What changed when Jesus died?

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Blue Jay

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A proposition occurred to me based on:
  • meaning of sacrifice,
  • divine-human relationship,
  • hunter-gatherer mentality.
Meaning of Sacrifice

Surrendering, submitting, giving up that which is precious to show subservience to another.

Human-Divine Relationship

Deity is all-powerful. Humans are but playthings at the mercy of an all-powerful temperamental deity whose wrath must be appeased to ensure crops, a good hunt, food, survival.

Hunter-Gatherer Mentality

Every single body is of vital importance because of its role in the hunt and battle.

Conclusion

Given this context and mentality, it would have served the larger good to placate the deity by showing the ultimate subservience by sacrificing the most vital possession of the tribe--one of its members, a human body.

Comments

I cannot yet see the link between the above and the sacrifice of the God of gods. If we understand sacrifice as described above, might it be seen as God's covenent with his people?

Presupposition: There are two players--God and humanity. Since time immemorial, humanity has been proving its subservience to an all-powerful deity as described above.

God is saying to himself: This is crazy! I love these people. I MADE them--I made them in my own image. I've shown my love in so many ways--I've given them fertility, crops, good hunts, survival in a harsh environment, but they still don't get it. WHY?

Finally, God realizes: The only language humans understand is sacrificing one of their own. Perhaps if I sacrifice one of my very own--my Son--perhaps then they will understand that I love them.

It works! Humans finally understand that: God loves us. It matters not to God how stupid and blundering we are, nor how many bad decisions and mistakes we make, God loves us all the same. Our sins are forgiven!


To Sum Up

It is okay for us humans to be who we are. It does not matter whether God exists. What matters is that we love each other and cooperate for the survival of our species and our planet. Propogating religion with its rules and traditions and rituals is but a continuation of attempts at placating a wrathful God, which nullifies God's sacrifice.

But it was not completely in vain.

1. For the most part, humanity no longer feels the need to kill a living body--whether human or animal--to please God.
2. Humans got the message that God loves them and forgives their sins.

From what I have been able to learn/observe so far, this seems to be a universal phenomenon for the most part. I don't know if animal sacrifice continues to be practiced by any society or not, but it is no longer the rule of the day by humanity as a whole. Perhaps this is what changed approximately at Jesus' death--give or take a century or two. I wonder what your thoughts are on this.
 
I like the way you put that BJ. That makes more sense to me than anything I've heard before. The sacrifice means nothing to God but if it shows us how much he loves us then it works.

I'm glad it works for many people, but it offends me. It just makes me sad. But what do I know?

As for animal sacrifices, I read that major sacrifices had already ceased by Jesus's time; just a couple of doves now and then. Then the Romans destroyed the Temple so that was the end of all sacrifices.

I wish I shared your optimism, BJ, but it seems that now we sacrifice whole countries to our megalomania.
VC
 
Sacrifice signifies our inability to please the Lord. The reason for sacrifice is to recognize our inablility to obey God's Perfect Law. If we could perfectly obey God, there would be no need of sacrifice, for our obedience would be that sacrifice.

Think back to Adam and Eve. I believe that before they fell they were clothed in the righteousness of God, and had no shame before Him. When they sinned, they became ashamed and aware of their nakedness. They tried to hide their shame, both physically and spiritually, by trying to cover themselves with fig leaves. (But how woefully inadequate is it when we try to hid our own sin...our sin will find us out!) So God's righteousness was gone. God had to make provisions to cover their nakedness by killing an animal to provide clothing that would make a temporary covering for them. But it in no way replaced the righteousness in God that they lost.

Sacrifice covers our inadequacies. So that our conscience would not be burdened with the fact that we have blown it with God. It is God's provision to deal with us sinners so that we can obey Him. So from Adam up until Christ, sacrifices were made to bring us at one with God (atonement), despite our sins.

What Christ did was take all those sacrifices upon Himself. All those sins against God were laid upon Him and He became the sin for us, that we might have the righteousness of God, a righteousness not our own.

By declaring us righteous in Christ, we can regain what was lost in the Fall, that is we may now have free access to the thrown of God through His Spirit, which gives us the power to live rightouesly in a practical way.

"...Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." - I Samuel 15:22
 
Dondi said:
What Christ did was take all those sacrifices upon Himself. All those sins against God were laid upon Him and He became the sin for us, that we might have the righteousness of God, a righteousness not our own.
Click to expand...

I see this very often Dondi, that theologians work out a sentence that sounds impressive but actually means nothing. If sacrifices were as you say just to make us feel better about being bad, then Christ is doing us no favours by ending them. And how can we be righteous and not righteous at the same time? I know this is the orthodox view but it just doesn't add up.
 
God is perfect. We are not.

It's not a matter of making us feel better. It is a matter of making us right. Sacrifices mean nothing to God if it doesn't change the heart.

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." - Psalm 51:16-17

If we think that we are in like flint just by making sacrifices, we missed the point. Over and over, the scriptures teach what God is really after.

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6

"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required." - Psalm 40:6

You can see the uselessness of vain sacrifices in Isaiah:

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 1:11-20

This last part is what God is after. In order to have a relationship with God, we must come to His terms. What Christ did was free us from the burden of the Law, so that we can love God in our hearts, and not obligatorily. It is grace that gives us the means to love God properly.

"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased." - Hebrews 13:12-16
 
The word `sacrifice' literally means to make HOLY. It requires that we GIVE UP something which we might prefer doing, by desire, or which we have become accustomed to doing, by habit ... or best of all, something that we THINK is right - once we recognize that a higher good exists.

Those who are so down on human nature, and like to emphasize the "sinning" aspect of being human, need to remember the point about missing the mark. The archer (Saggitarius) does not give up. S/he takes better aim, and shoots again, and again, and again ... UNTIL s/he HITS the mark. The disciple, in Scoprio (which is the SIGN of discipleship, universally), conquers the challenges of sex, power, and greed (money/comfort).

This has subtler implications. But EACH passing of the Scorpio tests (higher & higher turns of the wheel, as we progress as disciples) - means giving UP something, of our own nature/past, to become a better, Holier person. In this way, we walk with Christ, as "little" Christs (in the words of a Lutheran pastor whom I barely remember from childhood) ... and we progress, as Christ draws us to greater Love, and potential to Love.

The absolute requirement, for this to occur, is that we are ready, willing and ABLE to make the proper sacrifices. We don't have to do it all in a day, or overnight, or even in one lifetime (mileage may vary, on this one, of course). But we do have to keep trying.

And the trying is not in vain, as if to suggest that we cannot do it alone. In fact, we MUST do it alone - or not at all. This is a hard lesson. It eventually will claim not only our life, but ALL that we hold dear, precious and close to our heart. Friends, family, even our closest companion(s). And this is what Christ helped prepare the disciples for ... gently suggesting (like the Buddha), that we not be attached to the things of the world. Something about storing up treasures in Heaven, not on earth.

But it's a gradual thing. Giving up more and more, which WE would otherwise prefer to have, do, think, or be. THIS ... is not easy. It will not simply claim your life, it will claim much, much more. Many are called, few are capable of answering - so fully, in this go-round.

Vicarious atonement? Perhaps no greater evil, no more pernicious lie, has ever been foisted upon humanity, by the preisthood of the day. It is a sad thing, yet people still struggle to defend such things as "Jesus died for my sins," instead of just considering how ridiculous this is. Jesus died because of our sins, not for them. We can either collectively own that, or play the blame game. Time to forgive, Love, accept and move on. Time to focus on SELF.

Irony, that. How do we live in self-forgetfulness, yet also learn to stop worrying about OTHER people? Irony of ironies, Christians often seem to get so worked up, about FELLOW Christians!!! :confused: So much wasted energy, time, and effort. Trust me, I know about waste. I am close to mastering it (reverse aspect). :p But still, I don't give up! And I'm human!!!


Let me clarify:
And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have store house nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is today in the field, and tomorrow is cast in to the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? (Luke 12:22-29)

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11:11-13)

​
(continued)
 
There's something there for everyone. But I especially like what's being emphasized here. ANY human father, "evil" as we are, has enough love to "give good gifts unto his children." This doesn't sound like damnation. It doesn't sound like condmenation. It is NOT even judgment, as we are so wont to use the word. It is FORGIVEness, and LOVE. And gee, a HUMAN can do all this. What can GOD do then? Hmmm, I wonder. DAMN us? Reject us? Tell us to go fish, because we haven't uttered something with our tongues?

The flowers have a lesson for us here. God does not curse the flower, if it fails to blossom. We are like the perennial. If we don't make it one season, we try again the next. Some seasons may show more beauty and bounty than others, but one bad harvest does not end the farmer's lifestyle, or the gardener's careful tending.

NOT a sparrow falls ... that God doesn't know it. Yet a person can be condemned, damned, or forever cast from God's Loving Presence - simply because s/he hasn't uttered something, professed something, or even expressed something? NOT for failure to reach perfection, does God condemn, or judge, or damn. These are harsh words. God is not harsh. God is fair. God is Just.

Failure in one season, means that extra effort may be needed next season, but God is not wasteful. Not a single ATOM of God's is lost unnecessarily, or without a purpose. Humanity can be wasteful. We can destroy. We can sin in this way. But this has been permitted by God. This has been willed by God. God is not the author of error. God is not a being of folly, and pettiness. God, I've been lead to believe and understand, does NOT make what we call "mistakes." That, if I remember correctly, is what being HUMAN is all about. And learning not to repeat the same ones over, and over, and over. Especially when they harm ourselves, and others, and slow the whole world's progress. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:22)

The sooner we realize and accept that we're truly and literally, all in this together ... and the sooner we can accept the responsibility of being our Brother's Keeper, as best we're able - AFTER we have mastered the corresponding lesson(s) about being our OWN (Keeper) ... the sooner this world will become a Sacred Planet. Planets, like Human Souls, are not made for destruction. They are relatively permanent - certainly important - Creations. But we do not originate here, and it is not our destiny to remain here forever. Yet without the planet, we cannot fulfil our Purpose, individually, or as the collective Human Family.

So much confusion, largely centered around the teaching of two groups of Human Souls - one whose "Final Judgement" means returning home sooner, the other whose Destiny (Blessing, and Good Fortune, equally as the rest) is to return home later. NOT a sparrow falls. NOT a single atom of matter is destroyed. Science trumps religion, in this most BASIC of understandings. :eek: [And stop worrying already! But remember, S/he who seeks to be first, shall be last ... ours is to SERVE, Lovingly, not compete for status, and flash an *imaginary* "member's only" card when we feel threatened or insecure. :rolleyes:]

Atoms evolve. Cells evolve. Tissue grows and evolves. Humans, and our SOULS, evolve! Even GOD evolves!!! And yes, Jesus too, EVOLVES. The Cosmic Christ, shining for us as a certain STAR in the Heavens ... even THAT, evolves.

God's Greatest Sacrifice ... was to DESCEND into Incarnation, so that WE TOO, might evolve the God-Spark into something Greater. "In this God, we Live, and move, and have our Being."

Anyone want to MAKE GOOD on the talents?

I may be having a hard time of it (my OWN fault, my responsibility), but I CANNOT skip the work, the effort required, no matter what I believe. It may sound Gnostic, but God died, that we might live. That death, was the descent from the state of the Absolute (when the Universe was NOT) - into what we call existence. Which is the Greater Reality? God? Or God's manifested, Created, Emanated Cosmos? Hmmm. ;)

Look down at the ground. That's God. Look up at the sky. That's God too. Now the mirror trick. Damn I hate that one. :eek:

Okay ... your regularly scheduled program is back on the air. Enjoy! :)

Love and Light,

andrew
 
What an epic. There's no way I can follow that. Dondi, I love those passages of Isaiah that affirm the importance of how we live out God's love rather than depending on shows or ceremonies. That is why I find it all the harder to understand the sacrifice motif at the centre of orthodox Christianity.

I remember how irritated I was when I read Shardik, by Richard Adams. (To anyone who hasn't read it, I recommend it. It is a test of endurance to read it, but worth the effort.) The book appears to suggest that a meaning was found for Jesus's death after the event to make some sense out of what seemed a perplexing and tragic event. But the question has remained in my head. There is no doubt that Jesus was clear about his intentions in going to Jerusalem, and clear about the consequences.

I find this hard because I cling to this life. I love it. I don't want to let it go, ever. I know this is not only impossible but unenlightened. Maybe one day I will know better.

When Jeff Buckley died after a perfect day practising his songs with his band it seemed inexplicable. He just leaned back into the waves and let them carry him away. This still grieves me today. Maybe there is another way to see death: as a finishing off of a perfect work. That is after all the last thing Jesus said - "It is finished".

What do the good and wise on this forum think?
 
What changed when Jesus died?

God's wrath was expressed on His Son, Jesus. Because of that, those whom Christ died for are now justified and are given eternal life with God. Blessed are those people whos sins are forgiven.
 
this is one of my favorite verses regarding this...

"XXXVI. Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God...We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 85)
 
In a sense ... nothing.
But when He rose from the dead ... everything.

1 Corinthians 15 is a good starting place.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
In a sense ... nothing.
But when He rose from the dead ... everything.

1 Corinthians 15 is a good starting place.

Thomas
Click to expand...


20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Hey Thomas, great to see you again. :)

luna
 
No one has really answered my question yet, so I'll be more specific about my question. It's long so bear with me. Seems I can't write it out briefly because then people misunderstand.

Okay, so Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins.

a) What is sin?
Who is paying what to whom?

Sin: intentionally doing something you know is wrong

Okay, I never do that but probably most people do since there is this teaching.

I spend some time on this planet, something like three, four decades.

I observe people deeply. I am always aware of underlying motivations as best one can be aware of that in other humans.

I read autobiographies or faith stories about people whom I was taught are evil.

I worked with such people. I learned to know them very well. We had some deep conversations. They were every bit as genuine as my own mother. It was from her that I learned the most intense parts of religion.

In the meantime I also read all the books I could lay hands on (I borrowed from the public library) about self-esteem and inferiority complex. The topic held enormous appeal on the personal level because it offered me hope in an utterly hopeless situation.

Via all that reading, observation, analysis, and thinking I came to the conclusion that humans are inherently good, if only love can connect with that goodness

For some strange reason I never connected the dots between this conclusion and its religious implications. Not until I ran into Christians who were very hostile to the idea did I realize the religious implications. Well, I wasn't going to change my understanding of reality just to please the Bible. I had done my research. I knew the reality of the situation. The Bible, however, was not always right. For example, it assumed a flat earth. And today we know that the earth is not flat. Likewise it assumes a that the sun revolves around the earth (e.g. the day the sun stood still) and today we know that is not true.

Okay. That answers the question about inherent sin. It does not dispose of the sin theology, however.

Jesus died to save people from their sin. Sin absolutely had to exist. WHAT IS SIN? No answer todate.

The second part of the problem: Who is paying what to whom?

The man on the cross obviously is the one paying. The Bible makes it out that God is paying i.e. he sacrificed his son exactly like Abraham sacrificed Isaac.

Okay so we have God paying God.

Then there's the idea that God used this model of sacrifice because it was what was best understood by Jesus' Jewish followers.

Now THAT'S a strange one! If this was for "ALL" people then it should also make sense to us today! A God who knows the end from the beginning and for whom a thousand years are as one day and vice versa, would realistically have chosen a less culture-specific symbol.

Besides, death is too serious a matter--cost far too much to the victim--to stand ONLY as a symbol. That much is obvious.

But let's suppose this is correct. Original sin exists. Jesus' crucifixion was absolutely crucial to human welfare. But how does it work?

There are two strands for the argument.

1. From God's side

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

It was out of pure love. God loved us so much he did not want us to go to hell. Somehow or other, it was a major price for him to have his only begotten son die on a cross. Okay, okay, I see.


2. From Jesus' side as a human and therefore the human side

So Jesus died in our place and somehow or other made God happy.

We humans are so desperately deficient that we could never ever even get near God were it not for Jesus' death. Let's forget the millions of God-fearing souls that lived and died before Jesus ever made the atonement. Somehow or other, it's just and it works.

Now if our sin was so serious that Someone had to die for ALL time and for ALL people, then the death of said person must of necessity cause some major change in the universe. This works on the assumption that the universe is the common ground between God and humans. There must have been an obstacle of some kind in the universe phsycially separating God and humans. Since the physical death of a human body was required to remove the obstacle it must of necessity have been a physical obstact, something as physical and concrete as sin.

And this obstacle must of necessity have been changed in some way at Jesus' death. Otherwise his death makes no sense. So what was that thing that changed?
 
This works on the assumption that the universe is the common ground between God and humans. There must have been an obstacle of some kind in the universe phsycially separating God and humans.
Click to expand...

Wrong assumption. The soul is the common ground between God and man, not the universe, and the soul is not a physical nor a material thing.

So if you're looking for a material, measurable change, a physical difference, you're looking for the wrong thing.

Thomas
 
Hi BlueJay -

One bug-bear:
The Bible, however, was not always right. For example, it assumed a flat earth. And today we know that the earth is not flat. Likewise it assumes a that the sun revolves around the earth (e.g. the day the sun stood still) and today we know that is not true.
Click to expand...

The Bible no-where assumes a flat earth. The Church never assumed a flat earth. Christopher Columbus and his crew never assumed a flat earth. This whole 'flat earth' thing is one of those myths which has entered common consciousness but which is simply not true.

One of my favourite (and inexplicable) inspirations is the Greek mathamatician who stuck a stick in the sand on a beach, and another stick a mile away, then measured the length and angle of shadow from both, and worked out the earth was round, and the circumference was roughly 24,000 miles - he was right to within a hundred miles! That's some thinking.

The day the sun stood still
"So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the people had revenge upon their enemies" and "the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day" (Joshua 10:13).

OK -
So where do we go from here?

The fundamentalist view
is, of course, that the sun stood still. I find that hard to believe. Although, apparently, cosmologists and astronomers have found an anomaly in computing the orbit of the earth back through time:
http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/hblim/passages/sunstill.htm
hmm ... I still have doubts.

The rationalist view
is, on the other hand, that the Bible is all myth and fable. So none of it is true.

But the above is a fundamentalism of a different stripe.

The Catholic view
is that the Bible is inspired by God and written by man, and it conveys those truths which God wants to make known with no admixture of error (to paraphrase Dei Verbum - a dogmatic constitution of the Catholic Faith)

What the Church has done has accepted the findings of modern science - literary criticism - without throwing the baby out with the bathwater (as the rationalists of the Enlightenment did)

So the Bible contains many literary forms - songs, poems, discourses, dialogues, stories, and employs many literary styles.

Now - being an avid reader of 'war stories' one thing upon which all sources agree is the passage of time in combat - that what seemed, in reflection, to be a frantic few minutes was, in fact, hours ... and what lasted hours actually was but a few moments ... I can read the story of the battle at Gibeon as being a significant engagement and the reference to the sun standing still at Gibeon "until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies" is a poetic reference ... one might have said "there were thousands, we killed and we killed, it just went on and on, there was nothing, just killing, hacking, stabbing, biting, kicking ... like time had stopped, like the world stopped ... like everything stopped, and all there was, God help us, was the killing ... on and on ... I could not believe how many we killed ... I cannot believe that we did all that in just five hours of fighting ... God must have been with us that day, man hasn't the strength in his arms to kill as many as we did ..."

Look at this question another way.

Both the Jews and the Babylonians had a myth of the flood. In the Babylonian version, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the King Gilgamesh becomes dangerously powerful and the gods create a companion to divert him - the consort Enkidu (echoes of the creation myth) - the two set off on a series of adventures so bold that they enrage the gods, who decree that Enkidu must die, and horror-struck Gilgamesh travels to the ends of the earth to seek out the survivor of the Flood, Utnapishtim, who built an ark as instructed by the god Ea, and was granted immortality.

The interview does not go well. Gilgamesh is told that the gods reserve immortality for themselves alone, that he, Utnapishtim, was a special case, for he saved humanity, but Gilgamesh is just a man, and mortal, and destined to die.

Gilgamesh returns home, older, wiser, repents of his ways, lives a virtuous life, and the story ends with the ghost of his lost companion Enkidu laying out in melancholy fashion the fate of man - to die - even he, Gilgamesh, will die ... only the gods live forever.

The message of Utnapishtim - the religious outlook of Babylon, was tragic and fatalistic. The gods were apart from humanity, who interfered on a caprice, or when man annoyed them. The religious activity of humanity is an act of placating the gods.

The Hebrews saw it differently. The God of Isreal is Good, is constant, is unswerving, is just ... He does not change ... so what befalls them is brought about by their own errors - it is divine justice - but that same God forgives - divine mercy - and has made promises that will endure - He is their God, and they are his Chosen People ... He will dwell with them ...

The Hebrew story is of a Covenant - a contract - a promise - no other gods of antiquity engaged in quite such a pact with their people as did the God of the Jews - the Covenant is all that matters, everything that happens turns on that point - the belief that good things come from God as a just reward, and bad things as a just reward, but through it all is a belief that God is Just, and is committed to His creation.

But life in Him ... that was never part of the Covenant, that was not part of the deal. That was the New Covenant in Christ - not just 'a land of milk and honey' but everlasting life in God ... that was something new ... that changed everything ... that inaugurated a 'new humanity', and to do so the old had to overcome the impasse of death - the self-inflicted wound of the Fall - so human nature had to be reconstructed as something that does not cease at death but passes on ... man can't do that, man can't remake his own nature ... only God can do that ... but there's a price ... man has to acknowledge his culpability in the Fall ... a reality has to be faced ... a truth has to be acknowledged ... but man lives in denial of himself, and denied the Messenger, and killed Him ... but God knew that, too, and showed that even in the worst of himself, man is not beyond redemption ... that his salvation is possible ... they too, the ones who drove the very nails through His flesh .... they too are forgiven ...

That's real love.

... and if we think we're so clever now, with iPods and Mars Missions, how come we spend so much, millions upon millions, on cosmetics, on surgery, on therapy, on technology, on anything that will help us to not face up to who and what we are?

And what happens when we get to heaven with our lifted cheeks and glossy hair, smooth skin and Grecian physique, our nipped-and-tucked flesh ... and the angel points to a pile of dead babies, 30,000 of them, just one day's tally ... what excuse will we offer then?

"I didn't know?" And the angel will wonder, "have you been living in a cave?"

Hard questions.

Yes indeed. What changed? God pray the answer is not 'nothing', but God help us, at times it looks that way...

Sorry - it's a Sunday - don't mean to bring anyone down.

Pax

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
"I didn't know?" And the angel will wonder, "have you been living in a cave?"
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That's a darn good question, even if your post does gloss over a lot of times when the church refused to keep up with the times and many suffered...

I think it is time for a lot of us to not work on our faces and public appearances....I'm not referring to people here, but the churches and all of the hype to push whatever political agenda or to make themselves look better in other eyes. It appears billions are being spent on marketing the churches, tis the cave they are living in...
 
wil said:
I think it is time for a lot of us to not work on our faces and public appearances....I'm not referring to people here, but the churches and all of the hype to push whatever political agenda or to make themselves look better in other eyes. It appears billions are being spent on marketing the churches, tis the cave they are living in...
Click to expand...
Wow Wil, something else we agree on:).

The church as a whole(not every individual church) is in a very sad state these days.
 
Blue Jay said:
No one has really answered my question yet, so I'll be more specific about my question. It's long so bear with me. Seems I can't write it out briefly because then people misunderstand.

Okay, so Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins.

a) What is sin?
Who is paying what to whom?

Sin: intentionally doing something you know is wrong

Okay, I never do that but probably most people do since there is this teaching.
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Your definition of sin is flawed. It's just not intentionally doing something you know is wrong. There are sins committed through ignorance:

"If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering." - Leviticus 5:15

Furthermore, there are not only sins of commission (as a result of our actions), but also sins of omission (as a result of what we fail to do).

Sin is really imperfection. To follow this logically, since all the Law and the Prophets are summed up in the two greatest commandments to Love God and Love thy neighbor, then sin is imperfect love. Who can really say that they have loved God perfectly with all their heart, all their mind, all their soul, and all their strength.

But the problem isn't with the acts of the sins themselves (though the consequences of sin are dire), but with the one committing them. Man simply has a sinful nature. There are "good" sinners and there are "bad" sinners, but it makes no difference to a Holy God how good a sinner you are, you are still a sinner.

Our salvation lies not within ourselves, for we cannot change our nature. Though God made man and it was good, the Fall caused us to inherit a sinful nature. It is like we have a computer virus in us that someone else has to purge. God has to change us, fix us. For us to try to change ourselves is a bit like trying to take a bath in dirty water.

Okay. That answers the question about inherent sin. It does not dispose of the sin theology, however.

Jesus died to save people from their sin. Sin absolutely had to exist. WHAT IS SIN? No answer todate.
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See above.

The second part of the problem: Who is paying what to whom?

The man on the cross obviously is the one paying. The Bible makes it out that God is paying i.e. he sacrificed his son exactly like Abraham sacrificed Isaac.

Okay so we have God paying God.
Click to expand...

Here is the fundamental dilemma:

God is Holy, Pure, Righteous, Perfect.

Man is not. We are sinners by nature.

God is Just. Sin has to be judged. Because He is Perfect, no sin can escape that Justice.

Therefore, since Man is a sinner, he must be judged accordingly. Which means we are all doomed.

God is also Merciful, Gracious, and willing to Forgive. God is Perfect Love.

But, how can God reconcile the fact that He is Perfect and Just with the fact that He is also Merciful, Gracious, and willing to forgive?

There is the Paradox.

If God just forgives us, then there is no justice. If God judges us, then there is no forgiveness.

This is where Substitutionary Atonement steps in.

Since Jesus live a sinless, perfect life, being Divine, He bore the justice of our sins on the Cross. He became sin for us (II Cor. 5:21). All of God's judgment fell on Him as the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world. Through Christ, we are no longer enemies toward God. God has a basis for our forgiveness, without compromising His justice.

Paradox solved.
 
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