled all around, did a stint in the Air Force, did some more moving. I once hitch hiked from Selma, Alabama to L.A.

I didn't get married until I was thirty three, and then my wife and I, after several years of marriage, decided to have our kids. I think it took me at least the first six or seven years of my marriage before I felt comfortable in my own house. Like I didn't need to have my shoes and my keys right by the bed. It's a trip learning to be a householder, dad, and husby.

But I like it! I like my in-laws a heap too. They're so different than my folks. What I like about my wife's family is that they're, how can I say this...salt of the earth, common clay, you know: rednecks! My mom-in-law is an alky but she always brings her own Bud. My wife's siblings are normal, work-a-day, blue collar people. And all my wife's friends have kids about our girls' age and up. She's eight years younger than me. And they're all just like my in-laws because they're all from the same neighborhood. Not one of them has the slightest inclination toward religion, or politics for that matter, which is really great. They're fun to hang with. Vicious softballers, especially the girls, and big horse shoe throwers and ping-pong players. And they all like to party and watch football!

A big part of what religion is supposed to do, it seems to me, is help people tune in to the eternal cycles of life. In the sense that diety and divinity are proposed by religion, I think its the idea that behind the cycles of life there is an organizing force. One of my questions to myself is how to groove organically to the life rythm. If I'm going to have rituals I want them to grow naturally out of the routines of daily life. Let necessity be the mother, I guess. I'm finding that the elements of family events around the cycle of the year, like birthday and holiday festivities, are becoming like rituals and sacraments. And on a smaller scale, the events of each week are kinda like that too.

What clued me in to this originally was how important having a solid routine was in raising my kids. How it helps them feel secure and understand their time environment.

Gotta get of...

Chris

 

[flowperson]

China Cat:

I've always held that belief in religious expressions and rituals grew from two things.

First from the indescribable and sublime mystical experiences of certain "chosen" individuals, and then the sharing and continuance of these expressions and rituals among friends and acquaintances in a community.

Second from the cultural experiences that have been common to human beings from times way before religion came about, and that are still in effect today. These experiences are precisely what you have described your life with your family to be, and we each still have that in common to some degree after about 100,000 years. This part is all about love and not fear.

You are indeed a lucky man.

flow....

 

[Tariki]

So maybe all I need is a sacred scripture. I thought of using the Farmers Almanac. What do you think?

Chris

Farmers Almanac or not, whatever scripture you added would perhaps be a disaster..................

 

[Prober]

So maybe all I need is a sacred scripture. I thought of using the Farmers Almanac. What do you think?

Chris

Or perhaps "Animal Farm"

 

[InLove]

So maybe all I need is a sacred scripture. I thought of using the Farmers Almanac. What do you think?

Would that be the "Old Farmer's Almanac" or the "TV Version"? Because I have heard that the latter is not true to the original Almanaic text.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Would that be the "Old Farmer's Almanac" or the "TV Version"? Because I have heard that the latter is not true to the original Almanaic text.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

That's perfect!

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You guys got me thinking. In Love mentioned about how hard it is to get the congregation to sing anything new or different. I think in church there are maybe twenty songs in the hymnal that everyone knows. Everyone is happy singing those twenty songs. But I remember, every once in a while some ambitious song service leader trying to get everyone to sing another, unfamiliar song. That never really went over well.

I think that there's something to the idea of "roots" music. I guess I'm not a traditional Christian, but I still like the traditional gospel songs, the Christmas carols, and even modern praise music. It's not really about the lyrical content, but more about the kind of harmony that ties into something really deep in me. The traditional Christian hymns, the black gospel sound with the awsome Hammond B-3 organ and just the right amount of tremelo, even the stuff on Lawrence Welk: waterd down show tunes and etc., are part of the roots music for me. But what's weird is that I also have an unexplainable affinity with african stuff and I absolutely love Rhajastani style singing. But I have no interest in, or affinity with anything celtic.

Hmmm...

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You guys got me thinking. In Love mentioned about how hard it is to get the congregation to sing anything new or different. I think in church there are maybe twenty songs in the hymnal that everyone knows. Everyone is happy singing those twenty songs. But I remember, every once in a while some ambitious song service leader trying to get everyone to sing another, unfamiliar song. That never really went over well.

I think that there's something to the idea of "roots" music. I guess I'm not a traditional Christian, but I still like the traditional gospel songs, the Christmas carols, and even modern praise music. It's not really about the lyrical content, but more about the kind of harmony that ties into something really deep in me. The traditional Christian hymns, the black gospel sound with the awsome Hammond B-3 organ and just the right amount of tremelo, even the stuff on Lawrence Welk: waterd down show tunes and etc., are part of the roots music for me. But what's weird is that I also have an unexplainable affinity with african stuff and I absolutely love Rhajastani style singing. But I have no interest in, or affinity with anything celtic.

Hmmm...

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Right, whatever Chris.

Well, here's what I've been thinking about: What is the nature of religion, and what, leaving everything anachronistic behind, do I want out of it? What's it good for, and what do I want it to do?

First, the diety aspect seems to be entirely anachronistic. This is the modern world. I don't want to play act that I'm somewhere else. Don't really need a god or goddess. Why do I need that?

I'm an adult. Kids play dress-up. I'm not a kid. I don't need to dress all up in some kind of costume and act something out, especially something from a past culture that isn't my culture. That puts the skewer in neo paganism. I mean, I'm enamoured of the old west too, but I'm not gonna dress up like a cowboy and eat a ritual pot of beans.

So what's left, it seems to me, is the social aspect that I've been flogging about trying to erxplain, and tied in with that a need to feel a sense of harmony and creative purpose in the natural world and "how things work."

Now, is that enough to make a religion of? Maybe not. Probably not. No. But that's essentially what we have here in the States except that the component of national identity substitutes for all the anachronistic stuff that's missing. So what if I disregard the nationalism? Is there enough left, or enough to substitute and make something meaningful of? That's what I'm asking myself.

Chris

 

[InLove]

Hi Chris
(Wow. I have just seen this posted--sorry it is so long. Take your time to read it--I don't want your eyes to bleed!)

I think that the nature of religion is often what you suggest--an avenue for like-minded people to interact regularly in a social situation. It is also an "organizing mechanism", a means in which people can come together and practice rituals that are sacred to them. Then there is the aspect of coming together in group prayer, lifting the real problems and concerns of this world "up" to something beyond our measly selves, since we see that, on our own, we aren't doing such a great job of solving them. For many, it is a way to gain strength and encouragement in times of personal crisis, and it does provide an "instant community" and ready-made support system when we face things like illness or the passing of a loved one. (When I was well enough, one thing I did a lot of was work preparing the food for funeral meals--not much public recognition for a job like that, but I did it for at least two reasons: (1) It had been done for me and it had meant a lot, and I wanted to do the same for others, and (2) people tend to see musicians and singers as "church celebrities" and I wanted to balance that out for myself, because I do not like that part of the music ministry). And then there is, of course, in some religions and denominations, the opportunity to evangelize, which is what puts off many people who might otherwise like to participate. But I think the evangelicals are often misunderstood--there are people there who honestly have so much love in their hearts that they just want to share it with others because what they have means so much to them.

That said, I think it would be great to see people coming together in our neighborhoods to reach out to each other and provide some of these things outside organized religion. And I see it happen, occasionally. Just not often enough, and many times there are numerous, hidden political reasons behind it (just as there are in some churches, I might add). What I do think is important to many is a common goal of some kind, and I think that getting together with one's family and friends provides that in itself. And I think that it is definitely something you should continue to do and be happy about, because there is just not enough of that in the world. Whether or not this can serve as your "religion" is something only you can decide.

I realize this is turning into a long post, but I really didn't know what I was going to write before I started out here. All I knew is that I like what little I know about you, and I want to address your questions sincerely. (I wish you lived nearby--we could "get together" and barbecue and listen to J.D. and Marley and Zappa. And you could advise me on home improvement issues. Ironically, our conversation might turn to "religion", ya think? )

So, since I like you so much, will you bear with me for a moment while I speak my "native Christian language"? Please don't take this as an attempt to proseletyze, okay? That is not what CR is for. But in order for me to properly address your questions, I have to be able to speak freely about my personal experience. So here goes: For me, the things that Christ shows me are the wonders of the universe. Christianity, with all its anachronisms, problems, and even ambiguities, has still served to teach me about this Christ. And I will never deny Him, for He is my Shepherd. But where I diverge from many of my Christian brothers and sisters is here: I will not place limits on Christ. I do not know exactly how He may show Himself to others. I wait with great anticipation to find out. And I want to learn everything I can about how that might be, but I don't know for sure when or how God reveals himself to my non-Christian brothers and sisters. Now, this right here is enough to earn me the heretic's curse in the eyes of many. But this is what I have been shown by the very same Christ of Christian belief. And it is where I stand. Would I still believe this if I had never partaken of religion? I have to say that I don't know how, but I strongly believe that God would reveal "Himself" to me in one way or another. I think either we all search for something beyond ourselves, or this Entity finds us--and I really believe that it is a mutual endeavor, whether we realize it or not. And really, I do trust that we see HIm in the face of others, if we want to.

Whew! I have talked a bunch here, haven't I? Well, I could chalk it up to blog therapy, or I could simply thank you for providing an opportunity for me to finally say some things I have wanted to say for some time now. So, thanks--and I hope you understand that this was not meant to be a sermon of any kind. Just being honest.

And as far as the music goes? As I have recently expressed to a couple of other folks here, music is a free agent. It is there for us and it can transcend whatever assignments it is given by man. (By the way, ya don't like the Celtic stuff? Some of it is way cool! And there is something to be said for dressing up like a cowboy every now and then. But I would suggest that you don't indulge in the ritual pot of beans when you are on a remote job--too hard to get out of all those tight clothes and chaps and stuff when you need to.)

As Always,
InPeace,
InLove,
Debora

 

[flowperson]

InLove:

Thank you for your meaningful post. It was just long enough.

For quite some time now I have not needed a group to help me appreciate the meaning of what I believe. Although in the past church life meant a great deal to me, especially the music part.

I am constantly seeking far and wide for the meaning that you so artfully described...and every so often it has found me. And...I have been profoundly changed each time that it has. Each experience shook me to my core. And many times I found myself repeating the old saw, "be careful what you look for...you might find it."

Chris...As I said earlier, you are indeed a lucky man to be content with life as it is for you. But stuff happens...even on a job somewhere as you pointed out elsewhere here...and then things change. Then it's time to look for answers...and to be able to honestly accept them when they're found, or as I said, they find you.

I keep going back to the fact that Neanderthals buried their loved ones with bouquets of flowers in what is now Iran 50,000 years ago. Every time I think about how they celebrated and mourned the life of a revered and loved one in this way, which probably also included lost rituals to celebrate both life and death...then I understand what religion really is and why it is important to us in whatever forms it is celebrated...at home or with others away from home.

flow...