Blessings

[Postmaster]

for instance religious martyrs

 

[Postmaster]

Here's my personal philosophy I'm going to share with you.The outcome of someones life depends on 3 important factors. Incestral background, Virtue and Ambition.

 

[arthra]

Ummm...I'd suggest that "bad things" can actually be good things in the long run as seen from different perspectives.. Our perspectives are usually warped by our personal agendas and experiences.

- Art

 

[arthra]

Ummm...I'd suggest that "bad things" can actually be good things in the long run as seen from different perspectives.. Our perspectives are usually warped by our personal agendas and experiences.

- Art

 

[Thomas]

... and because we live in a fallen world. Bad things happen 'cos bad things happen.

Jesus never said 'believe in me and bad things won't happen' - He said 'I'll be there with you, whetever happens,' which is significantly different and which no 'god' had ever said before.

Something to think about...

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Yo-Eleven-11

Originally Posted by Thomas (OPT)
If one wanted 'everything' then one would not be worthy of the blessing.

Y-11-11:
We all have wants and needs and to deny that you don't want or need is denying your humanity.

Reply:
And the purpose of ascesic is? Of detachment? Of putting your neighbour first? Of morality, of virtue?

To deny our wants and needs are the foundations of sanctity. Otherwise we might as well go and rut in the gutter like dogs?

The question depends whether our wants and needs rise from our 'natural nature', which I suggest could survive quite happily with:
Food ... Comfort (of companionship) ... Shelter ... Warmth ...
or whether they arise from the disordered passions of an unrestrained volative nature.

OPT:
Then again, if one was spiritually and metally mature, one wouldn't want in a qualitative or materialistic sense.

Y-11-11:
Grown people still find the need to "play" every now and then.
The greater the mind, the greater the need for play.

Reply:
And take delight in simple things ...

It depends what you mean by 'play'? When St Francis of Asissi was on an important mission, his companion went missing, and could not be found. "I know where he will be," the saint said, "where do the children play?" and Br. Leo was found playing with the village children. One of the party went to berate the brother, but Francis intervened, "if there were a hundred more like him, the world would be saved for Christ."

OPT:
The story goes that St Thomas Aquinas was in prayer before the Blessed Sacramant when Jesus asked "What do you want of me?" to which Thomas replied "You Lord, only you."

Y-11-11:
Im not really following your answer, but it seems that you may be saying that everything you want is "GOD". I may be wrong though.
So would you be able to handle it if GOD gave you "GOD"?

Reply:
Yes. We were made for Union with the Divine.

OPT:
The Beatitudes answers this question, I think...

Y-11-11
What exactly is a "Beatitude?

Reply:
Everything our heart desires ... if only we knew ...

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Quahom -

Well I'm into my second of five years of my BA(Divinity) Degree here in the UK.

It's a Distance Learning course run by the Maryvale Institute - The site of Maryvale has been in Catholic occupation since the Middle Ages. In 1974 it became the home of the first Seminary to open in England after the Reformation. The Seminary moved to a bigger building and in 1846 John Henry Newman and his community who had recently been received into the Church were granted the house as a place of retreat and study. It was Newman who gave it the name 'Maryvale' after St Philip Neri's church in Rome, and it is specified in the Papal Brief as the location of the first English Oratory of St Philip in 1848.

The schedule is back-breaking, one essay a month (3,500 words), 4 exams a year. Each essay is accompanied by a reading list as long as your arm, and each book's as thick as your fist!

We're looking at the Old Testament this year ... being Roman Catholic it's all new to me!

So my time is limited - but I pop in when I can.

Thomas
Big handshakes and back-slapping bear hugs across the water to you (btw - my better half reckons the back-slapping bit is just men convincing ourselves we're not cuddling!)

 

[Quahom1]

Big handshakes and back-slapping bear hugs across the water to you (btw - my better half reckons the back-slapping bit is just men convincing ourselves we're not cuddling!)

LOL, wise woman.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Originally Posted by Thomas (OPT)
If one wanted 'everything' then one would not be worthy of the blessing.

Y-11-11:
We all have wants and needs and to deny that you don't want or need is denying your humanity.

Reply:
And the purpose of ascesic is? Of detachment? Of putting your neighbour first? Of morality, of virtue?

The practice of ascetic is thought by "some" to purify the soul which comes through denial of material things which may cause detachment. This is an act of "man" tring to look as good to GOD as he possible can. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". I wonder why Jesus said that? Putting your neighbor first is only as good as your "true" intentions. "Man's "morality" is subjective. Slavery was thought to be "moral" because it was supposed to be taming the "savages" and making them "civilized" and bringing them to GOD. Guess we all know how that turned out. Simply put, diamonds are made out of coal.


Again, "worthy" is not to be measeured by man. GOD determines whos worthy or not. Actual "purpose" comes from GOD and not man. In other words, their is a time for everything and only GOD can lead you to do what GOD wants.

Wanting and having are not the same thing. As a child you want things and ask for things and may not get everything you want. GOD has a purpose for all, and asking for what you want does not make one more or less "worthy" it just makes you honest with GOD.

To deny our wants and needs are the foundations of sanctity. Otherwise we might as well go and rut in the gutter like dogs?

The question depends whether our wants and needs rise from our 'natural nature', which I suggest could survive quite happily with:
Food ... Comfort (of companionship) ... Shelter ... Warmth ...
or whether they arise from the disordered passions of an unrestrained volative nature.

To "deny" is to be un-truthful. To "admit" is to begin to a journey of understanding your faults and asking GOD to help you with them.
The question is not whether needs arise from either source mentioned above, it's how to handle them when they do arise.

OPT:
Then again, if one was spiritually and metally mature, one wouldn't want in a qualitative or materialistic sense.

Y-11-11:
Grown people still find the need to "play" every now and then.
The greater the mind, the greater the need for play.

Reply:
And take delight in simple things ...

It depends what you mean by 'play'? When St Francis of Asissi was on an important mission, his companion went missing, and could not be found. "I know where he will be," the saint said, "where do the children play?" and Br. Leo was found playing with the village children. One of the party went to berate the brother, but Francis intervened, "if there were a hundred more like him, the world would be saved for Christ."

OPT:
The story goes that St Thomas Aquinas was in prayer before the Blessed Sacramant when Jesus asked "What do you want of me?" to which Thomas replied "You Lord, only you."

Y-11-11:
Im not really following your answer, but it seems that you may be saying that everything you want is "GOD". I may be wrong though.
So would you be able to handle it if GOD gave you "GOD"?

Reply:
Yes. We were made for Union with the Divine.

OPT:
The Beatitudes answers this question, I think...

Y-11-11
What exactly is a "Beatitude?

Reply:
Everything our heart desires ... if only we knew ...



Thomas

Should have got the dictionary for that one. Heck even googled it.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

[SIZE=+2] "Blessed are the poor in spirit, [/SIZE][SIZE=+2]
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]Gospel of Matthew 5:3-10 [/SIZE]

​

ok Dor, could you make that a little bigger please?

 

[Thomas]

The practice of ascetic is thought by "some" to purify the soul which comes through denial of material things which may cause detachment.

Not sure if that's in the right order, and I would suggest the practice of asceticism is universal, and not limited to religion. I don't know of any who teach the opposite - although within every tradition there have been those who sought to pervert it.

The purification of the soul comes by the stilling of every human passion to allow the transcendant to be reflected within that stillness of being - purgation - illumination - union: "be still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10).

This is an act of "man" tring to look as good to GOD as he possible can.

There's nowt wrong with that. I think it's the Sufis who say 'act as if God is watching your every move' ... or was that my Sunday School guilt trip? Whatever, the Sufi does say 'God is closer than your jugular vein'.

I think its the fruit of experience and reflection ... a growing in wisdom ...

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone". I wonder why Jesus said that?

I think the shuffling silence that followed answers that question!

Putting your neighbor first is only as good as your "true" intentions.

Indeed. You can't pull the woool over God's eyes.

There seems to be an implication that someone's trying to fool someone? Am I missing a point?

"Man's "morality" is subjective.

Not entirely. The Sacred Scriptures of every tradition are held to be 'given' from above, and underlie notions of morality ...

Slavery was thought to be "moral" because it was supposed to be taming the "savages" and making them "civilized" and bringing them to GOD. Guess we all know how that turned out.

So is the export of democracy and freedom at gunpoint (oops, a tad political) but there's a 'moral majority' out there who see it as a good thing ... I would suggest a little more conscience-searching against belief, would answer that question. As ever, it's not what you do, it's why you do it...

Isn't that view of morality progressive? Each generation is more moral than the one before - in which case 'we're all doomed!' and only the last generation will stand half a chance?

Simply put, diamonds are made out of coal.

Indeedy!

To "deny" is to be un-truthful. To "admit" is to begin to a journey of understanding your faults and asking GOD to help you with them. The question is not whether needs arise from either source mentioned above, it's how to handle them when they do arise.

How you handle them is either give in, or hold out - if it's the latter, that's what I meant by 'deny' (as in refuse, not as in lie about them)

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

bump

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

*bip*

I couldn't access pg. 3, so...

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[Thomas]

Bop!

I had the same problem.

Thomas

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Not sure if that's in the right order, and I would suggest the practice of asceticism is universal, and not limited to religion. I don't know of any who teach the opposite - although within every tradition there have been those who sought to pervert it.).

If im not mistaken, denial comes before detachment. Matthew 19:27
Mark 10:28. I could be mistaken though.

Religion was never an issue here.
The practice of ascetic is thought by "some" to purify the soul which comes through denial of material things which may cause detachment.
The word "some" goes beyond religion I do believe. I could be mistaken though.

True, perversion of practice comes in many forms, not just in religion. Look at the judicial system in any country and see how easily it can be swayed in some matters of conscious.

The purification of the soul comes by the stilling of every human passion to allow the transcendant to be reflected within that stillness of being - purgation - illumination - union: "be still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10).

Stillness only comes by asking GOD for it, not by our own strength.
Proverbs 3:5-6

There's nowt wrong with that. I think it's the Sufis who say 'act as if God is watching your every move' ... or was that my Sunday School guilt trip? Whatever, the Sufi does say 'God is closer than your jugular vein'

I think its the fruit of experience and reflection ... a growing in wisdom ....).

Ask a pregnant about how close GOD can be.

I think the shuffling silence that followed answers that question!.).

You got that right.

Indeed. You can't pull the woool over God's eyes..).

Yep

There seems to be an implication that someone's trying to fool someone? Am I missing a point?.).

No implications, just an exercise in understanding one anothers points of view. The point may have been missed. To gather info on if you "personally" could handle if GOD blessed you with everything you wanted. The extra info is helpful and hopefully will be beneficial to all. The "KISS" principle I have found works extremely well in matters such as this.

Not entirely. The Sacred Scriptures of every tradition are held to be 'given' from above, and underlie notions of morality ... .).

"Notions" is the opertative word here.

So is the export of democracy and freedom at gunpoint (oops, a tad political) but there's a 'moral majority' out there who see it as a good thing ... I would suggest a little more conscience-searching against belief, would answer that question. As ever, it's not what you do, it's why you do it....).

Exporting democracy at "gun point" is an excellent example of moral "notions"
I think the old saying goes: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Isn't that view of morality progressive? Each generation is more moral than the one before - in which case 'we're all doomed!' and only the last generation will stand half a chance?.).

Progressive morality may be a misnomer in this case, but, that may be a topic for another thread entirely.

How you handle them is either give in, or hold out - if it's the latter, that's what I meant by 'deny' (as in refuse, not as in lie about them)

Understood.

 

[Blue Jay]

If God gave me everything I want...I wouldn't be here. He'd be showing me the wonders of the universe...

...but now is not the time.

Hey Q, as you're bobbing tempest tossed out in the middle of the ocean with only the sky above and the waves below...what more do you want? If that's not enough excitement, throw in a life or death crisis that depends on your skill to solve.

I always imagine that between the sky and the waves is about as close to the universe as one could wish to get. Take that from a person who has barely been from home because God's nature is just so wonderful right here at home.

 

[Quahom1]

Hey Q, as you're bobbing tempest tossed out in the middle of the ocean with only the sky above and the waves below...what more do you want? If that's not enough excitement, throw in a life or death crisis that depends on your skill to solve.

I always imagine that between the sky and the waves is about as close to the universe as one could wish to get. Take that from a person who has barely been from home because God's nature is just so wonderful right here at home.

To the sea, to the sea, my footfalls and pathways seem to lead me ever back...to the sea.

 

[Blue Jay]

Yo-Eleven said:


<If GOD blessed you with everything you ever wanted, (all your heart and soul desires all at once), could you handle it?>

This answer is probably not terribly popular, but God has blessed me with far more than I even thought to ask or wish for and I think I am handling it just fine. My observation of humans in general suggests that those who have much feel about the same as those with less than a quarter of what they have. It seems to be human tendency to take their situation for granted. Inner peace is what matters, whether one has much or little. If basic needs are not met then there will be problems. Basic needs goes beyond food, clothing, and shelter. We also have emotional needs, and intellectual needs that demand being met when survival needs are met. What good is life if we have adequate food and clothing and shelter to keep us alive and physically well if life has no meaning—no challenges of any sort? No problems to solve, no pleasures to be satisfied, no questions to ask, no accomplishes or responsibilities to accomplish? Pretty blah, right? Right.

Dor said:


<If God gave me everything I think I want, I have a very strong feeling that some of it would not truly bless me.>

Put it this way. God would not stop with giving ONLY what you wish for. A good God would fill in those gaps that you hadn’t thought to ask for.

Paladin said:

<I seem to remember an old Arab curse that went: "may you get what you wish for" :0)>

Well, it stands to reason that if one is in a position where another wishes to curse one, then perhaps the present desires are not very balanced. What we wish for in our more lucid moments probably is not all that ridiculous. The highest thing I wish for myself is to enjoy life and be happy. I have been granted that. Thus, my goal is to maintain this level of satisfaction.

<I have found that within Maslows model my needs have been more than met.>

Hey! You’re speaking my language. This is what I’ve been getting at.

Snoopy said:

<When people get something like a massive money windfall>

I don’t think this gets at the heart of what we wish for. It’s just plain materialistic and what we wish for in our deepest being is not material goods.

 

[Snoopy]

Snoopy said:

<When people get something like a massive money windfall>

I don’t think this gets at the heart of what we wish for. It’s just plain materialistic and what we wish for in our deepest being is not material goods.

Hi Blue Jay,

I think quite a lot of people would take "all their desires to be granted" as involving a good deal of material things, would it not? I'm not recommending that as the path of true happiness, just my observation. Or maybe I live in too much of a consumer society to see the deeper feelings of most people.

Snoopy.

 

[Blue Jay]

Hi Blue Jay,

I think quite a lot of people would take "all their desires to be granted" as involving a good deal of material things, would it not?

On the conscious level, yes. I just meant that deep down what people really want has nothing to do with material things. I think that is the level God works on. I also think that this is why, when we focus on real needs as Paladin explained per Maslow, we do get all we wish for, and more, and we are capable of handling it.

Somehow, no more insight is given at a time than the individual can handle. Yes, I've come across stories of people who had quite a struggle integrating a burst of insight. I personally have had to struggle with certain insights for years.

This does not mean that it put me out of commission for all that time; just that it was something I was working on as I traveled, to use Virtual Cliff's analogy of "the road."

Maybe this is not "handling it" if we have to work so long on it. I just figure if it does not put us out of commission so that we feel paralyzed and can't function, then we are coping okay. But others might think differently.

I'm not recommending that as the path of true happiness, just my observation. Or maybe I live in too much of a consumer society to see the deeper feelings of most people.

Snoopy.

Another possibility is that I am too idealistic.