Turn the Other Cheek

[Quahom1]

Truly this is the gauntlet laid down.

Love your enemies.

Non-violence....tis the season right now as Path expressed we see very few publicly standing up and saying it from the mountain....but the most interesting thing is...we know their names!!...Jesus, Martin Luther King, Ghandhi.

I know there are more Mother Teresa, St Thomas Aquinas, folks who stood right in the middle of strife and made a difference without picking up a weapon.

Today is the day, should we choose it. It is always our choice.

Today, 150 Iraqis were killed, because there are those that do not care what the Iraqis want. Four US servicemen were killed trying to protect them...

you do the math.

I got two sons there. One a medic and one in special forces somewhere. They are all I've got (including the lineage I might be continued by). You know what the greatest BEEF the military over there has?

WHY ISN'T THE HOMELAND BACKING US UP? what the hell is up with congress? What a bunch of wishiwashies ass holes...

That is the ONLY question they have...and one you have to answer...not "when are we coming home..."

If ever a citizenry was ever out of sync with their military, the US is a perfect example...dumb, dumb, dumb, stupid, arrogant, idiots.

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

This is why, though I am a pacifist, I respect those who aren't. I can't answer for what they feel called by God to do, and I respect and am grateful for their following of their own path, even if it is not mine.

Recently I caught a PBS special in which WWII veterans from all countries got together to discuss. It was so touching to see Germans, Japanese, British, Americans... all together and shedding tears over the same memories of losing loved ones, fellow soldiers... After all these years, men on both sides shed tears over having to kill others, and explained they never could really get over it. It just makes no sense...

If people would simply focus on love and service to God and others, we wouldn't get into these situations. It seems so simple to me... I can't help but wonder at how hellish humanity chooses to make life when underneath it all is the Kingdom of God just waiting to be embraced...

I do pray, Q, for peace in every person's heart- peace with God, with themselves, with other humans, and with all beings. I do believe that one day, no one will feel called to fight... and I pray in the meantime that the wonders of the universe heal the often painful reality of what humans choose to make of it.

There will come a day, when this country will either thank God for the soldiers and sailors and airmen they have, for beating back the enemy, or
will curse their stupidity for undermining the same...this is only the beginning Path.

v/r

Joshua

 

[pfw]

Today, 150 Iraqis were killed, because there are those that do not care what the Iraqis want. Four US servicemen were killed trying to protect them...

you do the math.

I got two sons there. One a medic and one in special forces somewhere. They are all I've got (including the lineage I might be continued by). You know what the greatest BEEF the military over there has?

WHY ISN'T THE HOMELAND BACKING US UP? what the hell is up with congress? What a bunch of wishiwashies ass holes...

That is the ONLY question they have...and one you have to answer...not "when are we coming home..."

If ever a citizenry was ever out of sync with their military, the US is a perfect example...dumb, dumb, dumb, stupid, arrogant, idiots.

Joshua

I feel for you and the sevice men and women in Iraq- talking as some one from England I disagree with the lies my Government told me to get this country involved but involved we are. (I realise this is going off track). I don't think the military should be blamed for what they are trying to do over there- they should be supported and given all the help they need. I can't help feeling that if America and the UK had done the job properly the first time 'round this war would have been unnecissary but... It's a painful truth that in this world sometime the only way to stop violence and injustice is with greater violence- until the word changes we are all going to need a millitary. I don't think Jesus was talking about countries or nations- he was speaking to individuals and millitary service didn't seem to be a reason for not helping someone. Did he not heal a Centurians servant because of that mans great faith? The individual was more important than anything else, yes he may have wanted to change the world but he did it one person at a time... That's my thoughts, sorry to have intruded.

 

[Prober]

It's a painful truth that in this world sometime the only way to stop violence and injustice is with greater violence- until the word changes we are all going to need a millitary.

I don't believe this (just my opinion). I believe in the power of the individual to change his world by standing up for what he believes in.

Having said that, I do not fault the honest intention of those who believe otherwise.

 

[pfw]

I don't believe this (just my opinion). I believe in the power of the individual to change his world by standing up for what he believes in.

Having said that, I do not fault the honest intention of those who believe otherwise.

Hey, we both have differing opinions and I'm not going to take offense to that and you've expressed yourself with respect and consideration. I just hope I'm doing the same. I believe the world can, eventually, be changed and any suggestions on how to speed that up.... It is even possible for one man to stand against an army- Ghandi managed it (not alone, but you know what I mean). It worked against the British Empire-would it have worked against say the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany for example? The same tactik failed miserably against China not so long ago. The sad truth is against some people (individual) and some nations (global) they would see it as a weakness to either be exploited or crushed. Using the individual as an example- you can either allow them to walk all over you, let them put you in hospital or defend yourself- maybe that's the first lesson they need to see the error of their ways?(It worked on me).

 

[Prober]

op

Hey, we both have differing opinions and I'm not going to take offense to that and you've expressed yourself with respect and consideration. I just hope I'm doing the same. I believe the world can, eventually, be changed and any suggestions on how to speed that up.... It is even possible for one man to stand against an army- Ghandi managed it (not alone, but you know what I mean). It worked against the British Empire-would it have worked against say the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany for example? The same tactik failed miserably against China not so long ago. The sad truth is against some people (individual) and some nations (global) they would see it as a weakness to either be exploited or crushed. Using the individual as an example- you can either allow them to walk all over you, let them put you in hospital or defend yourself- maybe that's the first lesson they need to see the error of their ways?(It worked on me).

(Hope someone hasn't put you in the hospital. if so, do tell...)

Yeah, I was thinking of Gandhi...and that guy who stood up against the tanks in Tienamen (sp) Square. I don't know what happened to him, but his example was replayed for millions on TV.

Here's how I see it...

If I die doing what G-d wants me to do, He'll take care of me and if I don't die - no problem. If G-d is for us, who can be against us?

We must love our enemies (and anyone else with whom we disagree) as well as our freinds.

G-d makes everything beautiful in His time.

(Sounds kinda Polyannaish doesn't it)?

 

[pfw]

Nope, I've not been put in hospital. But when I was younger I was a vicious little ##########. Plenty of people stood up to me but it took 1 guy I didn't expect it from to turn around and punch me in the face to make me START thinking about what I was doing and why. His 1 act of violence, at that time, was a better lesson and example for me than a thousand passifists 'leading by example'- at that time I'd have enjoyed stamping on them. It's a contencious and complicated subject, no two people are going to respond exactly the same to the same experiance and I don't think there's 1 correct answer. (By the way, what's Polyannaish- excuse my ignorance but I can only change that by asking questions.)

 

[Prober]

His 1 act of violence, at that time, was a better lesson and example for me than a thousand passifists 'leading by example'
(By the way, what's Polyannaish- excuse my ignorance but I can only change that by asking questions.)

Maybe that's like the master whacking the student in the head at exactly the right time to facillitate enlightenment.

"Pollyanna" was a Disney movie with a person that always looked for the best in everything.

p.s. I tend to be idealistic...

 

[path_of_one]

Today, 150 Iraqis were killed, because there are those that do not care what the Iraqis want. Four US servicemen were killed trying to protect them...

you do the math.

I got two sons there. One a medic and one in special forces somewhere. They are all I've got (including the lineage I might be continued by). You know what the greatest BEEF the military over there has?

WHY ISN'T THE HOMELAND BACKING US UP? what the hell is up with congress? What a bunch of wishiwashies ass holes...

That is the ONLY question they have...and one you have to answer...not "when are we coming home..."

If ever a citizenry was ever out of sync with their military, the US is a perfect example...dumb, dumb, dumb, stupid, arrogant, idiots.

Joshua

I agree that our politicians are primarily in it for themselves and go with whatever is popular at the moment.

That said, I have the answer of why I personally do not back war and violence, and I have not been wishy-washy on the issue. I respect those in the military who are doing what they feel called to do. I disagree with it, but I respect them. However, I know enough about the military to know that it is not all people who are patriotic and honorable in their intentions. It also draws people who just want a paycheck and sometimes people who downright like violence.

The military is not monolithic and I can't support "it," only respect those within it that I believe are doing the best they can to do what they feel is right. And further, I have heard numerous military people in various interviews saying their primary questions are why they were sent to a war they cannot win, with little strategy to get them out at this point. I don't think all of them feel that support from the citizenry is keeping them there.

Perhaps the citizens are out of step with the military because we didn't get to vote to put them over there. This war has been controversial and supported by only half the population since it began, and some of that half was obviously delusionally thinking it would be easy to put democracy in place in Iraq, because now that it is apparent there is no easy, cheap solution that half is slowly waning. The mistake is not that the citizenry doesn't support the war, it is that the government did not listen to its citizenry. Polls conducted right at the start of the war indicated people as a whole would not be supportive if it lasted more than a year or two. This is a democracy- Bush et al should have listened to the people.

The American public IS often uneducated, but then the decision to invade Iraq was not based on a great deal of education either. In the long run, our reasons for going turned out to be unfounded (as in weapons of mass destruction, etc.) and, as many social scientists predicted, democracy would be incredibly difficult to "give" to a culture that doesn't have the historical precedent and isn't united in wanting it anyway.

Just because some of us (well, more than half of us) disagree with this war, and a smaller percentage of us disagree with ANY war, does not mean we are stupid or arrogant. We have just as much right to our choice and freedom to express it as those who are pro-war. And often, we have just as much educated reasons behind our decision.

Perhaps we should ask why our government chose military actions that they were warned would be unsuccessful, costly, and unpopular. Perhaps it is not the citizenry failing the military, but the government officials that chose to send them into such a situation. I think it begs the question... who is profiting from this war? Who had something to gain?

Let me tell you, the biggest "winners" in this war are not the Iraqis, the military, or the citizens of the U.S. There are some people who are getting rich off this war... who feel it is worth trading human lives for cash. And yet they are frequently perceived as being *supportive* of the military...

 

[pfw]

Never heard of that film- Maybe if everyone could be taught to be Idealistic... I look forwards to future debates and discussions with you as I think we've exhausted this one for our two viewpoints. Peace and regards, Phil

 

[Prober]

Never heard of that film- Maybe if everyone could be taught to be Idealistic... I look forwards to future debates and discussions with you as I think we've exhausted this one for our two viewpoints. Peace and regards, Phil

I also.

 

[path_of_one]

There will come a day, when this country will either thank God for the soldiers and sailors and airmen they have, for beating back the enemy, or
will curse their stupidity for undermining the same...this is only the beginning Path.

v/r

Joshua

I know we think really differently, and that is at the heart of our difference on this matter. I don't believe I am American. I don't see myself as attached to any country. I'm actually pretty incapable of an us vs. them mentality- it just doesn't seem to be possible for me to comprehend.

I don't see enemies. I see people who are desperate, lost, suffering, and poor who come to hate the "United States" because it is the world's symbol of a nation that takes more than its fair share, that has risen by trodding on others (as all colonies did), and that continues to mostly pursue its own interests without regard for the poor worldwide that support our lifestyle.

If this nation were to fall, and it will fall- as all civilizations do eventually- I am still me. I am still loving God. My citizenship is not on earth at all, but in the Kingdom of God. Of course, I try to change the world the best I can to be closer to that Kingdom. But I owe allegiance to none but Christ.

This is not undermining my country. I vote. I obey the laws. That doesn't mean I feel that I should give my allegiance to Bush, any other governing official, or the system as a whole. It's a decent system, and it works OK (far from perfect, but it goes along all right so far), but at the end of the day, it's just another man-made institution. Christ is my King and my Lord, and I am His servant alone. And if I am a gaurdian of anything or anyone, it is the poor and downtrodden and suffering everywhere in the world, as I am called to be. And the protector and steward of this Earth, which I also feel called to be.

Yes, this is only the beginning. But this has been said throughout time in all civilizations. Perhaps it's due to my background in anthropology, but I see the big picture. Civilizations rise, and then they fall. Rise, and fall. And frequently they fall not because of outside invasion, but because of internal strife, inequality, and using up of the earth's resources. In fact, they frequently fall because they overstretch their capacity in terms of resources and military effort.

Ultimately, the U.S. will end. All nations do.

The Kingdom of God alone does not end, and so on that rock I build my foundation of identity.

If this is stupid, so be it. I am what I am, and I have never been one who can fathom national pride or patriotism, or attachment to the lines on maps that humans draw. I don't ask that others be like me, but I have long stopped trying to fit into a cultural shoe that didn't fit and be "American." I'm just Kim/Path... and all I know is that I feel the pain of war... pain that does not end when the war ends... pain that even hundreds of years later remains in the Earth and is held in the memory of places...

It isn't just about nations or even humans to me. It is about recognizing what is not ours to take, and trusting God to protect us.

 

[Prober]

The Kingdom of God alone does not end, and so on that rock I build my foundation of identity.

It isn't just about nations or even humans to me. It is about recognizing what is not ours to take, and trusting God to protect us.

AMEN!

 

[Quahom1]

- until the word changes we are all going to need a millitary. I don't think Jesus was talking about countries or nations- he was speaking to individuals and millitary service didn't seem to be a reason for not helping someone. Did he not heal a Centurians servant because of that mans great faith? The individual was more important than anything else, yes he may have wanted to change the world but he did it one person at a time... That's my thoughts, sorry to have intruded.

Indeed, the Lord did just that. And no greater faith did Jesus find in all the land, than that of a soldier...

v/r

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

I agree that our politicians are primarily in it for themselves and go with whatever is popular at the moment.

That said, I have the answer of why I personally do not back war and violence, and I have not been wishy-washy on the issue. I respect those in the military who are doing what they feel called to do. I disagree with it, but I respect them. However, I know enough about the military to know that it is not all people who are patriotic and honorable in their intentions. It also draws people who just want a paycheck and sometimes people who downright like violence.

The military is not monolithic and I can't support "it," only respect those within it that I believe are doing the best they can to do what they feel is right. And further, I have heard numerous military people in various interviews saying their primary questions are why they were sent to a war they cannot win, with little strategy to get them out at this point. I don't think all of them feel that support from the citizenry is keeping them there.

Perhaps the citizens are out of step with the military because we didn't get to vote to put them over there. This war has been controversial and supported by only half the population since it began, and some of that half was obviously delusionally thinking it would be easy to put democracy in place in Iraq, because now that it is apparent there is no easy, cheap solution that half is slowly waning. The mistake is not that the citizenry doesn't support the war, it is that the government did not listen to its citizenry. Polls conducted right at the start of the war indicated people as a whole would not be supportive if it lasted more than a year or two. This is a democracy- Bush et al should have listened to the people.

The American public IS often uneducated, but then the decision to invade Iraq was not based on a great deal of education either. In the long run, our reasons for going turned out to be unfounded (as in weapons of mass destruction, etc.) and, as many social scientists predicted, democracy would be incredibly difficult to "give" to a culture that doesn't have the historical precedent and isn't united in wanting it anyway.

Just because some of us (well, more than half of us) disagree with this war, and a smaller percentage of us disagree with ANY war, does not mean we are stupid or arrogant. We have just as much right to our choice and freedom to express it as those who are pro-war. And often, we have just as much educated reasons behind our decision.

Perhaps we should ask why our government chose military actions that they were warned would be unsuccessful, costly, and unpopular. Perhaps it is not the citizenry failing the military, but the government officials that chose to send them into such a situation. I think it begs the question... who is profiting from this war? Who had something to gain?

Let me tell you, the biggest "winners" in this war are not the Iraqis, the military, or the citizens of the U.S. There are some people who are getting rich off this war... who feel it is worth trading human lives for cash. And yet they are frequently perceived as being *supportive* of the military...

Are you sure?

What is the price of one life saved, let alone a family, or a dozen or a few hundred? Who determines who should live and who should die? You? Me? Our children...most likely. AND they opine that those over there deserve life, so they lay their lives on the line for them, because they learned that value from you and me (whether we accept it or not). This isn't our war. It is our childrens' war. And they have no intention of quitting...but they need our support, and we best not turn the other cheek...not for their sakes'.

The rest is up to us.

 

[Tariki]

What about the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth passage? I'm sure someone will bring that up, even though I usually don't agree with the OT God.

Just saw this thread and took a peep.Then I saw this. I remember once reading some book by a Jewish guy speaking of this "eye for an eye" verse that is usually referred to as some sort of divine justification for revenge or whatever. This guy said that the words appear more than once in the OT, and the context of one was where God is telling the Israelites how they must act and behave in the Promised Land. That the attitude of the Babylonians was that if a slave were to hit a Babylonian citizen - for instance - then perhaps ten slaves would be put to death as reprisal. The Israelites were not to be like this, they must have the attitude of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Therefore, the phrase is a call for equality of ALL before the law, not a call for revenge.

Given that, looking around the world, thinking of its history, a lesson still needing to be learnt. (Seem to remember reading somewhere that statistically, in the UK, a person is far more likely to receive a prison sentence - rather than "community work" - if belonging to an ethnic minority. Given the same crime)

 

[Prober]

The Israelites were not to be like this, they must have the attitude of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Therefore, the phrase is a call for equality of ALL before the law, not a call for revenge.

True. And then Jesus came to show an even better way.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: But whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5: 38, 39
(and, of course, read the whole thing)

There is something similar to this in the Koran

And Buddhists have (paraphrased): Seeing that all beings cringe in fear of death, therefore cause pain and suffering to come to none.

 

[pfw]

EYE FOR AN EYE- just a point to add to that which has already been said, I wanted to check I'd got the following right before posting it. This is quoting from 'The Complete Idiot's Guide To Understanding Judaism' by Rabbi Benjamin Blech (so I'm assuming he's speaking with some authority?) '...The Talmud makes clear that the intent is to fine a person who put out another's eye, to exact monetary retribution, not physical vengeance.' Why doesn't the text say money for an eye? 'a wealthy man hates his neighbor. He looks at the Bible and sees "money for an eye" and says to himself "I can afford it" and knocks the other guys eye out... it says "eye for an eye because that's what God says should be, based on strict justice...' Just thought it'd be interesting to show how the Jews interprited that law before us Christians came along and started telling them what they believe...

 

[wil]

It is my understanding that the eye for an eye was a determination of the maximum...ie someone steals your sneakers you don't shoot him for it, the penalty is not commenserate with the crime.

ie Iraq, 19 bombers from Saudi Arabia, trained by Al Queda, never stepped foot in Iraq...through a series of loose connections and sky is falling video from satelites the war machine wraps up...a couple years, hundreds of billions of dollars, thousands of 'coalition' lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian's lives later...it all continues.

We had some plan to cook dinner and buggered it up, have no ingredients left and have nothing to do but try to make something good out of what we've got...but it'll never be good.

I firmly believe if after the towers we tossed out a billion dollars for the arrest and capture of Osama...and asked the world to try him and his organization for crimes against humanity....He would have been captured, and the US would be standing tall in doing the right thing in a moment of grief....not retaliation and revenge and not attacking yet another country on pretense since we failed miserably in Afghanistan...

We've buggered it up, and we can't admit it. Folks laughed about the vietnam references 3 years ago... Today we shake our heads at the arrogance of 'mission accomplished'

Was Saddam a benevolent dictator...NO! Did he commit many crimes against his own people YES! But he is one on a long list...and spin as we may we no longer have any viable reason that we picked his country to set up.

We can make all the excuses that we want that turn the other cheek don't work. Truth is, war isn't working out so well either.

 

[pfw]

It is my understanding that the eye for an eye was a determination of the maximum...ie someone steals your sneakers you don't shoot him for it, the penalty is not commenserate with the crime.

</p>
That's it, exactly my understanding of an 'eye for an eye', but in better words. Can't argue with your point of view on the principle of pacifism but would argue that, for now, it's not going to work- Your idealism isn't niave tho- (as some might say)- it's the goal we should all be aiming for. Like all things worth while and worth attaining, it's NOT going to happen over night.