What does it MEAN to be a Christian?

Luna,

I just slammed that post in without parsing my words. I'm having phone line trouble and was trying to get it posted before my internet connection died again. I didn't mean to be presumptuous, if I had had time to rework my post it would have come out better. For one thing I would have said "a person" instead of "you", because I didn't have you specifically in mind.

I'm really concerned that I'm coming off as intentionally rude. I'm often sarcastic, but that's the way my sense of humor is. It supposed to be funny, damn it! I don't know, maybe it's time for me to move on. I've had nothing but trouble since I've been here. I'm tired of it, and I'm tired of pushing for a freedom of expression that no one else cares about.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Luna,

I just slammed that post in without parsing my words. I'm having phone line trouble and was trying to get it posted before my internet connection died again. I didn't mean to be presumptuous, if I had had time to rework my post it would have come out better. For one thing I would have said "a person" instead of "you", because I didn't have you specifically in mind.

I'm really concerned that I'm coming off as intentionally rude. I'm often sarcastic, but that's the way my sense of humor is. It supposed to be funny, damn it! I don't know, maybe it's time for me to move on. I've had nothing but trouble since I've been here. I'm tired of it, and I'm tired of pushing for a freedom of expression that no one else cares about.

Chris

No worries Chris. I don't read you as rude (well, most of the time anyway--sometimes you are a bit um, raw, for effect, right?). And I don't know what else has gone on because I really have not spent as much time in some of the other forums as I used to.

BTW, I saw your post in the Good Men Hate God thread (what a title!) and so now I think I understand better where you are coming from. But are you not making the point that we can't just read the Bible without some kind of context to help it make sense? Anyway, maybe I'll be getting flamed next for my post over there.

luna
 
lunamoth said:
No worries Chris. I don't read you as rude (well, most of the time anyway--sometimes you are a bit um, raw, for effect, right?). And I don't know what else has gone on because I really have not spent as much time in some of the other forums as I used to.

BTW, I saw your post in the Good Men Hate God thread (what a title!) and so now I think I understand better where you are coming from. But are you not making the point that we can't just read the Bible without some kind of context to help it make sense? Anyway, maybe I'll be getting flamed next for my post over there.

luna

What I'm trying to do is write like I talk. I'm trying to be, in print, the person that I am in real life. In real life I'm a hard workin' blue collar guy with rough hands and a big heart. I smoke, I drink, and I swear like a sailor. I try to keep it toned down a bit here because I'm honestly not trying to offend people, but...I have a filthy, sarcastic sense of humor and it just kinda slips out.

On the Bible study thing: Yes, there's no way to get any depth of meaning out of it without some kind of commentary. But here's the thing: if I'm relying on an outside source of information I've got to place a limitation on myself so that I don't forget that I didn't do the leg work, and I haven't personally verified what I'm accepting. I can't say honestly that I know something when I've merely accepted someone's scholarly opinion. And if I don't do any of the leg work, but just accept a conveniently boxed set of opinions, then I really don't know anything. And, if I'm unwilling to admit to myself that I don't really know, but substitute "faith" for my lack of knowlege, then I'm really all screwed up. So, I think you (a person) have to just be a bit humble and honest about what you do and don't really know, and a bit cautious about accepting grand theological schemes.

I want to hit on something you said in your earlier post. That when you read the Bible without preconceptions it was confusing, contradictory, silly...etc., but that when you applied Christian theology it made sense. My experience is that applying the Christian theology seems to smooth things out at first, but then when you look at it closer the cracks start to reappear. For one thing, it doesn't make sense to discount the Jewish point of view about their own scriptures. Secondly, in order to get at what's really going on in the OT you (a person) have to immerse yourself in the historical context. At the very least you've got to have a map of the ancient world and have some understanding of who the nations and peoples of that world were. What the socio-political scene was...etc. You've got to try to get into the author's heads and look out of their eyes upon their world.

So really, you have to rely on commentary, but you also have to make a pretty sizable personal effort to understand the context of what you're reading. And even at that you (a person) still have to be honest about what you know and don't know.

Losing my train of thought...

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
What I'm trying to do is write like I talk. I'm trying to be, in print, the person that I am in real life. In real life I'm a hard workin' blue collar guy with rough hands and a big heart. I smoke, I drink, and I swear like a sailor. I try to keep it toned down a bit here because I'm honestly not trying to offend people, but...I have a filthy, sarcastic sense of humor and it just kinda slips out.

On the Bible study thing: Yes, there's no way to get any depth of meaning out of it without some kind of commentary. But here's the thing: if I'm relying on an outside source of information I've got to place a limitation on myself so that I don't forget that I didn't do the leg work, and I haven't personally verified what I'm accepting. I can't say honestly that I know something when I've merely accepted someone's scholarly opinion. And if I don't do any of the leg work, but just accept a conveniently boxed set of opinions, then I really don't know anything. And, if I'm unwilling to admit to myself that I don't really know, but substitute "faith" for my lack of knowlege, then I'm really all screwed up. So, I think you (a person) have to just be a bit humble and honest about what you do and don't really know, and a bit cautious about accepting grand theological schemes.

I want to hit on something you said in your earlier post. That when you read the Bible without preconceptions it was confusing, contradictory, silly...etc., but that when you applied Christian theology it made sense. My experience is that applying the Christian theology seems to smooth things out at first, but then when you look at it closer the cracks start to reappear. For one thing, it doesn't make sense to discount the Jewish point of view about their own scriptures. Secondly, in order to get at what's really going on in the OT you (a person) have to immerse yourself in the historical context. At the very least you've got to have a map of the ancient world and have some understanding of who the nations and peoples of that world were. What the socio-political scene was...etc. You've got to try to get into the author's heads and look out of their eyes upon their world.

So really, you have to rely on commentary, but you also have to make a pretty sizable personal effort to understand the context of what you're reading. And even at that you (a person) still have to be honest about what you know and don't know.

Losing my train of thought...

Chris

I think we are on the same page here Chris. Since you are replying to me though I'll say that I do not discount the Jewish POV for their own scriptures! I think that we, or at least I, as a Christian, go back and re-read the OT in the light Christ after first accepting Christ. Yes, to Christians the OT lays the foundation for, and for us points to, Christ. But this in no way means that the Jews do not understand their own scriptures! or are 'missing' Christ in them. I think that is not only very presumptuous and rude, but does outright violence to the Jewish people and religion. There is no way to see Christ in the OT until after you accept the Christ of the NT.
 
Wow. It occured to me that when Jesus taught the disciples, and the multitude for that matter, even when berating the scribes and Pharisees, He was speaking to people who were totally immersed in the Hebrew scriptures.

After being in the evangelical circle for so long, and disillusioned and dispaired by the prospect that those who didn't hold to my "brand" of salvation were doomed, I did the very thing you (Lunamoth, not a person) have suggested and reread parts of the OT and NT from a Jewish perspective. And I came away with a quite a different perspective.

I suppose we evangelists have tried to make things too simplistic in trying to "Romans Road" someone into "accepting Christ". While we have had an honest zeal for people to get saved, I think our approach is flawed, simply because we are trying to work backwards from the "church" side, rather than establishing a solid basis in the same Hebrew scriptures in which the very early church were so familiar.

Without a backdrop of a Jewish perspective, how can we possible really understand what was happening in the 1st Century Israel? Instead, we have a Gentilized version of the Gospel.

They say that the NT is the OT revealed and that the OT is the NT concealed. But I would contend that they both reveal each other. They are complimental to understanding the whole message of God and anything less produces a hazy view of biblical truth.

My studies have given me a deeper understanding of this business of savlation that extends well beyong the conventional and simplistic "sinner's prayer" approach that has been so familiar to me. Salvation is not the end, but the means toward an end. God is not merely interested in saving us as much as He is interested in comforming us into the image of His Son, through the Spirit. For Christ is the example of an unfallen Adam that was God's original intent for us before we fell from grace. To return to that pre-fallen state, we must be changed wholly, not just in the forgiveness of our sins, but in the restoration of our very nature. God has to reshape our bent-up, crushed pipecleaner form back into proper form. It's not just about trying to be good, but rather becoming butterflies out of our sluggish caterpillar nature.
 
Namaste Dondi,

One of the pieces I woke up to was the rabbi coming to Jesus in the night to discuss something....he was coming from darkness (in the night) to the light (Jesus) How often do we do the same? Only to be shown what was always right in front of us...

2 much fun this path of exploration is...
 
Good post Dondi. Just one thing I'd like to clarify. I would never say that I was able to read the OT from a Jewish perspective. I think the only way I could do that would be with a lot of help from a Rabbi, and much study. I think perhaps you have come closer to that than I, but I don't think we can just pick up the Torah and think we can get the Jewish perspective.

I read the OT from my own perspective, heavily influenced by the Christian perspective.

luna

Dondi said:
I did the very thing you (Lunamoth, not a person) have suggested and reread parts of the OT and NT from a Jewish perspective.
 
lunamoth said:
Good post Dondi. Just one thing I'd like to clarify. I would never say that I was able to read the OT from a Jewish perspective. I think the only way I could do that would be with a lot of help from a Rabbi, and much study. I think perhaps you have come closer to that than I, but I don't think we can just pick up the Torah and think we can get the Jewish perspective.

I read the OT from my own perspective, heavily influenced by the Christian perspective.

luna

What I meant by reading from a Jewish perspective wasn't meant to imply that we should delve into Rabbinical studies of the Torah, but rather gaining a solid background of the OT before considering what is being taught in the NT, that's all. This will deepen one's understanding of the Law and the oracles of God and become less confused by some of the more difficult parables and sayings of Jesus. For example, I used to struggle with the Faith vs Works argument until I really read into the background of Abraham who was used in the discussion in Romans 4 (faith apart from the works of the Law) and James 2 (faith with works). Once I realized that the faith of Abraham occurred 400 years before the Law of Moses, it became easy to reconcile the seeming discrepancy.
 
lunamoth said:
Which is exactly the point of Christians who point out that if you throw out the foundational Christian beliefs, i.e., the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the Trinity, then the name 'Christian' becomes pretty much meaningless. Yet when they point this out everyone jumps on them as being judgemental and lacking in tolerance. :rolleyes:

2 c,
luna

I guess the real disagreement between Christians is (or should be) what did Jesus really believe. Otherwise, there seems to be no reason to argue from a "Christian" point of view.
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I just want to point out, again, that Christian is also an ethnicity. Anyone who celebrates Christmas is ethnically Christian. What I find interesting is all the hubbub over drawing lines around who or what is Christian. It's so goofy, shallow, and self serving, and so obviously masks a deep sense of insecurity. I don't understand why people have such a keen interest in banging that drum all day.

Chris

China (et al),
Thought you'd enjoy this...

Ethnic Christianity

[SIZE=+1]Middle Class Rage[/SIZE]
By Monica Lesmerises
I'm a mutt. One-eighth German, French, shicksa, Slovakian, blonde, Yankee, whitey, and townie. Which makes me hard-pressed to identify with an ethnicity. I once told someone I was half-Catholic. They laughed: "That's like being half-vegetarian." If someone can be half-Jewish, why can't I be half-Catholic?
People often tell me Judaism is a race, an ethnicity, or a people, while Christianity is just a religion. I'm not taking issue with the first part. But as a semi-practicing Methodist who was baptized Catholic, I'd like to out myself right now as an ethnic Christian.
I've heard many Jewish students say that they identify with Jewish culture, but are less tied to the dogma. In fact, as far as I gather, Jews are much less likely to attend a weekly service than Protestants, and certainly less likely than Catholics. However, these same students remain adamant about marrying within the religion, and staunch about wanting to raise their children Jewish.
I am the same way. Since entering college, I rarely attend church other than on holidays, and then mostly in my home town. I have no interest in proselytizing or in choosing my social group based on religion. But I do find a certain bond with other Christians with similar values gained from church, and similar goals for our future in the religion.
I love my church most for being an unconditional community. Perhaps I feel that way more strongly because I don't have a specific ethnic community. But knowing that there will always be a group of people, beyond my family and close friends,with whom I will feel a familial bond is one of the most comforting feelings I know.
Church is a comforting routine of seeing the same people, singing the same songs and reciting the same prayers I've known since childhood. I love seeing the crayon drawings of what the second graders are giving up for Lent. (My favorite is "root beer on Thursdays.") The Alpha-Bit Bible verses I glued and shellacked onto a popsicle-stick background at summer Bible school still decorate my house--it's just about the best medium for a Bible verse I can think of. And though I cowered at the sight of my trigonometry teacher in high school, we'd sit in the same pew and exchange the "sign of peace" on Sundays.
On a larger scale, I know that if people I love are sick or needing help, there is a congregation of hundreds of people who will all pray for me. I do not find comfort in this phenomenon because I think God will answer prayers, solve problems, or listen more because there are 500 people praying rather than two. But it is an awesome feeling to knowthat I have, outside of my friends and family, a community of 500 people who will unconditionally care.
For me, Christianity is more about people than about Jesus. And I don't consider it blasphemy to say so--I think it is a widespread sentiment among us closet Christians.
I can be a Christian and still think that crusading against premarital sex (not unprotected or casual sex, mind you) is about the most worthless cause out there. Maybe a lot of Christians disagree. But other religions have a spectrum of believers too, and not keeping kosher, or wearing slacks, doesn't make others less part of their religious groups.
Also, the fact that Christianity happens to be a more common and "user-friendly" religion (as a Jewish friend of mine calls it) doesn't make it less precious. One of the things I most admire about my religion is that it welcomes all with open arms. Most of us Christians are used to being in the massive majority. But at Yale, we probably are not even a plurality. I think it's a wonderful thing, and I have learned a lot about other religions since coming here.
As a part of this rich diversity, I've also finally learned that there is something about me--a Christian "mutt"--that is distinct and valuable.
 
Prober said:
China (et al),
Thought you'd enjoy this...

Ethnic Christianity

[SIZE=+1]Middle Class Rage[/SIZE]
By Monica Lesmerises
I'm a mutt. One-eighth German, French, shicksa, Slovakian, blonde, Yankee, whitey, and townie. Which makes me hard-pressed to identify with an ethnicity. I once told someone I was half-Catholic. They laughed: "That's like being half-vegetarian." If someone can be half-Jewish, why can't I be half-Catholic?
People often tell me Judaism is a race, an ethnicity, or a people, while Christianity is just a religion. I'm not taking issue with the first part. But as a semi-practicing Methodist who was baptized Catholic, I'd like to out myself right now as an ethnic Christian.
I've heard many Jewish students say that they identify with Jewish culture, but are less tied to the dogma. In fact, as far as I gather, Jews are much less likely to attend a weekly service than Protestants, and certainly less likely than Catholics. However, these same students remain adamant about marrying within the religion, and staunch about wanting to raise their children Jewish.
I am the same way. Since entering college, I rarely attend church other than on holidays, and then mostly in my home town. I have no interest in proselytizing or in choosing my social group based on religion. But I do find a certain bond with other Christians with similar values gained from church, and similar goals for our future in the religion.
I love my church most for being an unconditional community. Perhaps I feel that way more strongly because I don't have a specific ethnic community. But knowing that there will always be a group of people, beyond my family and close friends,with whom I will feel a familial bond is one of the most comforting feelings I know.
Church is a comforting routine of seeing the same people, singing the same songs and reciting the same prayers I've known since childhood. I love seeing the crayon drawings of what the second graders are giving up for Lent. (My favorite is "root beer on Thursdays.") The Alpha-Bit Bible verses I glued and shellacked onto a popsicle-stick background at summer Bible school still decorate my house--it's just about the best medium for a Bible verse I can think of. And though I cowered at the sight of my trigonometry teacher in high school, we'd sit in the same pew and exchange the "sign of peace" on Sundays.
On a larger scale, I know that if people I love are sick or needing help, there is a congregation of hundreds of people who will all pray for me. I do not find comfort in this phenomenon because I think God will answer prayers, solve problems, or listen more because there are 500 people praying rather than two. But it is an awesome feeling to knowthat I have, outside of my friends and family, a community of 500 people who will unconditionally care.
For me, Christianity is more about people than about Jesus. And I don't consider it blasphemy to say so--I think it is a widespread sentiment among us closet Christians.
I can be a Christian and still think that crusading against premarital sex (not unprotected or casual sex, mind you) is about the most worthless cause out there. Maybe a lot of Christians disagree. But other religions have a spectrum of believers too, and not keeping kosher, or wearing slacks, doesn't make others less part of their religious groups.
Also, the fact that Christianity happens to be a more common and "user-friendly" religion (as a Jewish friend of mine calls it) doesn't make it less precious. One of the things I most admire about my religion is that it welcomes all with open arms. Most of us Christians are used to being in the massive majority. But at Yale, we probably are not even a plurality. I think it's a wonderful thing, and I have learned a lot about other religions since coming here.
As a part of this rich diversity, I've also finally learned that there is something about me--a Christian "mutt"--that is distinct and valuable.

Thanks Mr. Prober! I guess I am going to have to reconsider my postion on this label of Christain ethnicity.

luna
 
lunamoth said:
Thanks Mr. Prober! I guess I am going to have to reconsider my postion on this label of Christain ethnicity.

luna

It's an interesting thought and should make for some intriguing conversation.

I wouldn't describe myself that way, but I like hearing all sides.

P.S. Mr. Prober sounds kind of clinical:)

How about...

Mark
 
Prober said:
P.S. Mr. Prober sounds kind of clinical:)

How about...

Mark

I was referring to that one evening when you first joined...China cat Chris called you Mr. Prober and we (you included) had a short joke about it then (do you recall?). But Mark is very nice. :)

Ms. Moth aka Laurie
 
lunamoth said:
I was referring to that one evening when you first joined...China cat Chris called you Mr. Prober and we (you included) had a short joke about it then (do you recall?). But Mark is very nice. :)

Ms. Moth aka Laurie

Yes, I do.:) Chris is a funny guy, he make me raf.

It's nice to be a little more familiar!
 
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