Loss of belief/loss of faith

[Tariki]

Is there a difference between loss of belief and loss of faith?

Can loss of belief in fact be a positive thing?

Could loss of faith ever be positive?

(I understand faith as a letting go, a trust in reality-as-is, a willingness to accept to the point expressed by Eckhart............."They can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast")

Thanks
Derek

 

[jiii]

I offer a paraphrase of a discussion by Watts that I think is most appropriate to this question:

"There is a strong distinction between faith on one hand, and belief on the other. Belief is, as a matter of fact, quite contrary to faith. Because belief is really wishing. It's from the Anglo-Saxon root, 'lief', to wish, and is a fervent hope that the Universe will turn out to be thus and so. And therefore, in this sense, belief precludes the possibility of faith, because faith is openness to truth, to reality...whatever it may turn out to be. 'I want to know the truth'...that is the attitude of faith. It is not to use ideas about the Universe as something that one can hang onto, as if a rock. There's something very rigid about a rock..."

 

[inhumility]

I offer a paraphrase of a discussion by Watts that I think is most appropriate to this question:
"There is a strong distinction between faith on one hand, and belief on the other. Belief is, as a matter of fact, quite contrary to faith. Because belief is really wishing. It's from the Anglo-Saxon root, 'lief', to wish, and is a fervent hope that the Universe will turn out to be thus and so. And therefore, in this sense, belief precludes the possibility of faith, because faith is openness to truth, to reality...whatever it may turn out to be. 'I want to know the truth'...that is the attitude of faith. It is not to use ideas about the Universe as something that one can hang onto, as if a rock. There's something very rigid about a rock..."

I like the paraphrase,except that I could not make out from the last sentence.
'I want to know the truth'...that is the attitude of faith" and so my concept of a person having faith is accommodating the truth with reason whereever it comes from,rather go on sticking on a dogma wich is a blind-faith or a blindfolded person.
Thanks

 

[Tariki]

Thanks!

Like Jiii I would identify a difference between "belief" and "faith".............in fact, to my mind they are virtual opposites! ."Belief" suggests clinging on, "faith" more a "letting go".

The context in which I ask my questions is a thread seen on another Forum where someone spoke of losing their faith. The first thing I thought was, well sometimes this can be a good thing - yet then recognised that I was thinking more of "belief" than faith as such.

Yet again, often "the dark night of the soul" is spoken of, when all that we depend upon and identify with is swept away. Perhaps something like the "great doubt" spoken of in Zen Buddhism. Zen alos speaks of the need to finally leap from the top of a hundred foot pole..................without a safety net! The "dropping of body and mind".

I understand how a loss of "belief" can be a positive thing. It seems to me to suggest growth. Yet "faith"? Is faith not the basis of eveything, the groundrock? Can anything positive ultimately come from even faith being lost? In terms of realizing ultimate "enlightenment"/"salvation"

"Blessed are the poor in spirit"

Eckhart:- "They are truly poor who know nothing, desire nothing, possess nothing"

How radical are the words "possess nothing"................"know nothing"?

 

[InLove]

Hi, Everyone--

My experience so far has been that "belief" is a result of "faith". "Belief" is something, to me, that can be expanded--and this all within the practice of faith, which is something that can deepen, but remains "faith" nonetheless.

Well--I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone reading it. LOL--I know what I mean!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Dondi]

To me, losing one belief means that one no longer holds their religious convictions. Perhaps this is caused by another religious belief that has taken place of the old, for example, a Christian who has converted to Islam. Or perhaps one loses there religious convictions through perceived conflict with science. This loss of belief generally follows a logical course in reasoning.

To lose one's faith means that one has a particular religious conviction, but has lost the will to trust into that system, perhaps through a difficult experience or lack of experiential confirmation in that faith. For example, if one loses a child, perhaps it results in a loss of faith in God or percieved unfairness of God in their situation. This loss of faith generally is a emotional response in a person's circumstance.

IMHO.

 

[wil]

Is there ever a benefit? I think so. Often when we are in a belief system for an extended period of time a number of things may come up, complacency or being close minded (blinders) to name a couple... Sometimes it seems spirit tosses something in to shake us and wake us....causing us to re-evaluate...we either come back stronger, or find that it is time for us to move on...

 

[Tariki]

Is there ever a benefit? I think so. Often when we are in a belief system for an extended period of time a number of things may come up, complacency or being close minded (blinders) to name a couple... Sometimes it seems spirit tosses something in to shake us and wake us....causing us to re-evaluate...we either come back stronger, or find that it is time for us to move on...

wil,

I tend to agree. It seems that seeing ourselves as walking a path and "progressing" along it we accumulate a lot of baggage - identifications and justifications..............beliefs. This can even create a false "self" that thinks itself wise and "saved" !! Yet from my own reading and understanding a true "enlightenment"/"salvation" means you drop all the baggage and life is lived spontaneously, beyond "calculation". The pure freedom of reality-as-is (God) lives through us and in us. Thomas Merton said somewhere that "grace" is not a possession but has to be renewed within each moment. In this context "beliefs" can almost be seen as a denial of grace.

What I am really asking is................how far does/can/need the "loss" go? Merton also says in his Journals...."...the solitary knows least where he is going, and yet he is more sure, for there is one thing he cannot doubt: he travels where God is leading him. That is precisely why he doesn't know the way."

"The one thing he cannot doubt"?? Can there be something positive in even losing such a trust?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Is there a difference between loss of belief and loss of faith?

Yes, since a belief may be held tentatively, and faith cannot.

Can loss of belief in fact be a positive thing?

Yes, if the belief is mistaken.

Could loss of faith ever be positive?

By "faith" I see you mean a kind of acceptance of reality as is -- perhaps also a lack of resistance to the future as it unfolds. This is an odd way of speaking of faith, since faith typically refers to accepting certain ideas about reality, e.g. the reasons why one may "trust reality" and "let go", and what one may expect of the future. To my mind, there is no faith that does not involve a particular understanding of reality, and that is why faith may be shaken -- it's when those ideas are challenged and seen to be possibly mistaken beliefs.

But going by what I interpret to be your use of the word faith: Loss of acceptance of reality is never positive. We need to be able to embrace the present and the future in order to be unimpeded in the self-directed course of our lives, and one of the greatest evils for us -- perhaps the greatest -- is to be paralyzed by inner conflict, and the example in this case is to be paralyzed by fear of the future.

I'd like to think that I have faith in the sense in which you mean.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Tariki]

By "faith" I see you mean a kind of acceptance of reality as is -- perhaps also a lack of resistance to the future as it unfolds. This is an odd way of speaking of faith, since faith typically refers to accepting certain ideas about reality, e.g. the reasons why one may "trust reality" and "let go", and what one may expect of the future. To my mind, there is no faith that does not involve a particular understanding of reality, and that is why faith may be shaken -- it's when those ideas are challenged and seen to be possibly mistaken beliefs.

But going by what I interpret to be your use of the word faith: Loss of acceptance of reality is never positive. We need to be able to embrace the present and the future in order to be unimpeded in the self-directed course of our lives, and one of the greatest evils for us -- perhaps the greatest -- is to be paralyzed by inner conflict, and the example in this case is to be paralyzed by fear of the future.

I'd like to think that I have faith in the sense in which you mean.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for your post.

Faith as an on-going openess to reality as it unfolds - as expressed by the words of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart that I quoted before....."They can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast".

This implies/presupposes a fundamental trust in Reality-as-is. Maybe it is this fundamental trust that I am asking my questions about. Perhaps such a "trust" can itself become a concept, a "justification" that we identify with and makes it "ours" as possession. Instead of "gift/grace" it becomes "attainment".

For a long time I have known such a "trust".............that I live in a cosmos, not a chaos. All things have value and meaning. Ultimately "all will be well"............and IS well.

It just seems from reading a few things here and there about "dark nights of the soul" that even such fundamental trust can be swept away, and this for our own good. Perhaps I misinterpret......

Anyway, a few lines from Thoams Merton's Journals......about the "inestimable greatness and dignity of faith"........."an intensification of faith by love.....that simplifies our faith and makes it more clear by purifying it of every created image....................so that the purest experience of all begins with the realization of how far faith transcends experience"

A faith that "transcends experience"?

 

[InLove]

Hi Derek,

This thread stays on my mind and heart, so I am thinking I would like to try again to address your sincere and valuable question the best way I know how.

I think that initially, to have "faith" in something means that this is where we place our trust. It is not the same thing as "believing". However, if what we put our faith in proves by experience to be trustworthy, then we begin to believe. If what we have trusted continues to yield these same results, we continue to believe. If not, we don't--and it can hurt. In this case, I would say that losing one's belief would also amount to losing faith in that which brought us to said belief. And it might hamper our ability to trust in anything again, at least temporarily. But I think it is possible that if we are to have any kind of hope or mental health, we eventually have to trust in something, even if it is only ourselves.

On the other hand (sort of), if we have trusted in something we see as "higher" than ourselves, and it has consistantly brought forth blessings of the spirit, I think that if we remain willing to trust even further, we can be blessed with surprises in that our beliefs can change a bit. In other words, we learn to trust the "teacher" in whom we place our faith. And this can be a most wonderful, exciting, joyful thing. And peaceful...so peaceful. It can lead to resolutions of the spirit in such areas as acceptance of others as equal in the "eyes" of Love.

So can the loss of belief ever be a good thing? Yes. So can the expansion of a belief (in which case, what we have believed is not necessarily "baggage", but something we may build upon and grow from). Can the loss of faith ever be good? Yes, if we find we have put our faith in something untrustworthy. But it can take so much time to hopefully recover from the temporary ability to trust in anything.

I don't know if any of what I have said truly addresses the issue the way you see it. But, as I said, your question was on my heart, so I thought maybe this could help you or someone reading it.

InPeace,
InLove,
Debora

 

[InLove]

Hi again--I need to correct something I wrote.

I wrote:

But it can take so much time to hopefully recover from the temporary ability to trust in anything.

What I meant to write:

But it can take so much time to hopefully recover from the temporary inability to trust in anything.

Sorry about that. Hope this clears things up a little. The subject can be confusing enough!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Tariki]

Hi Derek,

This thread stays on my mind and heart, so I am thinking I would like to try again to address your sincere and valuable question the best way I know how.

I think that initially, to have "faith" in something means that this is where we place our trust. It is not the same thing as "believing". However, if what we put our faith in proves by experience to be trustworthy, then we begin to believe. If what we have trusted continues to yield these same results, we continue to believe. If not, we don't--and it can hurt. In this case, I would say that losing one's belief would also amount to losing faith in that which brought us to said belief. And it might hamper our ability to trust in anything again, at least temporarily. But I think it is possible that if we are to have any kind of hope or mental health, we eventually have to trust in something, even if it is only ourselves.

On the other hand (sort of), if we have trusted in something we see as "higher" than ourselves, and it has consistantly brought forth blessings of the spirit, I think that if we remain willing to trust even further, we can be blessed with surprises in that our beliefs can change a bit. In other words, we learn to trust the "teacher" in whom we place our faith. And this can be a most wonderful, exciting, joyful thing. And peaceful...so peaceful. It can lead to resolutions of the spirit in such areas as acceptance of others as equal in the "eyes" of Love.

So can the loss of belief ever be a good thing? Yes. So can the expansion of a belief (in which case, what we have believed is not necessarily "baggage", but something we may build upon and grow from). Can the loss of faith ever be good? Yes, if we find we have put our faith in something untrustworthy. But it can take so much time to hopefully recover from the temporary inability to trust in anything.

I don't know if any of what I have said truly addresses the issue the way you see it. But, as I said, your question was on my heart, so I thought maybe this could help you or someone reading it.

InPeace,
InLove,
Debora

Debora,

Thanks for your interest in my questions.

I would just like to make it plain that none of this involves for me any current loss of fundamental trust in Reality-as-is (I use this term, being a Pure Land Buddhist) I am only seeking clarification and further understanding.

Buddhism in general sees suffering as the result of clinging to "self", identifying with "self" and all its judgements and desires. This includes "beliefs", which are seen to be held as a consequence of desire for the satisfaction/pleasure of this "self". Generally speaking Buddhism follows the way of "negation", a stripping of the self of all its clinging and desires, leaving greater clarity of mind which begins to "see" as things truly are beyond the desires of the ego. Well, that's the theory! This way has great affinity with certain trends in Christian mysticism, the via negativa of those such as Meister Eckhart and St John of the Cross. (This is Eckhart speaking of God......"Nothing that knowledge can grasp or desire can want is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness. And there God shines". He also speaks of the truly "poor in spirit" as those who "know nothing, desire nothing, possess nothing". Again, St John of the Cross has said......."If you wish to be sure of the road you tread on then close your eyes and walk in the dark")

Beliefs within this path are for "crossing over, not for grasping" (the Buddhist parable of the raft). If held too tightly they become justifications, the self becomes solid and self-authenticating, ultimately dividing itself from others - and this often a division of judgement. I suppose it could be a case of seeking to "let go.......and let God"!

I am just seeking to understand just how far the "letting go" goes!! There seems to be cases in the writings of the mystics where they have lost all sense of trust, where the self is stripped to a point beyond any belief/faith.............and this ultimately leads to a "purified" trust (if "trust" remains the word). As I said before, the Zen's speak of the "great doubt" and of the "dropping of body and mind".

Anyway, again, thank you for your interest.

Derek

 

[neosnoia]

I offer a paraphrase of a discussion by Watts that I think is most appropriate to this question:

"There is a strong distinction between faith on one hand, and belief on the other. Belief is, as a matter of fact, quite contrary to faith. Because belief is really wishing. It's from the Anglo-Saxon root, 'lief', to wish, and is a fervent hope that the Universe will turn out to be thus and so. And therefore, in this sense, belief precludes the possibility of faith, because faith is openness to truth, to reality...whatever it may turn out to be. 'I want to know the truth'...that is the attitude of faith. It is not to use ideas about the Universe as something that one can hang onto, as if a rock. There's something very rigid about a rock..."

Nice Watts quote! The last two lines stand out to me because I used similar language in a recent post on my blog - What is Brickianity.

 

[JosephM]

Is there a difference between loss of belief and loss of faith?

Can loss of belief in fact be a positive thing?

Could loss of faith ever be positive?

(I understand faith as a letting go, a trust in reality-as-is, a willingness to accept to the point expressed by Eckhart............."They can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast")

Thanks
Derek

Hi Tariki,

From my Christian perspective, there is a hugh difference.
Belief is a mental conviction that may or may not be true. One can choose to believe whatever they want. Belief is not knowing because in knowing there is no need for belief.
On the other hand, Faith as defined in the Bible in Hebrews 11:1
" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. "

is having the evidence of things not seen. It is the invisible substance of which things not yet seen are made. In my experience it is 'knowing' that comes as a revelation and bypasses mind. It is a oneness with source that knows and requires no belief. It is indeed a letting go of 'self'.

Loss of belief to me has been shown to be a positive thing. Our programmed belief systems lock us in to possible fallacy and it is very difficult to break free or be open to truth. You might believe I am going to give you an item. Once I give it to you, there is of course no need to believe I gave it to you. Belief is no more necessary. If one wishes to hold on to beliefs it is best to take them lightly, otherwise one will become closeminded.

Loss of faith on the other hand is an impossibility in a sense. How can that (truth/knowing) which is always present ever be lost? Faith is not something to be found. It is only realized when obscurations to it are removed.

Just another point of view to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Tariki]

Hi Tariki,

From my Christian perspective, there is a hugh difference.
Belief is a mental conviction that may or may not be true. One can choose to believe whatever they want. Belief is not knowing because in knowing there is no need for belief.
On the other hand, Faith as defined in the Bible in Hebrews 11:1
" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. "

is having the evidence of things not seen. It is the invisible substance of which things not yet seen are made. In my experience it is 'knowing' that comes as a revelation and bypasses mind. It is a oneness with source that knows and requires no belief. It is indeed a letting go of 'self'.

Loss of belief to me has been shown to be a positive thing. Our programmed belief systems lock us in to possible fallacy and it is very difficult to break free or be open to truth. You might believe I am going to give you an item. Once I give it to you, there is of course no need to believe I gave it to you. Belief is no more necessary. If one wishes to hold on to beliefs it is best to take them lightly, otherwise one will become closeminded.

Loss of faith on the other hand is an impossibility in a sense. How can that (truth/knowing) which is always present ever be lost? Faith is not something to be found. It is only realized when obscurations to it are removed.

Just another point of view to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

Joseph,

Thanks. Yes, I agree. Beliefs for me belong to the false self that seeks its own deification; they are always a product of the past. In as much as they are of the past they could be understood as embracing experience...................yet as I quoted before..."faith transcends experience."

I think there has been a little confusion in my own mind (a little!!??) Perhaps when a fundamental trust is interpreted/transposed into a "belief" that therefore all will be "well" for us now and forever..................."well" as - again - interpreted by the desires of our false self/ego........then it would seem a good thing to lose it. Yet true faith/trust goes beyond this. As you say, it is there when all obscurations are removed. It is there as a "given". A gift. We have to be ready for anything, the feast or the fast!!

In Pure Land Buddhism the Primal Vow is understood as the ultimate Will of Reality-as-is that ALL will come to "enlightenment", that in fact ALL are already enlightened. The unfolding of the Vow Mind is the unfolding of an ongoing reality that works for the good of all. It is the "obscurations" that need to be removed. "Beliefs" can become a network of obscurations that cloud the unfolding of truth/grace within each moment.


(Just reading through what I have written..............As InLove said earlier, this can be confusing enough already!!)